Alternative History: The Great War that didn't happen

Alternative History: The Great War that didn't happen (Full Version)

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markb50k -> Alternative History: The Great War that didn't happen (5/6/2014 10:17:38 PM)
August 26th, 1939 A mere couple of days after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, as Germany is preparing to invade Poland, a group of non-aligned European nations sent ambassadors to Berlin to plead for a new set of talks, aimed at lowering the escalating tensions in Europe. Perhaps overzealous in their quest for peace, the nations of Sweden, Switzerland, Yugoslavia, Denmark, and Norway made concessions to Germany and promised increasing trade preference to Germany for vital strategic resources. The promise of gold bullion from Switzerland was especially enticing, and to the surprise of the German High Command, Hitler sent out a 'stand down' order to his Field Marshals. September 1st, 1939 Alarms are raised in Moscow as NOTHING happens on the agreed upon day of invasion. Stalin demands action from Hitler and proceeds to continue his own preparations for combat. September 3rd, 1939 British Intelligence intercepts portions of the Soviet/German argument, and 'leaks' the information to a London Times reporter, suggesting that they catch the Soviet ambassador in London and ask him to explain this new rumor of impending hostilities. The Soviet ambassador to Germany is interviewed after a grand opening at the London Ballet of a Tchaikovsky favorite: "Mr Ambassador, your thoughts on this rumor of a coming war with Poland???" .... "The German nation is the vilest of criminals and will see very soon the cost of betraying Mother Russia!" "But what of the cost of war, Mr Ambassador? Surely the Polish people deserve an answer?"... .... "Poland means and deserves NOTHING. Germany deserves what it will get, and any nation that stands with it shall feel the same wrath"...

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/6/2014 10:58:39 PM)
The above post describes the moment in history where a divergence happened. Suffice it to say that in this alternate timeline the Soviet Union and Germany begin ratcheting up the rhetoric as the world starts taking sides. Word gets out of the promises made to Germany and harsh calls of appeasement ring from Britain and France. Additionally, Stalin threatens old rivals Finland and Rumania for land grabs. Germany uses the scandalous behavior of Russia and the chiding by the Western Allies to paint themselves as victim and champion for the all nations that have felt the heavy hand of the elite and victorious powers from the First World War. Amazingly, and to the horror of the West, Germany's power bloc grows faster politically than it might have militarily. Isolationist attitudes in the US even allow for the emergence of an alliance of South American nations into the vacuum in support of Germany. Who will stand against the burgeoning Third Reich?

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/6/2014 11:31:35 PM)
Commonwealth Poland Ireland Belgium Greece Yemen Nepal Tibet + 1939 possessions France + 1939 possessions China + 1939 possessions Soviet Union Afghanistan Baltic minors Mongolia + 1939 possessions United States Mexico Venezuela Central America Cuba and Caribbean minors Liberia + 1939 possessions That's it. The rest of the world is aligned to the Axis powers I will post a save game in May 1940 that folks can use as a starting point. The nations aren't really setup strategically so I plan on using the rest of 1940 to do initial setup and proper positioning for a kick off on January 1941. Why then? By that time the US production multiple will be a bit more comparable to the Axis production. Basically the Axis will be much better caught up My AAR will take us through this no attack setup period so we can see just how different this game will require me to be with such a vastly difference starting state of the world. Should be fun. Hopefully you folks will think so too

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 10:45:39 AM)
Optional Rules: - no partisans - no oil - no HQ movement penalty - no food in flames - extended game length (especially necessary since the game is starting late) [image]local://upfiles/12574/FB0E73A5F14A418BB0727011CF5D7FEE.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 11:18:02 AM)
So, in the next few posts, I want to show the layout of all the forces, and ask for some ideas on how to set up strategically for the first turn. But first here are the rules I am following since the Sep/Oct 1939 turn until now... - in the normal game, the political climate protects the Soviet Union early on, who are way outnumbered. But in this scenario, the Soviets can be attacked on Turn 1. To help them, due to DOWs all of the Soviet reserves have been called out, but I wanted to give them a little more strength, so GLOBALLY I have been allowing all the major powers to build all their militias (MILs). At this point, all MILs are built. - I also allowed the major powers to build their territorials out as well. At this point, France and Britain still have a couple to build. - I haven't decided on this yet, but I am considering letting each major power start building synth plants during this time, because at this point, they are just throwing away their BPs each turn, and there are 4 more turns until the war starts. Here is the save game for the May/Jun 1940 turn. This is what I will be doing from this point until the 1941, recommend anyone else trying this out to consider these... - 'manufacture' long turns by keeping the weather good and giving each sides as many impulses as possible to move things around - freely utilize HQ reorganization during this time to keep TRS and AMPHs moving, since there is no threat of combat. 4 turns may not be enough to move all your forces overseas to exactly where you want. Also consider Naval impulses and breaking down corps to give you more naval transport capabilities.

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 11:26:42 AM)
Here are the Axis convoys already setup during the prior turns: - currently the Iraqi and Persian oil has nowhere to go. I have put down some convoys in the East Med but they are idle right now. A single hex in Syria is preventing this oil from flowing, so that will be one of the first targets for the Axis. Most likely Turkey will be tasked with this objective. - in the Baltic, the factories in Sweden lessen the number of resources needing to be sent overseas. I put 6 there as overkill - Spain, which has been aligned to Italy, has to convoy 1 resource via the West Med to Italy. That will not be needed when/if southern France can be captured. - The Netherlands (and the NEI) have aligned with Germany, so currently I have setup a trade agreement between Germany and Japan for the 4 NEI oil. Will show the trade agreements soon. [image]local://upfiles/12574/746D4A0771D9407F86849D60FC86D239.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 11:38:49 AM)
Allied convoy setup so far: - with Spain and Portugal in Axis hands, the Allies are keeping Cape St Vincent empty. Using this setup, right now a total of 15 resources (from caribbean and the USA) will be flowing to the UK during wartime, 6 (from Africa and Br Guyana) to France, and 7 (from US and the UK) to the Soviets (probably BPs). 6 convoy points are being held in reserve in Belfast. Any NEW convoys built will, if possible, try to up the French flow. - I learned in my last game that having 4 convoys in the Caspian Sea to take resources from Baku to the rest of Russia is essential, so I put the starting 3 Soviet convoys in there. [image]local://upfiles/12574/88CB969FC4A0443090E2DF23728AA6C3.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 11:44:31 AM)
trade agreements: - French Indochina to China by rail - CW (South Africa, North Rhodesia, Belgian Congo, and British Guyana) to France - NOT SHOWN: US will be giving 10 resources to CW. US and Germany are not at war yet, since I want to hold off on the War Appropriations time-clock starting until right before the war starts (probably Nov/Dec turn). As mentioned in my last post, the convoys to support this agreement are in place already. - Germany giving the 4 NEI oil to Japan [image]local://upfiles/12574/BC52310FB214473AA8E6D9B905A36D33.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 11:55:22 AM)
Germany production planning: - notice that Germany has a lot of idle factories right now. The display shows 27 being used but it actually is 28 because 1 resource in Germany is under an enemy ZOC. At some point before the war starts (likely the next chance Germany gets), the Germans will put a unit on that hex on the Belgian border. That still leaves 8 idle factories. - all of the South American idle resources will likely stay that way. At this point, the Axis doesn't want to put the effort to establish a convoy line from South America to Europe. It's blocked anyway by Gibraltar and Suez. At least they aren't in Allied hands, yet. - The 6 middle east oil. Well, 4 of them, once that rail line is secured in Syria, will flow. The Saudi one and the Persian one not connected to railways will probably not flow to Germany until the Germans take the Caucasus and get a land rail line all the way to Germany - Keep in mind that Poland is still in Allied hands so those could be resources quickly added to Germany once the war starts [image]local://upfiles/12574/43E63DE168A04A66AB2DB58F2F377A3A.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:00:17 PM)
Italy production planning: - pretty straightforward. Italy has aligned Portugal, Spain, and Yugoslavia in something of a 'Southern European Hegemony'. So, Italy has plenty of factories, but not enough resources. 2 resources, 1 from Spain and 1 from Sardinia are convoyed through the Mediterranean. Those convoys will be open targets for the Allied navies, as will Southern France for Spain and Italy. We'll see who closes the gap first. [image]local://upfiles/12574/2A4A7DD4296C457EBB18CBD0D067C248.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:09:04 PM)
Japan production planning: - again, pretty straightforward. Japan still has 5 idle factories, although those 4 NEI oil definitely help. Phillipines and French Indochina will be first on the list probably, although I haven't worked out initial strategies yet. But remember, they'll be already at war with no surprise impulse to do major invasions everywhere. Depending on where the US sets up, Phillipines may be a tough nut to crack. - about the only thing maybe saving Japan is the fact that the US will likely have to take care of the South American problem before getting fully in the war. That may give them time to do what they can. - in total, it seems that China will likely survive intact, as Japan will not get a bunch of turns of freedom to hit them. [image]local://upfiles/12574/EF79165B4003423793CCF7B535FF5CA3.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:11:13 PM)
China production planning: - nothing much to note here other than the French resource getting China up to full strength resource wise [image]local://upfiles/12574/FD4724EBD60748B0B42B861C6BBD70AE.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:12:47 PM)
NOTE: any saved BPs you see here are just in case I decide to allow major powers to start their synth plants. No major powers will have any save BPs stored up when the war starts.

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:18:15 PM)
Commonwealth production planning: - I show the idle factories here. All the ones in the UK will not be idle once the war starts since the US will be providing an additional 5 resources per turn for the 5 idle UK factories. - The Polish factories and Belgium factories will likely be taken or isolated very quickly on the initial turns (I think), so the CW is not counting on those BPs at all. Any that survive for a limited time will be a bonus. [image]local://upfiles/12574/8FBB857ADC6D4B6AA7870B118AF0E07F.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:22:47 PM)
France production planning: - I really have no idea how long France will survive in this game. Heck if Germany goes for Russia first, France may survive the war. This is how crazy this game could be. - right now the French are not putting any effort into getting the Algerian resource. With Italy belligerent to start and Spain, Switzerland, and Italy already at their borders, they will be doing all they can to protect the home turf. [image]local://upfiles/12574/E112892A54C943509507CCEE1782F755.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:25:31 PM)
USA production planning: - they are maxed out on resources, and with Venezuela and Mexico aligned, they are even stronger than they normally are. They have surplus resources (11 not counting the Phillipines) to give out to Allies - Phillipines resource will stay idle. Doesn't make sense to try to bring that home as that will be a warzone on turn 1. [image]local://upfiles/12574/262843EA66764C9B9BC17527C9FA015B.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:28:17 PM)
USSR production planning: - with no Neutrality Pact with Germany, the Soviets are full-up on resources. With no surprise impulse for the Axis, how different will this war be? [image]local://upfiles/12574/D3167A0184DF4AC39E5B1C59B5740180.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 12:42:56 PM)
Before I start talking strategy, would like to ask folks for some advice here... My first thought would be that each country can setup any way they want, as long as they stay in their own home country.. but, that's not so easy of an answer.. - should Japan be allowed to pre-move more forces to China or Manchuria, or even Siam for an invasion of Burma? - should the CW be able to preposition forces in Kuwait or Egypt? - should the US be able to setup in Phillipines? - how about cooperation? Should the US be able to move forces to France during this setup? Or the BEF to Belgium since its aligned? Or the Soviets into Poland? Or can the Swedes have a force setup in Finland to assist in the attack on Russia? In other words, do I treat this as if time has really passed by and it really is 1941, and the major powers have had a full year to get ready? Or do I keep everyone more restricted as per how their forces were initially aligned in 1939, just time-warped to 1941? Its really a gameplay decision, and I wanted to hear people's thoughts.. My fear is, with say Spain already in the war, shouldn't France have the chance to bring in their army units from abroad prior to hostilities? And stuff like that.. Heres a pic to get the thoughts running... [image]local://upfiles/12574/E401BE3785534B1788D69B26E57E365A.jpg[/image]

AxelNL -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 1:40:44 PM)
Interesting experiment. I think that Japan will suffer in China, I have seen once China left alone and what it than can do with the ChiComs. So I would suggest Japan to setup more in China already.

WarHunter -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 2:09:50 PM)
Agreed on Japan sending more overseas. Both to China, Manchuria and any Pacific areas they expect to be aggressive in. The US should protect US overseas territories. Especially, Panama, Wake, Hawaii, Midway and Dutch Harbor. It would not be out of the question to send 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 Corp, 1 Marine div to the Philippines. The CW should send forces to the Middle East. These should be English. Leave the CW forces in their respective nations until war is declared. No US troops to France before war. No USSR to Poland. Swedes with a small force on the Finnish border to help would be plausible. Maybe spread out some Soviet forces along its entire border. Also build some Forts for the planned "Stalin Line". Also forts for Japan in some, islands like Truk. Good Luck in your game. Always did like alternate histories stories. [:)]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/7/2014 7:56:01 PM)
ok, well from your guys feedback and my own preferences, I think I am determining some guidelines for how I do the setup. 1. I will follow the setup order of the original game. In other words, France sets up before Germany, so Germany will set up strategically already knowing how France is set up. Its kinda hard to do that with all sides moving during these 'pre-war' impulses but I will follow that as a guideline. USA USSR Italy China CW France Japan Germany 2. Major powers can only move to hexes that they control. i.e. no US units in France. But this does allow CW to preposition folks in their possessions. At this point, this does include align countries. 3. Other rules/guidelines: - Germany can only preposition in Europe. - Italy can preposition anywhere they control - US can only preposition in Phillipines or Western Hemisphere - CW can preposition anywhere they control, but only UK forces - France can preposition to any of its 1939 possessions - USSR can preposition within their home country and aligned minors - Japan can preposition within anywhere they control, but only Japanese forces - minor nations can only preposition within their own country We'll see how that works. I'll start posting strategy options per country, in setup order. First up USA

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 2:32:33 PM)
UNITED STATES Looked over the map and determined that it is vital to establish a credible defense in the Philippines, and strategic islands throughout the Pacific. The other major area of concern is the only American foothold in South America: Venezuela. The US knows the Axis cannot reinforce South America, so although it will take some time to neutralize the Axis production base in Brazil/Argentina, what forces they have there are likely all that could possibly be there. So overall strategy for the US will be to get the following units to the following locations. I am pretty sure the US can make all these naval moves by war start (if not, I may have to start over and start moving things around earlier in the game): Mexico 2-4 CAV Mexico 2-3 MIL Mexico Philippines 2-2 TERR Manila 2-3 INF DIV 6-3 MIL New York Pearl Harbor 4-3-2 Nimitz 5-3 MIL Los Angeles main fleet Dutch Harbor 3-2 MIL Mexico small fleet Panama 2-4 CAV Panama (ready to invade Colombia) 3-2 MIL Panama Venezuela 2-2 MIL Venezuela 2-3 MIL New Orleans 3-2 MIL Washington 3-3 MIL Atlanta Pago Pago 4-3 MIL Chicago Midway 4-3 INF Mexico South American Invasion (prepositioned in US ports) 5-4-3 MacArthur 5-4 MOT Mexico 8-5 MOT 1-5 ENG 3-4 ART 3-4 AT 6-4 MAR invasion fleet

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 4:17:35 PM)
SOVIET UNION The Soviets are in a bit of a pickle here with all borders threatened by the Axis. After building out there MILs and getting their reserves on the ground, they at least have some numbers. Also, Poland will face the brunt of the initial Axis attack and with no surprise impulse, may even take some of the Germans with them. I wont go into such detail with the Axis powers, as part of the reason I am writing this down is so I have an in-place strategy for the Allies so that the Axis can plan off of that since they have last setup. Leningrad 5-1 GARR 5-1 GARR Murmansk 5-3 INF 4-3 MIL Vladivostok area 3 CAV corps 1 CAV div 1 MIL Far East/Irkutsk 1 MIL 1 CAV Mongolia Turkmenistan (guarding interior from Persia 4-3 MIL 4-4 MTN Afghanistan Caucasus (Tiflis/Baku) guarding against Turkey 5-3 MIL 5-3 MIL 6-3 INF 3-5 CAV 5-3 INF Sevastapol/Black Sea ports 2-2 MIL 3-2 MIL 3-3 MIL Bessarabia/Ukraine defense 1-3 ENG 2-3 AT 2-3 MIL 2-5 CAV 4-1 GARR 4-2 ARTY 4-2 MIL 4-3 INF 5-2-2 HQ 5-2 MIL 6-2 MIL 6-6 MECH Baltics/Minsk defense (will move into Poland and try to throw a wrench in German attack) 1-4 DIV 2-2 MIL 2-3 AA 3-2 ARTY 3-3 MIL 4-2 MIL 5-4 Siberian 5-4 Siberian 6-3 MIL 6-3 INF 6-4 Siberian 7-2 MIL 7-4 INF 7-4 Siberian 7-6 MECH 8-5-4 HQ This force will be the one most likely to do counterattacks early on.

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 4:24:30 PM)
CHINA Chinas defense is a bit more aggressive since, with the US in the war, and the USSR too, they are assuming Japan can't make an all-out strategy in China. Take a look at the general setup here. A couple of units in the rear are making their way forward but this is pretty much how it will end up. IGNORE Japanese setup as that hasn't been looked at will likely change greatly based on the Chinese defense. Northern China [image]local://upfiles/12574/1D7A032727A84D93B7E989BC076217B3.jpg[/image]

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 4:25:00 PM)
CHINA Southern Setup [image]local://upfiles/12574/BA1F9C0A08414113B8273A573CF0E3C8.jpg[/image]

Ingtar -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 6:09:26 PM)
If China is quiet for two years and there is no war, rather than reinforcing the Pacific, the US is more likely to continue mothballing ships and reducing forces to continue to fight the Great Depression. That was the thinking at the time, at least.

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 6:35:06 PM)
Good point. My first answer would be that we all accept that this is a 'what-if' scenario just being done for the fun of it. I am assuming that the war in China had kept going during whatever time period I am simulating having past, it just was mired in stalemate. Keep in mind, that I would have preferred having this scenario start in Sept/Oct 1939, and the ONLY reason I am waiting until 1941 is a game-mechanic due to the US production going up so quickly too fast. So even though the date on the game would show 1941, I am considering only a month or two passing from the historical start date and playing it as such.

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/8/2014 7:10:25 PM)
FYI, since I am still in setup I am probably going to start over before I get too far, and just artificially limit US production. The way I am currently going, US production will be at 1941: 1.25 1942: 1.50 1943: 1.75 If I artificially limit the US's BPs, throwing away the extra, and start the game as soon as I can get everything setup, instead of arbitrarily waiting until 1941, I can implement a house-rule to US production, limiting the US to a .50 instead of 1.25 in 1940. That would start the war probably only 2 or 3 turns later than normal. I'm going to give that a shot. Strategies above would still be valid.

WarHunter -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/9/2014 3:45:02 AM)
Looks like you have quite the Alternate ww2 scenario going on. What do you expect the outcome to be as its played out? Any goals in particular for specific nations?

markb50k -> RE: Alternative History: The Great War of 1941 (5/9/2014 10:26:07 AM)
I'm sure some of the experienced players around here already have thoughts on how this war will go, but I still haven't finished a full game of MWIF, or WIF for that matter, so honestly I have no idea. I just wanted to see new strategies play out with countries that usually don't get a lot of action. I really hope it ends up making the game MORE fun, not less, but balance is a pretty touchy thing and I hope I haven't tipped things too far in any side's direction. I don't think I have, but bringing in the US so early is the big factor. I think overall, though, that Japan and Russia are in more trouble than they normally are, and CW is a more likely target for invasion with so many European powers (especially with TRS assets) are aligned against them.

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