NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (Full Version)

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chazz -> NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 4:58:36 PM)

A B-17 formation attacked a Japanese port; intercepted by one Claude. Said Claude drove off 3 B-17s.

Bullcrap.

Generally speaking, when Japanese fighters mixed it up with B-17's they had their butts handed to them in a high hat.



richlove -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:20:45 PM)

Usual questions: Morale of the B-17s? Combat report? Experience of their pilots? Leader stats? Weather? Same questions for the Claude group.

You say 'generally speaking' but are surprised when the opposite happens. How many times have you had a near-identical situation and the B-17s DID drive off the fighters?



Erkki -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:27:53 PM)

Drove off how? I've never seen 4Es turn back. I think its in the code... If they have enough morale to fly they'll go all the way.

I've seen an A5M4 shoot down a B-17D once, it was over Bedeloap in a head-on attack. Nice shooting Tex!



chazz -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:35:02 PM)

Well, they did. The combat report said "element of such and such group turns back".

I had no idea that B17 E pilots were so akin to Italian infantry after 2nd Alamein. Morale for one group is 49, the other 52. Commanders have +50 inspiration, leadership. Didn't matter, I sacked them both after that. I doubt that it will make a difference.

Too bad you can't disband the group and send them all to Nome "per encourage les autres."

Sorry....I had to vent.

But it's still B.S.



Yaab -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:39:21 PM)

Consider: a low morale group of B-17s against Claudes. Claudes use frontal attacks against the 4Es. Early B-17s have only ONE .50 MG in Front position. The attacking Claudes cannot be hit by returning fire from the bombers because of their high manoeuvrability. Damaging hits start piling up on the B-17s. Finally, some of them turn back even though air group leader has high Aggressiveness. Happened to me in early war when my B-17s attacked Canton.



HansBolter -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:44:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Drove off how? I've never seen 4Es turn back. I think its in the code... If they have enough morale to fly they'll go all the way.

I've seen an A5M4 shoot down a B-17D once, it was over Bedeloap in a head-on attack. Nice shooting Tex!


The Ds are actually pretty vulnerable due to a lack of a tail gun. I loose them all the time.

Since you get a limited supply of them and no replacements...why not use them up?



Gaspote -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:49:05 PM)

50 morale is really bad, you won't see them turning back if they get at least 80.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:49:15 PM)

49 Morale is BAD.



Yaab -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:54:55 PM)

Another example: eight B-17s with morale > 80 facing 13 Japanese fighters. Four B-17s are lost in air combat, the rest presses the attack home and bombs the target. So, even 50% losses were not enough to turn them back.

Remember, for bombers what counts is durability + morale. 99 morale folks in durability 65 planes are simply unstoppable.




LoBaron -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 5:58:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

49 Morale is BAD.


This.



chazz -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:04:18 PM)

So do I disband the group?

Essentially, they're a drain on supplies.

The Claude was a decent plane, but an FW-190 it was not.



Lowpe -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:04:44 PM)

Those pilots had been reading/living Catch-22.




crsutton -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:04:49 PM)

I never fly my bombers with morale that bad. You are citing one event in a simulation that might have over a million before you are done. I recommend that you come back when you detect a pattern. I read of a incident where a Japanese officer jumped into the open top of an allied tank with his samurai sword creating all sorts of havoc until he was gunned down by a crewman. But it only happened once. Do you see where I am going with this? [;)]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:09:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

So do I disband the group?



Do you throw your car away the first time it needs an oil change?

Try some Rest.



KenchiSulla -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:11:50 PM)

Before declaring a combat result unrealistic or wrong, go through the entire setup once more... Very likely you will find the factor that caused the "unexpected result". If you look at the game like this you will be less frustrated and less prone to repeating mistakes...



chazz -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:16:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I never fly my bombers with morale that bad. You are citing one event in a simulation that might have over a million before you are done. I recommend that you come back when you detect a pattern. I read of a incident where a Japanese officer jumped into the open top of an allied tank with his samurai sword creating all sorts of havoc until he was gunned down by a crewman. But it only happened once. Do you see where I am going with this? [;)]


Yes, I can see where you are going with this.

Which brings me to a useful question to an otherwise useless thread...

How do I improve the morale of a dismal misfit group?



Yaab -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:17:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

So do I disband the group?

Essentially, they're a drain on supplies.

The Claude was a decent plane, but an FW-190 it was not.


I guess the Claudes are attacking from upper front and peppering B-17 cockpit with their CL 7.7mm MGs. No wonder some strung-out pilots turned back.



HansBolter -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:18:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chazz

So do I disband the group?

Essentially, they're a drain on supplies.

The Claude was a decent plane, but an FW-190 it was not.


How many squadrons do you think you'll get?

Is it really worth throwing one of your limited numbers of squadrons away in a fit of pique because they didn't perform up to your expectations in a single op?



bartrat -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:22:51 PM)

Best way to improve morale is stand down the squadron.
No activity reduces fatigue and helps morale.
Another way is assign a better leader (higher leadership and inspire)
I am a newbie, that is the only tricks I know.



chazz -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:48:40 PM)

I can see the fatigue angle but it was their first op.



Gaspote -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 6:52:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bartrat

Best way to improve morale is stand down the squadron.
No activity reduces fatigue and helps morale.
Another way is assign a better leader (higher leadership and inspire)
I am a newbie, that is the only tricks I know.



What really matter is the leader inspiration skill. Leadership only help for gaining experience.

Although for fighter, destroying ennemy plane in air to air without suffering loss from air to air increase the morale. So perhaps a bombing run on unprotect target, no flak, no CAP will increase morale of bomber ?



Xargun -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 7:40:27 PM)

Stand them down a couple days at a base with good supplies and not malarial if possible. Bomber crews need for care for morale than fighters jocks - at least in my experience thats what it seems. Fighter jocks bounce right back from morale losses, but bomber crews have a longer memory and take more time.



Ralzakark -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 7:52:03 PM)

"The personnel are obsessed with the idea that a bullet will detonate the bombs and blow up the whole works. If enemy airplanes are seen along the route, all auxillary gas and bombs are immediately jettisoned and the mission abandoned".

Note made by Maj. Gen. Kenney on his tour of Port Moresby upon taking up his command in July 1942 and discovering the poor morale of the units based there. Quoted in Fortress Rabaul, by Bruce Gamble.



jmalter -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 8:04:04 PM)

To 'repair' an airgroup, stand down (100% rest) to reduce pilot fatigue to <10%, then train at 100% (range 0, alt <10k') to rebuild pilot morale. If needed, replace the commander - Leadership & Inspiration should both be 55+, Air skill only matters for Fighter types.

Airgroups should always be fully fleshed-out w/ the full complement of pilots (133% of max plane #), this really helps reduce fatigue build-up.

As others have noted, an airgroup w/ morale in the 50s is not ready for prime-time. It's unwise to throw low-quality airgroups into a fight - not only will they continue to degrade their fatigue & morale, they'll suffer more ops-losses of planes & pilots - and you're giving the enemy an increase to his pilots' Experience. That Claude pilot probably gained an Exp point from the action.



PetrOs -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 9:36:00 PM)

In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately.

P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...)



kjnoel -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 10:20:43 PM)

This forum is so friendly it never ceases to amaze me... even in the face of extreme provocation. I love WitpAE and the community [:)]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 10:33:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PetrOs

In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately.

P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...)


In a decade of posting here this may be the single best story I've ever read! [:)]



Werewolf13 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/23/2014 10:48:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PetrOs

In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately.

P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...)


The term HERO is so easily tossed around these days that IMO it has lost all meaning.

But DAMN!

Your grandfather was a 100% died in the wool all out HERO! And I'd say that even if he'd been shootin' down Americans instead of Germans.



Spurius Evidens -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 12:13:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kjnoel

This forum is so friendly it never ceases to amaze me... even in the face of extreme provocation. I love WitpAE and the community [:)]



There seems to be a fairly direct correlation between the complexity of a game and it's purveyors. Plenty of old farts like myself I imagine that have little need to score cheap points. There's something to be said for falling testosterone levels IMHO.

I only discovered Matrix games about 18 months ago, and very pleased I was about it. I couldn't find my sort of game anywhere and was still firing up old DOS based stuff from SSI and the like. Like a boy in a toy shop I was, and I've bought WitPAE, WitE, CWII, Espania 1936, all the Command Ops stuff and Flashpoint:Red Storm since. Should keep me amused for a while...........Never happier than when blowing stuff up operationally/strategically. Too old and too slow these days for that FPS stuff. Never was into it really.



Spurius Evidens -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 12:31:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: PetrOs

In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately.

P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...)


In a decade of posting here this may be the single best story I've ever read! [:)]

Yeah, a bit of an overachiever that Great Grandfather of his. Can't match that, Great Grandfather was a transport driver in France with the ANZAC Corps WWI (invalided out after a mustard gas attack, never the same again), and a Grandfather ground crew on Morotai with the RAAF WWII. Was still proud of them of course, they did what was asked of them.



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