RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy.

RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (Full Version)

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chazz -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 12:53:41 AM)
Thanks 4 the feedback, guys. The anecdotal stuff helps- it makes sense, and, being a lover of reason it makes sense to me. I also understand that "nothing breeds success like success". So I'm going to pull these B-17's out of the firing line and give them something that they can do.

AW1Steve -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 1:24:59 AM)
Just as a note...in 1941 the USA gave the UK a dozen or so B-17d's. They were sent over with the instructions to use them as a conversion trainer to train crews to be ready for the B-17E's that the US would soon be sending over. The RAF ignored the USAAF , and immediately sent them on a daylight bombing raid over Germany. The B-17d's were slaughtered. The RAF ruled the B-17 useless in combat , and used any others they received as Coastal Command patrol planes. Even B-17E's and F's. Even highly trained , experienced RAF crews couldn't make the plane do what it should not have done. Use the early B-17's as long range RECON planes , Patrol planes with a 22 square range , or simply as crew trainers. Or even as night bombers. You'll be glad you did.[:)]

btd64 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 2:58:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) In a decade of posting here this may be the single best story I've ever read! [:)] Plus 1.

wdolson -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 4:04:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 In a decade of posting here this may be the single best story I've ever read! [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Spurius Evidens Yeah, a bit of an overachiever that Great Grandfather of his. Can't match that, Great Grandfather was a transport driver in France with the ANZAC Corps WWI (invalided out after a mustard gas attack, never the same again), and a Grandfather ground crew on Morotai with the RAAF WWII. Was still proud of them of course, they did what was asked of them. I agree, quite a story. The Soviets faced adversities in the first year of the war that the western Allies rarely did. The Germans destroyed a large number of aircraft on the ground in the first week, but the Soviets fought on with obsolete and obsolescent fighters. Heinlein defined a hero as someone who knows exactly what the risks are, but goes and does them anyway. I think that's a fairly good definition IMO. Over the last 200 years I can't claim any such military heroism. Only two men have been in the military since the American Revolution that I know of. One grandfather drove ambulances in France in WW I and the other was too old for WW I. My father was in the USAAF in WW II. Anyway, back to the original topic. All sorts of oddities happened in the real war. Knavvy hasn't been around for a while, but he would create fake combat reports in the game's format, but they were real world events and then he would claim the game was broken. He used to get people who were new all worked up about a newly found bug and all the old timers who knew his trickster ways would be laughing at yet again finding a bug in reality. Bill

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 5:27:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Even highly trained , experienced RAF crews couldn't make the plane do what it should not have done. Use the early B-17's as long range RECON planes , Patrol planes with a 22 square range , or simply as crew trainers. Or even as night bombers. You'll be glad you did.[:)] I used the extra range to bomb the snot out of a bunch of oil fields. Is that OK? [:'(]

Chris21wen -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 6:27:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bartrat Best way to improve morale is stand down the squadron. No activity reduces fatigue and helps morale. Another way is assign a better leader (higher leadership and inspire) I am a newbie, that is the only tricks I know. ...and send them out the front line to a large well stocked base. If you think the losses are going to be unacceptable use the unit for training in that base until you get better a/c or, when morale improves, use them at night.

czert2 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 9:43:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) Wow, amazing story. Your greatgrantfather will most likely dont tell more stories, but it is here way to read more about him ? You should consider creating wiki page about him, since it will be great shame to lose stories like this. I must admire his courage - lose so many planes under him in one day and still be eager to fight and fly. And that how he was rescued ? how big chances are for that ? Just finished reading story book about one-eyed sturmovik pilot, and will love to read about this pilot too.

PetrOs -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 10:43:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: czert2 quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) Wow, amazing story. Your greatgrantfather will most likely dont tell more stories, but it is here way to read more about him ? You should consider creating wiki page about him, since it will be great shame to lose stories like this. I must admire his courage - lose so many planes under him in one day and still be eager to fight and fly. And that how he was rescued ? how big chances are for that ? Just finished reading story book about one-eyed sturmovik pilot, and will love to read about this pilot too. Thanks! April 42, when it happened, was a quite hard time for the russians around Leningrad, there was no lack of targets, but also no lack of very dangerous enemies those days. Most of his regiment (5th IAP KBF, later renamed to 3rd Guards IAP KBF - IAP KBF means Fighter Aviation Regiment, Red banner Baltic Fleet - naval/marine fighters) was lost in this time, but not without some significant successes. As I am not a good writer, I rather let my models (my main hobby is ship and aviation modeling) speak, and I built a few of his and his regiment's comrades aircrafts, I also spent over 10 years researching his career, as he died when I was still a kindergarten-aged kid, and many his documents got damaged or destroyed in a fire at my grandparents' house... Personal mounts: I-16 with which he started the war. It was a newer Type 28. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16488-148-i-16-type-28-5th-iap-kbf/ MiG-3 "Bomber Basher" field mod, one he used in winter 41-42. Field rearmament to 2 20mm nose cannons, 2 12.7 mm HMGs in wing pods, and a battery of RS-82 rockets. Plane types listed in this model's articles are wrong, I got these clarified later with the russian state archive. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5509-148-mig-3-early-version-from-trumpeter/ P-47 "Bubble top" - his illegal kill's mount. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5509-148-mig-3-early-version-from-trumpeter/ He returned to his regiment in 43 as a non-flying political officer (rather as an educator/mentor, as skilled pilots were not many, and he had a lot of experience in the first war year). By late 44 he was "illegally" flying some training sorties, as he was offcially not deemed fit to combat. As his regiment received a pair of T-bolts for evaluation, he was evaluating it with another guy in Yak-9 flying cover. They were jumped by a pair of Fw190s, one of which was shot down by the T-Bolt. As however he was not legally flying, the kill was logged for his wingman (who also fired a burst in that Fw, so participated). Regiment: Hawker Hurryton II - russian rearmed (2 20mm, 2 12.7mm) RAF second hand Hurricane. 3rd GVIAP got a batch of these in late april 42, after they ran out of a mix of Mig-3/Yak-1/Lagg-3/I-16 which were employed in winter 42. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13048-hawker-hurriton-mkiic/

oldman45 -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 11:14:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) In a decade of posting here this may be the single best story I've ever read! [:)] I will second this. On another point, I will bet that his great grandfather along with so many hero's of the day never thought of themselves as hero's, just doing their job. Thank goodness what when there is a time of need, men and women such as him stand up when its needed.

Rising-Sun -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 11:30:43 AM)
Possible bad weathers, cant seem to find the targets and/or bad morale. Doing long-range bombing runs, does eat up your fatigues badly. I seen very few of these, but rarely.

offenseman -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 2:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs In real life, such things happened, when the much inferiour fighter would kill or scare off. My greatgrandfather's last two kills were in a badly used I-16 type 5 armed with a pair of 7,62mm MGs only, with his wingman flying another similar rust bucket. The downed german planes were a He-111 and a Me-109F. Frontal attack on the He and probably shot pilot, as He spinned down. Other Heinkels of the same flight were reported to drop the bombs randomly and turn off. Then 'out-of-the-sun' on the Messerschmitt, which caught fire and exploded. Another Bf109F shot him down a few seconds later however, with my greatgrandfather surviving, but very badly injured, never to fly again. 14 bullets... Only surviving as when his plane exploded, his parachute opened, and he landed, unconscious, just a few meters in front of a hospital's air defence bunker - operated immediately. P.S. It was his 4th and 5th victories of the same day (13th and 14th total), and his 5th lost plane on the same day, too! (Take off in MiG-3, down Ju-88, engine damaged by tail gunner, forced landing on one of Leningrad's central streets, got police car to drive him to base, take off in another MiG, engine jammed on take off, forced landing, take off in yet another MiG, down a Ju-88 and Me-110, bail out with engine on fire, parachute directly to his own runway, take a Yak-1 from another squadron, attacked on take off, damaged but not downed an attacking Me-109, but yet another forced landing. Then the only spare plane on the base was a 10 years old I-16 with half of the guns and armor removed, used as liaison and training plane...) wow. Thank you so much for sharing one of the many never told stories that are very worth telling. [:)]

Don Bowen -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 7:19:47 PM)
I generally don't even bother opening a thread with a heading that includes "nonsense", "stupid(ity)" or "idiot(ic)". I guess this one slipped by due to "idiocy". So, once again, EVERY OUTCOME IS POSSIBLE. AE gives a chance for every possible result that logic dictates, up to and including David whipping a brace of Goliaths. A random chance exists for all of them and all of them will eventually pop up. Something that seems "idiocy" is the result of a 1-in-a-bigbunch chance hitting. It is not possible to extend human understanding of a situation to a computerized random number generator. What you get is a 50% chance of this and a 25% chance of this, etc., down to a 1/100,000 chance of this other thing. If one gets a seemingly unreasonable result, fire the leaders and move on.

obvert -> RE: NONSENSE!! Air Combat Idiocy. (5/24/2014 8:08:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chazz Thanks 4 the feedback, guys. The anecdotal stuff helps- it makes sense, and, being a lover of reason it makes sense to me. I also understand that "nothing breeds success like success". So I'm going to pull these B-17's out of the firing line and give them something that they can do. The thing that will help you the most is if you listen to the posters who pointed out that 50ish morale is VERY BAD. You're lucky they flew at all. You have to rest them often, get leaders with 60+ leadership and inspiration, and not fly them on extended range daily with no rest.

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