RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (Full Version)

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DoubleDeuce -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 2:36:33 PM)

I'm doing everything I can to avoid downloading this for now because it'll only end up slowing me down on the already slow progress of my Silver Lions campaign. [:(]



Tazak -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 2:54:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: W1ll14m

I just released the map (58MB zip file including both plain and satellite graphics - the maps is as large as four normal maps)



58mb zip file, damn cant wait to get home and see what mb the actual map is, and at 4x larger I smell a NATO division size action [8D]



Mad Russian -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 6:28:01 PM)

What I smell are scenarios so big that the normal machine won't run them.

Good Hunting.

MR



Tazak -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 6:31:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What I smell are scenarios so big that the normal machine won't run them.

Good Hunting.

MR

the PC market is fairly low at present so a good time to go and buy that upgrade [:D], will likely have to scale things down but already have a few ideas



harry_vdk -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 8:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What I smell are scenarios so big that the normal machine won't run them.

Good Hunting.

MR


With the forces from the "NL_BS Thors Hammer" its run without problems. intel i5-2540m
[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/89374464/FlashPoint/ntc_central_corridor%201.jpg[/image]

But the german landscape [;)]

Why are there bridges?
[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/89374464/FlashPoint/ntc_central_corridor%202.jpg[/image]

But I have a serious question to:
How to handle with the HQs on this type or large maps and how to have a working command cycle?



hazmaxed -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 8:32:03 PM)

The NTC certainly has enough space to have division-sized forces fighting each other. Units that went there to train in the 1980s and 1990s were typically of brigade(-) size;  usually 2 battalion-sized manuever task forces with attached artillery, engineers, ADA, MI, and Forward Support Battalion elements.  One task force would do force-on-force against the resident OPFOR, an MRR.  The other task force would do the live fire exercise.  After about a week to 10 days, the 2 TFs would switch places.



WildCatNL -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/26/2014 9:57:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: harry_vdk

Why are there bridges?



Those bridges are created by units crossing the yellow border into "inaccessible areas".

The yellow borders (dashed lines) rendered on the map indicate barriers to vehicles. The barriers aim to prevent units from driving to the top of a mountain, or up the side of a canyon. The barriers make it critical to control key mountain passes in your maneuvers.
Lacking true barriers in Flashpoint Campaigns 2.0x, I've followed up on the developer's suggestion: terrain on the high side of the barriers is first covered with an invisible stream (at the yellow border) and subsequently by "9" mobility restrictions.

I've had this bridging happen with some support units in the rear (a HQ, and some SP artillery) for reasons I don't understand. The good news is, however, that it doesn't impact the battle. Front line units do avoid the hills and fight for / bottle up in the passes.

Thanks for running tests, and making available this scenario to all.

William



TAKODA -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 8:06:58 AM)

harry_vdk thanks for uploading the scenario, and thanks W1ll14m for the glorious map.



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 9:25:18 AM)

Where is Harry_vdk's scenario, anyone? Can't find it.



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 9:33:46 AM)

Scratch that. Found it. Just loaded up the scenario with the satellite version. Incredible. THIS is all the developers need to do to improve the graphics in the game I think. The map is superb, very realistic feel, great immersion. [&o]William! If only all the maps could be like this. As someone commented in one of the other threads on improving the game via better graphics - it's a serious game so give it serious graphics - well, this is it. This looks like a map for a military simulation. Really superb in terms of improving the feel of the game.

Froze/crashed on my system, by the way, within about 5 mins, though I guess that's the size of the map to blame. I too have an i5, decent graphics card and ram etc. I suspect MR is right about 'normal' machines struggling with it, though will test further....



TAKODA -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 2:02:55 PM)

phoenix I just want to add my support to your comment on the map, I believe this is the best direction to go for this game, the map feels authentic, really immersive. Hope to see more maps made like this.



pekische -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 2:58:20 PM)

I have the same opinion. This is a great map and moves the feeling from the game towards right atmosphere! Thx William and Harry_vdk!



harry_vdk -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 7:16:52 PM)

my part was only 15 minutes, just a small trial how this map work. All the credits are for William and the maker(s) of "NL_BS Thors Hammer".



WildCatNL -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 9:43:39 PM)

Thanks for all the feedback!

Just keep in mind the following (and Mike GER also mentioned that in a similar discussion in Plodder's thread):
The map looks beautiful because the terrain itself is beautiful, the map is featureless, and the rendering is designed to emphasize the terrain. This approach won't work well for dull terrain (Desert Storm's 73 Easting, Medina Ridge - that's pancake flat terrain), and for terrain with many features (Western-Europe, with terrain full of villages, fields, and forests).

The one other interesting location which could shine with this map style is Golan Heights (the Northern Front in the Yom Kippur war, 1973).

William



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/27/2014 9:53:36 PM)

Well, I hear what you say, William, but I bet you're wrong. I think it would be fine for pancake flat terrain because it would still have in there all the info you needed. As for Western Europe, I can't envisage it because the terrain features are so different, but I would crave something like this (in terms of what it delivers) for the Germany maps - ie something that looked like a military map instead of a game - and I'm sure if anyone can do this with these techniques, it's you!



MikeGER -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 3:10:43 PM)

phoenix, i know what you are looking for. [;)]
well, i have good mapdata of whole North Rhine-Westphalia in 1:50 000 scale (to print me hiking/biking maps with overlays n' such)

here i 'extracted' map-data with parts of wellknown Sennelager (speeking of local NTCs ;-)) and an relief overlay
...and shrinked the picture to the fitting 500m = 64 pixel resolution for the 'artistic map'-militarystyle-example
(i kept the margin with the kilometer scale)

the problem is an mostly automated way to get all the underlying map values for the game correct
...and you see the map is crowded with detail.

I dunno if that would be 'fun' to actually plan your tactics on this one ...if you're not doing it for a living dressed in BDU

[image]local://upfiles/37433/B2EED2501AF740F69BB87E734362A338.jpg[/image]



MikeGER -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 3:30:27 PM)

and here is a 'Zoom in' of the map data before the lines and text start get 'pixelated' to show the resolution of the data

William, if you like to make use of the data CD somehow, feel free to pm me

[image]local://upfiles/37433/A19557AC2E8741B7B050C3A5C826E964.jpg[/image]



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 3:32:06 PM)

Thanks Mike. I think it would be great, if it were possible to mesh the underlying map values, about which I know absolutely nothing. is it possible? I would love it. Looks like the 'real world'! Anyone else want to play on a map like that?? It's possible that it would be better if some detail (clutter) were removed, but I wouldn't mind the detail, I think. I'd certainly say it's better by far than the vanilla graphics, for me. I might be too sensitive to how things look, perhaps, because4 I would never have bought this game if I hadn't already fished around the forum and found that both William and The Plodder had produced fantastic alternative maps. The vanilla look put me off that much. Preceisely because it looked like a counter game, a board game, and I'm not into them at all and never have been. Many people have a different approach, of course (love board games), and (I assume) that the game itself is really just a more complex kind of board game, but it's still crucial for me that it doesn't look like that, that it looks more like a kind of simulation of some sort. 'Crucial' in terms of deciding where to put my money between competing alternatives, I mean.



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 3:38:40 PM)

The way the above map does forest is spot on for me, by the way. No need for elaborate graphics - just a few 'tree shapes' and colour it green.

It's interesting how clear the elevations are on the big map - not just the hills to the top right, but the river valleys too, though this seems to reduce (this clarity) in your zoom map. The zoomed map looks flatter.



WildCatNL -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 6:45:57 PM)

MikeGER, phoenix:
great discussion, but not the right thread. And I'm not fancying a Germany map right now, with hardly any scenario published for the Braunschweig map, and just one for the NTC Central Corridor.

HOWEVER, if you're really serious about it, and if you have some computer skills, I can show you how to create these maps yourself. I happen to have written a rough draft on "How to Create FCRS Maps from GIS Data", 47 pages at present, using the Osnabrueck as a running example. The document might help you create the maps you fancy. In return, help me improve the document, so all of us are going to benefit. And we can do so in a separate thread.
ALTERNATIVELY, help me by creating scenarios for this Central Corridor map, and I'll return the favor with some proper map values for Sennelager or similar.

William



MikeGER -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 6:55:50 PM)

phoenix, i have a little gift for you [:)]
well, its a crude first try (i am lacking the graphics software and fumbled it together with Paint

[image]http://i61.tinypic.com/2wemf6s.jpg[/image]

this is the first try of a Topo 50 version of the FC_RS "FPC Interactive Map"
(i found out that my data pool is covering this scenario and so i tried to capture (copy and paste from the Topo map viewer program) the right area in the right scale

i would have liked to check the underlying map values and would have like to have this overlay in the FC-RS Editor and somehow load the according original Fp9 file to check on the congruence
(maybe the artistic map has to be stretched a few percent and shift around a 200 m for better fit to the Fp9 data)

at least you can roughly test-play on a "German Topo Map" with Fp9 data from vanilla underneath [:)]

i uploaded the zip with png.file to the "3rd Party Maps – Custom" folder on the OTS website


- oops -
Admin, please move the 'German map discussion posts' to a new thread



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 9:46:30 PM)

That's a beautiful map, Mike. Thanks. THAT is what I would like to play on, if it could be made to work!

As far as making maps goes, I have no computer skills in that respect (or any other). I haven't fiddled with any editors in this game yet, haven't a clue how to make a scenario to test play anything. I'm new to this game. I've played a lot of Command Ops and can put together scenarios in that (well, tinker with existing ones, more like), but I played that for many years before I got round to even opening the manual to look at what the editors could do. So won't be able to help, William, sorry. I can take your creations, use them, enjoy them, provide feedback and gratitude (even money, if it came to buying them [;)]), but as far as FCRS goes, at the moment, I'm a consumer, a player, not a creator. I will grab this map, Mike, and load it as FP9 and see what it looks like, however. Thanks again.



cbelva -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 9:59:43 PM)

The hardest part of making a map like that work is coding the rivers. They have to be placed on a hex line. It is possible, but you will probably have many hex lines that do not that will not match up exactly.



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/28/2014 10:12:36 PM)

Well, I had to go into the scenario editor for the first time to try out this map. Pic below. The editor is brilliant. I made a crap, tiny scenario, played it out. I think probably the underlay didn't much match the overlay. But it looked great. I guess if you have to twist rivers round hexes etc then it won't look quite so good.

[image]local://upfiles/36260/C33BF943CFB34EACBB73B670756B1FB2.gif[/image]



Mad Russian -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 2:27:17 AM)

That was a huge leap for you Phoenix!! It's hard to imagine just how easy this editor is until you go in and put something together.

Good Hunting.

MR



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 7:55:37 AM)

quote:

It's hard to imagine just how easy this editor is until you go in and put something together.


Very true, MR. Very intuitive and easy.

So what would I do now, Mike - to make bridges, rivers and roads line up? Is this when I have to read William's 47 page doc?......

And - can anyone tell me - is there already a scenario that uses this map (the FPC Interactive Map)? I couldn't find one, hence had to crack open the editor.



MikeGER -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 8:42:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

The hardest part of making a map like that work is coding the rivers. They have to be placed on a hex line. It is possible, but you will probably have many hex lines that do not that will not match up exactly.

Exactly !

Phoenix,
in the meantime I had loaded the map in the scenario editor
(i placed the Topo-map renamed to "FPC Interactive Map.jpg" in the Custom folder first and then loaded the "WL_3rd Red Banner Slam" Scenario)

here i could check on the roads, rivers, and elevation, ...

My Topo Map is not fitting all to well to the existing Fp9 game data underneath:

- 1. i didn't got the area and scale pinpointed good enuf to the vanilla hex map the Fp9 data is based on

- 2. the vanilla map is an 'artist interpretation' of the real landscape
feature in the real landscape could have been shifted a few hundred meters ... which has zero impact on gameplay and fun on the vanilla map!
(or on a modders map, that changes the hex art-style)
but it breaks immersion on that Topo map ...esp. if a bridge is a hex or two to the south ...and a hilltop a hex to east n'such sometimes

so Phonix and FPRS-gamers, who download the map, just see it as a 'concept study'

and even if it would fit better, their is always false expectation triggered that the AI 'see's' all the cute details in the map and make actually use of it.
And the 'tactical AI' of your own units also will act 'showhow stupid' on such a map too
...for the game engine its still just a grid of 500m hexes, with four 'single digit numbers' describing its type



Phoenix100 -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 8:56:12 AM)

Ah. So you can just mix and match scenarios to maps? is that what you mean, Mike? You made a scenario with your map and a scenario that was designed for another map?



MikeGER -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 9:18:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Ah. So you can just mix and match scenarios to maps? is that what you mean, Mike? You made a scenario with your map and a scenario that was designed for another map?



AFAIK No ...you can alter an existring one or make one from scratch.

- - - -

to anser your other question about: "How to get the TopoMap fuctioal?"

First i would study the "FPC Modding Guide 1 Maps and Map Values.pdf"

AFAIK, you would load my Topo map straight into the FCRS Map Values editor
and there you have to enter/paint all the 5 values that describe a hex by hand for every single hex,
(forget about the autoscan-function, the Topo map has not the right colors/structure to use editors autodetection)

you mark the roads, mark the rivers (hindrance) you have to set an elevation, a LOS hindrance, and mobility hindrance number
as you see 'would fit as an average' for the hex under the highlighted green 'hex cursor'



TAKODA -> RE: new map: NTC Ft. Irwin (8/29/2014 9:39:47 AM)

Is it possible to pull and stretch a map picture (for example the random map picture below) with image software to suit the hexes? What I mean is can a picture like this be pushed and pulled to suit the hex tiles?
[image]http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Pyramid/China/China_Giza_002_1800.png[/image]



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