RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (Full Version)

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Sangeli -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/13/2014 10:18:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spidery There are a lot of bases in China with a x10 multiple for Japan and these can all be developed to size 4 airfields without too much difficulty. Sining and Lanchow have x50 multipliers and Tsuyung and Kunming have x25 multipliers. Except China won't exist soon so it's a mute point. I rather like this idea though: quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 To what others have said about going for a lot of 1-1 trades I'd also offer that you really haven't hurt this navy at all. He has re-supply running in a big, big way given his perimeter. I know most of your DDs are crap yet, but a few 2-3 DD hunting groups, looking for only merchants and PBs, would make him react. Midway can work for some. Pago Pago too if you risk an AD. LBA is the great boogieman, but DDs are nimble. If you lose one it's 8-10 VPs. A single big xAK is that, plus the supply he has to rebuild. Don't get tunnel vision that you have to fight warships. Warships shoot back! You'd be surprised what a few fleets of marauder DD's and CL's can do for the Allies in 1942. There are still lots of LBA holes in the Japanese defenses to sneak through in early 1942. Getting AD's to important Pacific bases is important but it's probably just as important to build up some fuel in smaller more forward bases as the Allies. The WWI era destroyers that you want for this type of mission have short range so the less distance they have to go between refueling and raiding the better. Having a distributed network of AO's is also another alternative although it would require more resources.

Wuffer -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/13/2014 11:43:27 PM)
following both sides, so nothing to add here, with the only exception of a big thx for making such a detailed AAR!

Lowpe -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 12:40:07 AM)
I still think the Allies will be ok...there will be lots of opportunities to get some victory points.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 6:26:28 AM)
Thanks for all the advice guys! [&o] I´m already expanding every base in WC, Canada, SU and select bases in OZ/NZ/India and have been from day 1. [:)] This is from the last week: quote: Port Hueneme expands airfield to size 6 Iman expands airfield to size 5 Suchan expands airfield to size 4 Rybolov expands airfield to size 7 San Luis Obispo expands airfield to size 5 Prince Rupert expands port to size 6 Anadyr expands airfield to size 2 Chita expands airfield to size 7 Regarding marauding TFs I have had a TF centered around Concord, Raleigh and Detroit backed up by 3 AOs roaming the Pacific. They have been south of Tokyo, East of the Marianas and North of Truk but have yet to find anything. Tom may or may not know I´m there. I got a 2/2 DL on two occasions. Once South of Guam and once North of Iwo Jima. I had to pull them back for now as the oilers ran dry after 2 months of operations. They are currently upgrading at PH. But will return to their duties shortly. [:)] Regarding NOPAC I share Lokas view on the impossibility of it. I´m too short on everything and it would be too easy for Tom to close such an operation down. The assets would be more useful in other places. [:)] Here is the Intel screen. As can been seen there are three areas that definitively need work. Ship losses, air losses and Ground losses. As Lowpe says I still have an opportunity to turn this boat around. Its 8 more months to go. But I´ll admit I´m not very optimistic. With the fall of Manila I will lose another 1100 VPs while Tom will gain probably 1500-2000 from the base and LCU losses. With the fall of Java and soon the PI Tom will have 4 fresh IDs ready for new operations. It will be tense and if I make it I´m sure it will be by a very close margin. [image]local://upfiles/32406/09DF391896294BD383676A1BE77EF5EF.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:21:39 AM)
For comparison I found a screen from my game vs Joseph from December 42. [image]local://upfiles/32406/1D741411174E4220A0FE665D75799946.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:25:06 AM)
Heh, Actually found one from my game with Erik in his AAR. [image]local://upfiles/32406/E76DD7C95A2E4CD4935B510EF4954971.jpg[/image]

Encircled -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:25:18 AM)
I reckon you will be fine. I can't see him invading into the teeth of your defence now the amphib bonus is over. If he piles his effort into building up the bases for VP, then you can outbuild him.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:30:25 AM)
Interestingly enough they are actually not that different. Especially of you look at the one from Eriks game and this one. That being said it was both me and Eriks first PBEM and Erik never did push far out from the historical boundaries. With at least 4 fresh IDs released from Java/PI a push for Ceylon or a heavy reinforcement of SOPAC to keep my away from VPs wouldn´t surprise me.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 8:51:10 AM)
12th of April -42 ______________________________________________________________________________ Things calm down for two days. ------------------------ China ------------------------ No more attacks here but bombardments. I think Tom need 2-3 days more to get his troops forward. Some units managed to move out of the overstacked hex. Troops are now down to 85k. Still no supply. ------------------------ SOPAC/OZ ------------------------ With a NavGuard at Nadi MKB turns back to pick up more troops at Noumea. I have a crapload of subs in the area but despite all of them having a 0 DL no attacks have been made. I´m making the first preparations for the counter attack in OZ. ------------------------ KB ------------------------ I havn´ts seen the KB in 3-4 weeks now. Since no update are scheduled until June/July -42 I can only assume they are shifting theater. I think he will use the troops from Java/PI and make a landing either at Ceylon or in the Calcutta region. Most likely Ceylon as India is probably a bit too late now. ------------------------ West Coast ------------------------ Ran into this bunch 4 days ago. Luckily Charleston managed to screen the TF so the rest of the TF could evade. We then avoided them the following day by doing a 360 at full speed. quote: AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 05, 42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near San Diego at 220,98, Range 8,000 Yards Japanese Ships AMC Kinryu Maru AMC Awata Maru AMC Kongo Maru AMC Nosiro Maru, Shell hits 1 AMC Bankok Maru, Shell hits 2 Allied Ships PG Charleston PC Atalanta TK Mobilgas, Shell hits 3 TK H. M. Storey, Shell hits 3, on fire TK L. P. St. Clair TK Osthav, Shell hits 2, on fire I spotted the TF SE of PH 2 days ago. Trying to make an intercept and is slowly closing the noose.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 10:19:10 AM)
13th of April -42 ______________________________________________________________________________ Well, finally found a use for those fuel guzzling BBs... ------------------------ CENTPAC ------------------------ I did manage to intercept about half the AMC TF. It was a once sided affair... quote: Day Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 182,93, Range 23,000 Yards Japanese aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed Japanese Ships AMC Kinryu Maru, Shell hits 4, and is sunk AMC Awata Maru, Shell hits 21, and is sunk AMC Kongo Maru, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage Allied Ships BB West Virginia BB Arizona DD Meredith DD Gwin DD Grayson, Shell hits 1 DD Monssen DD O'Brien DD Walke quote: Day Time Surface Combat, near Lihue at 182,92, Range 22,000 Yards Japanese aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses E13A1 Jake: 2 destroyed Japanese Ships AMC Kongo Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk Allied Ships BB West Virginia BB Arizona DD Meredith DD Gwin DD Grayson DD Monssen DD O'Brien DD Walke I´ll continue to hunt the others but I´m sure they took a completely different route. For now I´ll use the old BBs for escort between PH and the WC. I´ll also use two BBs to escort TFs to and from the WC for a while. ------------------------ China ------------------------ Ouch. quote: Ground combat at 82,43 (near Ankang) Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 43295 troops, 919 guns, 573 vehicles, Assault Value = 992 Defending force 26801 troops, 180 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 409 Japanese adjusted assault: 740 Allied adjusted defense: 286 Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-) supply(-) Attacker: shock(+) Japanese ground losses: 1490 casualties reported Squads: 20 destroyed, 92 disabled Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 23 disabled Engineers: 3 destroyed, 3 disabled Guns lost 18 (8 destroyed, 10 disabled) Vehicles lost 31 (3 destroyed, 28 disabled) Allied ground losses: 9505 casualties reported Squads: 393 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 315 destroyed, 8 disabled Engineers: 15 destroyed, 4 disabled Guns lost 30 (20 destroyed, 10 disabled) Units retreated 6 Tom did launch the first attack at the overstacked hex. While it did a little better then expected I don´t think I will last another attack. So it seems any hope of getting to the mountains before the entire army in the woods is surrounded is gone. Getting 300.000 men cut off and surrounded is going to suck. quote: Ground combat at 80,40 (near Kienko) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 37497 troops, 429 guns, 435 vehicles, Assault Value = 997 Defending force 41185 troops, 176 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 966 Japanese adjusted assault: 634 Allied adjusted defense: 481 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 642 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 52 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled Vehicles lost 13 (5 destroyed, 8 disabled) Allied ground losses: 1465 casualties reported Squads: 21 destroyed, 179 disabled Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 25 disabled Engineers: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled Guns lost 22 (4 destroyed, 18 disabled) Assaulting units: 8th Armored Car Co 37th Division 15th Division 1st Recon Regiment Defending units: 2nd Chinese Corps 74th Chinese Corps 17th Chinese Corps 100th Chinese Corps 2nd War Area 15th Group Army 39th Group Army

Spidery -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 10:53:22 AM)
quote: I did manage to intercept about half the AMC TF. It was a once sided affair... Nice[:)], those AMC are worth 20-25 VP each.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 11:00:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spidery quote: I did manage to intercept about half the AMC TF. It was a once sided affair... Nice[:)], those AMC are worth 20-25 VP each. Yeah, I just noticed! [:)]

Lowpe -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 11:35:08 AM)
I don't think AMC should be used for merchant raiding. They just die so easily. Amphib operations, even escorting tankers (especially the ones with floats) seem much better uses. I just don't think auto victory is in the cards because Joc keeps underestimating his ability to gain victory points. Maybe 3-1 auto vic in 44 if the Allies are super cautious, but I feel confident that by then Joc will have launched several major operations...and any major fleet clashes will be near breakeven to positive Allies.

obvert -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 11:52:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I don't think AMC should be used for merchant raiding. They just die so easily. Amphib operations, even escorting tankers (especially the ones with floats) seem much better uses. I just don't think auto victory is in the cards because Joc keeps underestimating his ability to gain victory points. Maybe 3-1 auto vic in 44 if the Allies are super cautious, but I feel confident that by then Joc will have launched several major operations...and any major fleet clashes will be near breakeven to positive Allies. Ah, but where would we be without the intrigue? [:D] He's right to worry. If he doesn't consider AV then he's not playing the game and won't be using it in all of the decisions made from here on out. That is dangerous.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 2:14:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I just don't think auto victory is in the cards because Joc keeps underestimating his ability to gain victory points. Maybe 3-1 auto vic in 44 if the Allies are super cautious, but I feel confident that by then Joc will have launched several major operations...and any major fleet clashes will be near breakeven to positive Allies. Well, you have better faith in my ability then I have! Thank you! [:D] Although I may sound really pessimistic about my chances to avoid AV I still have hope. I´ve come back from the abyss before. And this time I will hopefully have more tools to do it with then last time. But last turn didn´t help. Post coming soon. quote: ORIGINAL: obvert He's right to worry. If he doesn't consider AV then he's not playing the game and won't be using it in all of the decisions made from here on out. That is dangerous. Thanks Erik. That is my feeling too. [:)] I have no doubt at all I can come back from this and stand on the PI in early 45. My doubt is weather or not I can AV in 42 and that has to take 100% of my focus. Nothing else matters right now!

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 2:19:40 PM)
Manilla falls! ______________________________________________________________________________ After suffering 500 casualties per turn from air attacks and another 400 per turn from Bombardment the defenders of Manila finally surrenders. Grand Arch Supreme Mega Super General Jocke wows to return before 1945! quote: Ground combat at Manila (79,77) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 50306 troops, 867 guns, 673 vehicles, Assault Value = 1091 Defending force 44354 troops, 496 guns, 201 vehicles, Assault Value = 669 Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0 Japanese adjusted assault: 1443 Allied adjusted defense: 247 Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 0) Japanese forces CAPTURE Manila !!! Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-), supply(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 1579 casualties reported Squads: 35 destroyed, 46 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 24 disabled Engineers: 4 destroyed, 27 disabled Vehicles lost 12 (3 destroyed, 9 disabled) Allied ground losses: 57319 casualties reported Squads: 1889 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 2791 destroyed, 0 disabled Engineers: 79 destroyed, 0 disabled Guns lost 258 (258 destroyed, 0 disabled) Vehicles lost 295 (295 destroyed, 0 disabled) Units destroyed 37 [image]local://upfiles/32406/88C4C0FE403F4E849160714F4BC324CF.jpg[/image]

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 2:45:23 PM)
That is one consistent slope! Kind of pretty in a terrible sort of way. [:)] You got some AMCs. Good for you. It can be done and man, does it make the movie easier to watch. Re China, I don't have any good advice. Supply is collapsing as you knew it would. On your list of things to do I'd be taking all the arty, all the AA, and all the base forces and moving them backwards as fast as possible. If not Chungking then the mountains. Don't wait until the last minute and try to squeeze them through hexsides. They're useless without supply. The BF Support isn't, but . . . In Navy terms, there's water coming into the hull. Save what you can. Abandon the lower compartments.

Mike McCreery -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:01:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 That is one consistent slope! Kind of pretty in a terrible sort of way. [:)] You got some AMCs. Good for you. It can be done and man, does it make the movie easier to watch. Re China, I don't have any good advice. Supply is collapsing as you knew it would. On your list of things to do I'd be taking all the arty, all the AA, and all the base forces and moving them backwards as fast as possible. If not Chungking then the mountains. Don't wait until the last minute and try to squeeze them through hexsides. They're useless without supply. The BF Support isn't, but . . . In Navy terms, there's water coming into the hull. Save what you can. Abandon the lower compartments. I I am playing someone extremely adverse to AA and it might make a difference in other games but I honestly believe having the 2AA units the Chineese have stationed in Chungking can make or break the war for the Chinese. Make sure you do not lose those if possible.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:08:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wargmr I am playing someone extremely adverse to AA and it might make a difference in other games but I honestly believe having the 2AA units the Chineese have stationed in Chungking can make or break the war for the Chinese. Make sure you do not lose those if possible. I also believe AA should be in Chungking, even if unsupplied for now. But SLs make hard choices in Chungking a must.

Mike McCreery -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:14:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Wargmr I am playing someone extremely adverse to AA and it might make a difference in other games but I honestly believe having the 2AA units the Chineese have stationed in Chungking can make or break the war for the Chinese. Make sure you do not lose those if possible. I also believe AA should be in Chungking, even if unsupplied for now. But SLs make hard choices in Chungking a must. True... My opponent has been milking Chungking for a while. Irritating but part of the game mechanics. As soon as I overstack I move stuff out of the city to be destroyed. I have managed to keep supply in the city through Jan 44 this way. The AA just prevents his bombers from getting any significant hits and I dont think he wants to lose aircraft points and seasoned pilots for no reason.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:15:46 PM)
Good advice. I´ll make sure to keep them there. They have been terrible beaten up during the rout. But perhaps there is some time to get some guns recovered!

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:19:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wargmr True... My opponent has been milking Chungking for a while. Irritating but part of the game mechanics. As soon as I overstack I move stuff out of the city to be destroyed. I have managed to keep supply in the city through Jan 44 this way. The AA just prevents his bombers from getting any significant hits and I dont think he wants to lose aircraft points and seasoned pilots for no reason. I had supplied AA in Chungking in a non-SL game, and Lokasenna just strat bombed Resources down below 10 and took the hexsides. Supply game over. Not many Japan players want to destroy Chungking industry, but it certainly changes the balance.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 4:23:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 I had supplied AA in Chungking in a non-SL game, and Lokasenna just strat bombed Resources down below 10 and took the hexsides. Supply game over. Not many Japan players want to destroy Chungking industry, but it certainly changes the balance. According to our HRs he can bomb the industry but hasn´t. I´m thinking he want it intact. B29s doesn´t arrive until early 44 so he will get almost 2 years worth of industry before I can torch it.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 5:14:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 I had supplied AA in Chungking in a non-SL game, and Lokasenna just strat bombed Resources down below 10 and took the hexsides. Supply game over. Not many Japan players want to destroy Chungking industry, but it certainly changes the balance. According to our HRs he can bomb the industry but hasn´t. I´m thinking he want it intact. B29s doesn´t arrive until early 44 so he will get almost 2 years worth of industry before I can torch it. In a SL game there's little reason to. The resurrection rule will take care of the supply you can make so long as the hexsides are closed.

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 5:54:14 PM)
True that!

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 6:14:39 PM)
17th of April -42 ______________________________________________________________________________ Actually very little has happened the last couple of turns. ------------------------ CENTPAC ------------------------ No more signs of the last AMCs. I have 6 BBs out looking for them. ------------------------ CENTPAC ------------------------ Very little action here as well. I think Tom is reorganizing for the final push. It also takes some time to move through the terrain. ------------------------ SOPAC/OZ ------------------------ A BB TF have started hitting bases on the coast. quote: Night Naval bombardment of Newcastle at 92,166 - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Japanese Ships BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1 BB Hiei BB Haruna BB Kongo CA Ashigara CA Nachi CA Haguro CA Myoko Allied ground losses: 1092 casualties reported Squads: 8 destroyed, 25 disabled Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 69 disabled Engineers: 13 destroyed, 20 disabled Guns lost 37 (10 destroyed, 27 disabled) Vehicles lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled) Only consolation is I know how much fuel these guys burn. And Tom is sending them at full speed during the night to get back under the Brisbane CAP before morning. I did consider trying to intercept them but with 200 Nells/Betties at Brisbane and the bases around I don´t dare for now. Tom is also hitting the industry at Sydney again. Not much I can do about it... [X(] quote: Afternoon Air attack on Sydney , at 90,167 Weather in hex: Overcast Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 14 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 142 [X(] G3M2 Nell x 81 Japanese aircraft losses G3M2 Nell: 2 damaged Manpower hits 17 Fires 2602 ------------------------ Allied offensive! ------------------------ First plans are being laid. Feels good to plan something on your own rather then basing the planning on what Tom might do. I´ll share the details on this eventually but for now I´ll keep them to myself. ETA: 40-60 days. [image]local://upfiles/32406/ED7DF5EC3EBA4400AFEE6424996AB423.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 6:49:53 PM)
I would pull your BB back from the centpac. He knows they are there, and they sink fast in the open ocean.[:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:06:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I would pull your BB back from the centpac. He knows they are there, and they sink fast in the open ocean.[:)] Yeah, I´m going to RTB in a turn or two. They guzzled up all their fuel anyway! [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:19:06 PM)
Fall of China ______________________________________________________________________________ Now the route will turn into a full flight. Resistance is no longer meaningful. Tom moves in with 75k troops and simply annihilates the defenders. I had just gotten the troops out and dropped below the 40k SL. This probably gave me a trickle of supply but when there is nothing to be had there is nothing to be had. He didn´t even need to bomb from the air this time. quote: Ground combat at 80,40 (near Kienko) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 56983 troops, 877 guns, 767 vehicles, Assault Value = 1340 Defending force 38196 troops, 160 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 762 Japanese adjusted assault: 824 Allied adjusted defense: 208 [8\|] Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 510 casualties reported Squads: 22 destroyed, 68 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled) Allied ground losses: 16097 casualties reported Squads: 516 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 500 destroyed, 8 disabled Engineers: 15 destroyed, 6 disabled Guns lost 23 (22 destroyed, 1 disabled) Units retreated 6 Defeated Allied Units Retreating! I had 3 good IDs, level 3 forts in x3 terrain and gets my AV adjusted from 750 to 250. This is the 3rd time I suffer this fate in China. It really doesn´t seem to matter much what you do. Supply simply runs out eventually and then its game over. The plan is basically to evacuate as much as I can from China and move into the mountains. Since there is no supply I can try and massively overstack low SL hexes and hope the 25% AV will be enough. I will leave some token forces at Chunking and in Southern China but not much. Don´t want to think about how many VPs Tom will gain from all the bases. [:(] Bah, foul mood after this. [:(] Its one thing knowing how it will end but quite different actually getting there.

HansBolter -> RE: Japanese land in OZ!! (8/14/2014 7:40:34 PM)
Hate to sound like a broken record, but I've been pointing out for years that allowing the bombing of unused airfields to destroy the supply of armies deployed in field created an easymode game for the Japanese player in China. Many have tried to make China tougher to conquer, but have failed. I believe they will continue to fail until this mechanism is altered. Unfortunately every time I bring it up I get lambasted by the entire community and shouted down by a flurry of "it has to be that way...stupid" responses. From my perspective, nothing about destroying the supply of field armies by bombing unused airbases has ever made a lick of sense. steps back down from soap box

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