T49 - Tula Sector (Full Version)

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Oshawott -> T49 - Tula Sector (6/21/2014 12:18:30 AM)

T49 - Tula Sector

I open another pocket and tighten the noose. Supply for the Axis spear head is severely restricted.



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Oshawott -> T49 - South (6/21/2014 12:21:28 AM)

T49 - South

I have established to strong bridgeheads over the Dnepr at Dnepopetrovsk and further south. I will try to enlarge this bridgehead and entrench my troops.



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Oshawott -> T49 - Odessa (6/21/2014 12:22:45 AM)

T49 - Odessa

He tries to capture Odessa with strong forces but it holds. I switch out troops. Fort is reduced below 4.



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Oshawott -> T49 - Data (6/21/2014 12:24:06 AM)

T49 - Data

Air war was very active so I am also posting air losses.



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Oshawott -> T50 - Tula Sector (6/21/2014 12:34:35 AM)

T50 - Tula Sector

Mud again. He creates another tiny encirclement and there is nothing I can do about it. I keep units at the front line because I want to restrict supplies. Most of his spearhead will get very little supplies and replacements.




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Oshawott -> T50 - Data (6/21/2014 12:35:57 AM)

T50 - Data



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Oshawott -> T51 - Tula Sector (6/21/2014 12:49:47 AM)

T51 - Tula Sector

Mud again. He destroys some of the units in the pocket. I don't retreat. Supply is severely restricted.

Voronezh front arrives. I don't assign anything yet to this front but wait for 15th Air Army to arrive. The APs + the stockpiled APs are mostly spent on building Rifle Corps. I concentrate on building Guard Rifle Corps first. To create the best possible Rifle Corps I use two high morale guard divisions and one high morale rifle division. The best Rifle Corps I can create this way has 16 CV.



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Oshawott -> T51 - Data (6/21/2014 12:50:31 AM)

T51 - Data



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Oshawott -> T52 - Orel Sector (6/24/2014 8:18:56 PM)

T52 - Orel Sector

Screenshot before I move my troops. He seals the pocket again. Stacking of his units is problematic.



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Oshawott -> T52 - Orel Sector (6/24/2014 8:21:42 PM)

T52 - Orel Sector

Screenshot after my move. Two attacks against stacks of three units succeed with huge odds. A daring attack to open the pocket again fails. Those four divisions are officially dead.



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Oshawott -> T52 - South (6/24/2014 8:22:51 PM)

T52 - South

Working on my bridgehead over the Dnepr. Three Corps are across the river building fortifications.



[image]local://upfiles/46668/B1FA8A0007C3426FB2D7F9A0A458E875.jpg[/image]



Oshawott -> T52 - Odessa (6/24/2014 8:25:43 PM)

T52 - Odessa

Two Rifle Corps have been shipped into Odessa. This will make it virtually impossible to take the city. At the same time he has to use a large number of German divisions to contain the city.



[image]local://upfiles/46668/2F9BE408C65B41288755ECCD4F3F218B.jpg[/image]



Oshawott -> T52 - Air War (6/24/2014 8:27:19 PM)

T52 - Air War

I continually use my air assets. They only destroy a couple of tanks here or there but I still think it's very useful in the long run.



[image]local://upfiles/46668/D339B4AB884B433CA64B392B83540D1B.jpg[/image]



Oshawott -> T52 - Data (6/24/2014 8:27:52 PM)

T52 - Data



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Oshawott -> RE: T52 - Data (6/25/2014 1:29:14 AM)

I case you haven't noticed but I accidentally turned off air support for a couple of turns. [sm=scared0008.gif] I wonder if that third attack would have succeeded with air support.



jwolf -> RE: T52 - Data (6/25/2014 2:01:14 PM)

I make that kind of mistake with air support all the time. I usually turn off air support while cleaning out a pocket but then forget to turn it back on for the regular attacks, or some similar foul up.

Regarding Odessa, that should apply all the more with Sevastopol, correct? So once the Russians can make rifle corps, Sevastopol becomes invulnerable?



Oshawott -> RE: T52 - Data (6/25/2014 2:17:17 PM)

quote:

Regarding Odessa, that should apply all the more with Sevastopol, correct? So once the Russians can make rifle corps, Sevastopol becomes invulnerable?


I don't see how Sevastopol could fall with 3 Rifle Corps in it. Regarding Odessa I think there might be a chance if you attack with 9 divisions and as many pioneers as possible. Or maybe you attack multiple times with just 1 division and 3 pioneers just to get the fortification down. Once the fort is down to 0 you would have a much better chance of success.



loki100 -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/25/2014 5:51:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

T52 - Odessa

Two Rifle Corps have been shipped into Odessa. This will make it virtually impossible to take the city. At the same time he has to use a large number of German divisions to contain the city.



You've done a brilliant job of turning Odessa into a real pain for the Germans, would almost be worth it for Stef to try and muster the forces to storm the place, but guess he's pretty committed to trying to find some numerical advantage on the front lines



Oshawott -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/25/2014 6:04:18 PM)

quote:

would almost be worth it for Stef to try and muster the forces to storm the place, but guess he's pretty committed to trying to find some numerical advantage on the front lines


I think so too. Those 8 German infantry divisions are precious for offensive and defensive purposes. Put those divisions in level 3 forts on the front line and there is almost nothing I can do without Rifle Corps.



Flaviusx -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/25/2014 7:20:40 PM)

With 3 rifle corps in Odessa I'd say the place is impregnable. (Just ship one more in there to be sure.) This game, if nothing else, has demonstrated that Odessa absolutely needs to be taken in 1941. Letting it slide is bad news for the German.

He'll never get Sevastopol, either, now. Even if he could somehow clear the rest of the Crimea (doubtful, this game is showing clear signs of turning into a Soviet runaway. The Axis has rather botched the 42 offensive imo) you could simply drop more rifle corps into that place as well.

Oshawott has played brilliantly and taken advantage of clear Axis errors here. It's probably too late to fix those errors, now. Not just the Odessa business, but the entire 42 Axis offensive. It was poorly timed and poorly executed and was done in the wrong place and the wrong way.



STEF78 -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/25/2014 10:52:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This game, if nothing else, has demonstrated that Odessa absolutely needs to be taken in 1941. Letting it slide is bad news for the German.

Agreed, I won't make this error anymore
quote:


Oshawott has played brilliantly and taken advantage of clear Axis errors here. It's probably too late to fix those errors, now. Not just the Odessa business, but the entire 42 Axis offensive. It was poorly timed and poorly executed and was done in the wrong place and the wrong way.

I've made several errors.
- I allowed Oshawott too many successfull counterattacks in 1941
- I haven't find the good level of retreat/defence in blizzard period South of Briansk

And Oshawott is tactically a much better player than me.

Concerning may 1942 attack, I don"t agree with your statement.
1)Timing: Attacking early may was compulsory. Waiting for the 25th june to attack would have mean facing level 3 forts.
2)Execution: That's ok, my Pocket wasn't well executed but Oshawott's defence was smart with a lot of reserve activation and he had the good idea of retreating in front of Kharkov. Without reload and experience it's hard to realize the "Lvov's pocket" the first time....
3)The wrong place: my aim was to create successive mid size pockets and the place I choosed was the easiest to achieve this goal (no forest, no swamp). I had no intention of attacking directly to Voronezh
4)The wrong way: cf point 2, I don"t understand the difference between execution and way

This is my 7th GC campaign as GHC. I'm not a computer calculating each move or odd but I think that I'm able to conduct successfull attacks. This one failed so the facts speak for you. But I'm pretty sure that this game was already in bad shape for the german fall 1941. I was already behind the curve at this time and may 1942 is just the consequence of this poor 1941's campaign.

I was surely too confident in 1941 as I hadn't seen any AAR from Oshawott on the forum.

NEVER underestimate your opponent, hit hard and have no mercy






Flaviusx -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/25/2014 11:12:03 PM)

The timing was off because you didn't coordinate things with mud in mind. For example, that encirclement you executed. The very next turn following would be mud. The Soviet was therefore in a perfect position to throw the kitchen sink at it, break it up, and isolate some of your own units leaving you with no means to respond. You shouldn't have tried to do this encirclement in the first place given the weather sequence.

You also, as I have stated elsewhere, did it in the wrong place. The operation you mounted had only limited local significance even if it had worked. Your true strategic goal should have been to dislocate the very long Soviet line by striking south east towards the Sea of Azov and capturing or wrecking the rail junctions in the area, thus stranding the whole southern concentration. No encirclement was immediately necessary to do this. It would be a straightforward penetration timed to coincide with mud and leave several Soviet fronts stranded from the Dnepr bend south, with no means to flee east and trapped against the south. These could be corralled against the Crimea in due course. The eastern ukraine would then be opened up for further operations once the weather cleared up. You could even turn his flank and start munching away in a north easterly direction -- this would be the right time to conduct encirclements of a war winning nature.

So I object to what you did on larger strategic grounds. The opportunity to do this has now passed. You are decisively engaged in a battle of attrition with the Red Army that has to favor the Soviet.



Oshawott -> RE: T52 - Odessa (6/27/2014 3:06:10 AM)

Great strategy discussion. That's what the game is all about. I am withholding any judgement or final assessment because the battle is raging on with two players trying to outsmart each other.

I like the idea of pushing to the Sea of Azov and splitting the Russian front. I don't think it would allow any major encirclement because the Axis units are too weak. But the Axis might have been able to gain lots of space.

I understand why STEF78 tried an early encirclement. He didn't want to wait till June to face numerous Rifle Corps. However, the mud/clear transition was clearly not in his favor and caused a real catastrophe.

The main problem is that there is no infantry supporting the attack. The offensive thrust is almost entirely based on Panzer and Motorized Divisions with very low TOE.



Oshawott -> T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 3:07:24 AM)

T53 - Orel Sector

Mud. I am setting up a layered defense with Rifle Corps, Cavalry Corps and Tank Corps.



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Oshawott -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 3:07:48 AM)

T53 - Data


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Saper2229 -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 4:37:26 AM)

If you want take Odessa you must bombing port - easy to take it, Soviet cannot air cover it.



Flaviusx -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 4:43:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Saper222

If you want take Odessa you must bombing port - easy to take it, Soviet cannot air cover it.


This assumes no house rules to limit bombing.

For whatever it is worth I think the WitE air model is broken and can be abused to achieve any number of unrealistic things due to the fact that it is on demand. WitW is going to fix this, full stop, and adopt an entirely new air model. This model will be applied to WitE2, and change things dramatically. You will no longer be able to fly missions on demand. They will have to be planned out in advance and be executed in their own discrete phase. No more spam bombing.



Saper2229 -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 7:10:11 AM)

In war against strong defensiv target with see supply line was only 2 means - Naval and Air Flotte, not infantry. After cut supply - cupture ore retreat - that is historical.
Germany take Sevastopol, but the first - destroyed port and see supply.



Flaviusx -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/27/2014 10:02:13 AM)

Nothing historical about it. In real life Odessa held out until October of 41 and was successfully evacuated. Sevastopol fell to a good old fashioned assault after a 9 month siege. Leningrad was never cut off from supply via Lake Ladoga by airpower.

Nor did the Red Air Force do any better in the Baltic. The Kurland pocket held out until the end of the war; Konigsberg, like Sevastopol, fell to brutal assault not starvation. The record on both sides in interdicting sea supply is poor. This is just one of several ways in which the game vastly overstates airpower. (Strategic bombardment is just as grossly overstated, these being essentially tactical air forces that in game can perform feats beyond the means of Bomber Command or 8th Air Force.)

Air model is bad. If you want to abuse it, go ahead, but don't pretend this is historical.



Oshawott -> RE: T53 - Orel Sector (6/28/2014 2:03:20 AM)

I am not sure what I am missing. To me it seems very hard to bomb a level 15 port. You would have to get it down to 6%. Repair rate of a port is 3% per turn so that doesn't help either. Bombing the port would take time and cause massive bomber losses.

He just started bombing the port this turn (T59). 60+ bombers lost for 3% damage. I have 3 PVO regiments in the city. I have noticed however that the 85 mm AA guns don't fire at all. Only the 37 mm. That seems odd. Does anyone know why this is the case?



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