2nd Game....Burn and Crash.

2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (Full Version)

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Daeromont1 -> 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/5/2014 10:18:24 PM)
(My original question is below, but I'm trying to post my game file. Even zipped, I get an error that it is too large...ideas on that?) Absolutely one of the best games I've played. However,my 2nd game is not going well (but much better than first)...and I'm getting into a slump with a bad economy and lack of proper support to protect my fledgling worlds. I already know some things to do differently from the forum tactically, but if anyone has time to briefly review my save game file, I'd love some further critique on things to do differently. Please be kind but direct. :) Only my 2nd game...and I wasn't really able to implement the things I read yet as I was overextended and a couple wars broke out. Here are my biggest concerns: 1. Economy is tanking. My game was set to not trade techs, so that isn't something I could do. I probably expanded too quickly...but if so, I'd like some tips on what is 'enough' without falling too far behind. 2. I don't understand the tech side of things as to capacity. 3. Trade. I've been building every station I could to help my economy. Should I be focusing in one direction or another...and if so, how do I tell? 4. Fleet support: I have learned a lot from my previous reading and posts made on my earlier thread. But I am definitely open to further suggestions....particularly as they relate to what I might be doing wrong with fleet design and composition. Thanks! Daeromont

Retreat1970 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/5/2014 11:01:05 PM)
I don't have a clue as to what's happening in your game but I'll throw out some ideas.... Bad economy usually means you have too much stuff, or better put, more than you can afford. Reduce troops, ships and bases. Especially if not at war. Also your homeworld is your money maker. Make sure you're maximizing pop growth and tax to squeeze every dollar you can out. Capacity should be explained on the component tool tip. For example a standard troop bay has a capacity of 100. A regular infantry has a size of 100. One infantry = one standard troop bay. Hope I helped a little. I'm no expert player either.

pycco -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 1:45:35 AM)
1 expanding to quick could cause this, most planets cost 3.5 k in the beginning to maintain a population there.most likely its being caused by you having to big of stations/ to many ships/to many troops. tip play with tech trading on until you get use to the game this can save you a lot of headache as you don't have to balance your budget as much. 2 max capacity is your research potential, actual research out put is your current research rate. to increase the current rate build more research labs. 3.build a minimal station over your planets, put on in edition to what is required a medical center, a recreation center, a commerce center these three things will provide bonuses and the commerce center will allow your stations to sell goods in trade. 4 need more details here what are you having problems with specifically?

Bingeling -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 7:20:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daeromont1 1. Economy is tanking. My game was set to not trade techs, so that isn't something I could do. I probably expanded too quickly...but if so, I'd like some tips on what is 'enough' without falling too far behind. 2. I don't understand the tech side of things as to capacity. 3. Trade. I've been building every station I could to help my economy. Should I be focusing in one direction or another...and if so, how do I tell? 4. Fleet support: I have learned a lot from my previous reading and posts made on my earlier thread. But I am definitely open to further suggestions....particularly as they relate to what I might be doing wrong with fleet design and composition. 1: To build a good economy, you need a decent to good quality (in percentage) colony with high population. In the early game you do not have high population on the capital planet, and things like fast reproduction (and until the beta update low tax) helps you get there sooner. You also need low corruption on the colony to gain its potential, but that should not be an issue on the capital itself. Otherwise, see regional capital, researched in high tech part (governance?). One way to tank the economy is to expand fast, have more spots to protect against nasty pirates, which require more ships, that you can't afford since your capital is not "profitable" enough to support that yet. With only the capital, you have the same income, and maybe only need to defend the capital system and a couple of mining ones. 2: Capacity? What capacity? I manage to play just fine without understanding anything about that. 3: See 1: The colony needs luxuries to have max development (105 with no extra stuff), which is required for a good economy. It should be 10 luxuries, some strategics, and the racial one. Apart from providing this, and enough strategics and fuel to build and run stuff, mines are not that important. If you got a neighbor that is worse off, you can make them buy resources and provide some trade bonuses (I think...), as long as you got spares. 4: What is the issue with fleet design? The fleet needs to be able to do its job. Is the job to stop a pirate escort that tries to camp at your new colony? It requires a small fleet. Is the job to stop a 8 ship pirate fleet from dropping raiders at the same colony? Requires a much larger fleet. Is the job to bust the large pirate spaceport? Requires an even stronger fleet. For a fleet that travels around, pay attention to the range shown on the design of your ships. Right side, movement part, range in sectors. It is a good idea to have long ranged ships only, which usually rule out escorts in fleets (or at least used to do). When you get cruisers, they usually have better range than frigates and destroyers. Which makes me drop the smaller two from "main fleets". Carriers are nice. In my current AAR, with 400 build size and AI designs, I run normal fighting fleets of 14/4 (cruiser/carrier). I set up a couple of stronger fleets of 25/6 to take on the large spaceports and friends. The smaller ones should spank some AI empire or pirate fleets, and small and maybe medium spaceports. Keep in mind that a spaceport is not just a spaceport if there are 30 enemy ships present. A 400 size cruiser is not much better than a 350ish destroyer, but it was a bit more tanky, I think had some more travel range, and more torpedoes (which is used when "standoff" against stronger targets). And the fleet with cruisers can be retrofitted to better cruisers (larger) on the next build size increased, while destroyers stay the same.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 7:30:55 AM)
Remember that stations cost upkeep, you can check how much you are paying in upkeep in the Empire summary screen. Research capacity, if you look at the research stations screen (1st tab on the right in research screen) you will see a green number, this is your total research capacity. On the left it will list your stations and research total thereby at the bottom. If your research capacity is say 400, say the totals look like this Enrergy Weapons Engineering 150, 150, 150 (=450) Then you have built 50 points worth of research infrastructure above your capacity (400) you cant use but must pay upkeep for. That would not be to bad as the RC does increase over time. However going well above this number is very bad as you are just paying money for nothing. Its also worth noting that the green number is the number before bonuses are applied. Why they dont show the number after bonuses are applied who knows, is one of the many quirks of this game.

Bingeling -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 7:35:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasty11 Its also worth noting that the green number is the number before bonuses are applied. Why they dont show the number after bonuses are applied who knows, is one of the many quirks of this game. Maybe because the number after bonuses could do little sense? The total research output is the sum of the 3 actual research outputs shown. This number is not needed, since we use that other number to judge number of research lab. And this "total actual output" depends on both the various bonuses, research sites, and the distribution of labs in your empire. You can tweak output between 3 branches that have different bonus percentages. The "total output" depends on a lot of things, the research potential is fixed by population/strategic value/whatever:

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 9:00:42 AM)
Not sure I follow. The bonuses on the right under total capacity apply to maximum capacity not the output. Therefore it seems strange that they show us maximum capacity, then show us some bonuses that apply to maximum capacity but dont show us the new number. From the wiki: quote: Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) TERP is the largest number of researchers in your empire that could be dedicated to any combination of the three major areas of research, if you built enough laboratories to employ them. This upper limit of researchers is determined by the size of your empire's population and the state of its culture. If you increase either or both of these, the TERP will rise. It is useless to build more laboratories than your research potential can handle, so knowing this number can be helpful when considering your investments. TERP is modified by the green bonuses or red penalties shown directly beneath it, derived in the example above from the current form of Government and race. However, these modifications are not included in the TERP number. Thus the term Total is a bit misleading. Some players, therefore, find it useful to compute their empire's Adjusted Research Potential (ARP) (some call it Research Capability). This would be your empire's total research potential including the bonuses and penalties. The ARP is calculated as follows: TERP x Bonus1 x Bonus2 ... = Adjusted Research Potential

Bingeling -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 9:16:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasty11 Not sure I follow. The bonuses on the right under total capacity apply to maximum capacity not the output. Therefore it seems strange that they show us maximum capacity, then show us some bonuses that apply to maximum capacity but dont show us the new number. If it is a nice and tidy empire (although tiny). It has 300 research capacity, and labs counting to 100 in each area for a total of 300. It would work the same if it has an equal amount of labs in the area, and more than 100 in each, it is just a bit of wasted maintenance. And less tidy for this example. If the empire has some scientists, leader, and sites giving some total bonuses of bonuses. 10% to weapon research 30% to energy research 15% to hightech research. The base. 100 + 100 + 100 (weapon, energy, hightech) becomes 110 + 130 + 115 = 355 output. If the distribution of labs is different. 50 + 200 + 50 (weapon + energy + hightech) (lots of energy labs). The new adjusted output Is 55 + 260 + 57.5 = 372.5 total output. This because the empire potential is more focused on the higher bonus area of energy research. So the "total output" is both a bit misleading as it depends on what research station has been built or destroyed lately (since normal research stations has only one type of lab), but it is also a number that if given could make the screen even more confusing when telling new users what numbers to compare to. It could also make users confused in hunting for the highest total research output, compared to researching where it is "more important right now". What could be helpful in the game, is a measure of research capacity utilized, which also makes "overflow" clear. It would invite players to understand what the needed labs are, and what the screen actually shows.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 9:21:16 AM)
You are talking about something completely different, look at the wiki post I quoted. On the right is the TERP total potential research. Then there will be some big green or red bonuses that apply to that number, which will create the Actual total research potential, but that number is not shown. It would be really really useful if it was. You are talking about actual output which is different.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 9:29:34 AM)
Remember the OP was asking about research capacity not output.

Bingeling -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 10:36:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasty11 You are talking about something completely different, look at the wiki post I quoted. On the right is the TERP total potential research. Then there will be some big green or red bonuses that apply to that number, which will create the Actual total research potential, but that number is not shown. It would be really really useful if it was. You are talking about actual output which is different. The actual total research potential (or whatever the not shown number should be), would be mostly confusing and be a bit silly number that depends on the current status of research stations shot down or built. As explained. The screen does not get less confusing by adding another number. It already manages to be quite confusing at it is.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 10:55:54 AM)
All you examples are to do with OUTPUT not Potential, its getting like an echo chamber in here. Look at the example at the wiki : Research wiki TERP = 583K +25% from Democracy Gov Style, +15% From Race. It would be in no way confusing to show the number adjusted for the bonuses which is the ATRP. Its just being perverse to say that showing the ACTUAL number is more confusing than only showing the non adjusted non actual number.

fenrislokison -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 11:35:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daeromont1 (My original question is below, but I'm trying to post my game file. Even zipped, I get an error that it is too large...ideas on that?) no idea sorry ^^' quote: ORIGINAL: Daeromont1 1. Economy is tanking. My game was set to not trade techs, so that isn't something I could do. I probably expanded too quickly...but if so, I'd like some tips on what is 'enough' without falling too far behind. 2. I don't understand the tech side of things as to capacity. 3. Trade. I've been building every station I could to help my economy. Should I be focusing in one direction or another...and if so, how do I tell? 4. Fleet support: I have learned a lot from my previous reading and posts made on my earlier thread. But I am definitely open to further suggestions....particularly as they relate to what I might be doing wrong with fleet design and composition. 1. population is your main source of income generally and without doubt your most reliable one. So the best to do is to maximize growth until the colony is populated enough to be taxed. "Enough" is either max population if possible, or when growth start to stagnate (less than 3%, something like that). If your colony is at max population, tax the higher possible without dropping below 0 happiness. (I personnally try to stay at 10, so i can endure temporary happiness maluses like war weariness without having to adjust taxes). If your colony isn't at max population, keep the growth to around 1.5% to 2%. If you face resources shortages, it's probably because you built space ports at each colony, try to just have 1 spaceport per 3 to 4 colonies, even if it means not having medical facilities and recreational buildings for most of them. as a rule of thumb, i try to have 4 sources of strategic resources per spaceport (in the vincinity of each spaceport) and a lot of luxury resources (not like you can have too much of them anyways :) ) 2. Bingeling and Pasty's answers should be suffisant, you can eat popcorn will reading their bickering [:D] 3. don't worry about trade, it's working in the background, nothing much to do actively except put one (and only one) commerce center on spaceports and mining stations (mandatory in the designs anyways...). 4. i personnally do this: - one defensive fleet of 4 to 5 destroyers (half the maximum size available but a minimum of 300) on defense stance, nearby system range, automatic per system colonized. - one or more assault fleets of 30+ ships depending on my current cashflow (once my empire is going well, i avoid falling below 100k cashflow) - one fleet of troop transports (biggest possible transport troop to avoid too much docking/undocking from planets) hope this helps

Bingeling -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 12:09:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasty11 All you examples are to do with OUTPUT not Potential, its getting like an echo chamber in here. Look at the example at the wiki : Research wiki TERP = 583K +25% from Democracy Gov Style, +15% From Race. It would be in no way confusing to show the number adjusted for the bonuses which is the ATRP. Its just being perverse to say that showing the ACTUAL number is more confusing than only showing the non adjusted non actual number. That is wrong. The TERP depends on the bonus to each research branch, and the input in each branch depends on what distribution of labs happen to be present. The actual outputs are shown for each research branch.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 12:40:55 PM)
Its not wrong, some bonuses apply to TERP such as gov type and race type, some bonuses apply to output such as scientists and planetary bonuses. quote: Actual Output (AO) Actual Output factors in all relevant bonuses for each area of Research. To get each area's AO you need to take the base TRC for that area and multiply it by all relevant bonuses for that area. Let us illustrate from the picture: Weapons AO = TRC 200 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.26 = 362.25 =~ 362 Energy AO = TRC 80 x 1.25 x 1.15 = 115 HighTech AO = TRC 80 x 1.25 x 1.15 = 115 Important note: If the total TRC is higher than Its clear from all your posts you are conflating them together somehow. You are confusing CAPACITY with POTENTIAL CAPACITY.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 12:45:30 PM)
quote: TERP means how much physical research manpower you are able to employ. ARP means how much manpower you are able to employ including in your empire and government bonuses. TRC means how much physical lab space you have available. AO means how much research you actually produce in each area, including in all relevant bonuses.

Sieben_slith -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 2:13:12 PM)
So, just to make sure I understand, the wiki example shows TRC=360, TERP=583 and AO=592. So, even though actual output exceeds total empire capacity, this person needs to build (583-360) labs worth 223 more capacity? The manual contradicts itself on research saying at one point "If total actual output is less than this [Total Empire Potential], then the player should build more research facilities...". In the nest section (p.93) it says "Thus you should build enough research stations so that their Total Research Capacity always exceeds your Total Empire Research Potential." So, when adding research stations, what value should I use to track TERP, TRC or AO?

Sieben_slith -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:13:26 PM)
post deleted

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:18:11 PM)
Its not hard to understand, you have a fixed limit on how much research you can do, this is represented by TERP+ any bonuses. The number relates to all output in each field combined If you have stations that contribute more output than the fixed limit+bonus from Gov and Race then that capacity will not be used. However the fixed limit grows over time as your empire expands so having some redundant capacity is ok because it will be picked up as your empire grows. Also the forum does allow editing.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:24:19 PM)
Also the numbers in the wiki example are: Actual Out put: 326+115+115 = 556. Total Research Potential = 583 + 25% + 15% (which stack) So 583+25% =728 + 15% = 837. So output is 556 total potential is 837 so in this example you still have 837-556 = 281 points of research you can build before hitting the limit.

Sieben_slith -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:26:06 PM)
I figured out editing, that's why I deleted my second post. So, how about a simple answer to either of my simple questions? Or is that simply not possible?

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:27:43 PM)
I answered it, I dont know how I can make it any easier, its just not hard.

Sieben_slith -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 4:42:35 PM)
Sir, either we are looking at different screens or one of us doesn't understand basic arithmetic. Leaving that aside, you are saying that I should use Actual Output to track Total Empire Research Potential as modified by the plus or minus adjustments listed below it (something the manual definitely doesn't say). By the way, my definition of "stacking" is that you add the adjustments before applying them, not apply them one at a time. Any other opinions? If not, I will go with adjusting the number of labs so that total AO is equal to or slightly greater than TERP modified by the sum of listed adjustments. AO => (TERP x (sum of adjustments)). It would be nice if the manual and wiki simply said that, if of course it's true. And if it is, pasty11's point that TERP x modifiers should be shown on screen is perfectly valid. I know I'll be tracking a moving target as the game progresses since some modifiers affect TERP and some affect AO, but at least I'll know which one to track.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 6:08:29 PM)
My maths is absolutely fine, if you have other numbers show your work. I still dont understand where the confusion is, its a simple concept. AO how much you are doing, TERP x Modifiers = the maximum you can do. You dont have to adjust AO as that is all ready done. quote: Weapons AO = TRC 200 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.26 = 362.25 =~ 362 Could you explain what is confusing you as I simply cant what the problem is. Also it looks like I could have been wrong about one thing, those bonuses which apply to TERP are also applying to the research output in that example, e.g. 1.25 from Democ, 1.15 from race and then 1.26 from location. However the location bonuses does not apply to terp if the wiki is correct.

pycco -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 6:13:30 PM)
you are making something simple in to something very complicated, it says your total capacity with bonus included. if your total research "points" are more than your capacity you need to build more labs of needed type. how much each lab gives changes depending on the techs researched. how scientists work is the highest lvl is the first applied then 50% of the next highest lvl is applied, only one location per type will give you a bonus.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 6:17:15 PM)
Its not me I explained it simply and then guys are like whaaa I still dont get it. Also what you said is no simpler.

pasty11 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 6:19:29 PM)
In the Pic from WIKI, only the big green bonuses apply to the TERP and output, the bonuses in the smaller font only apply to output. Its that simple. However the number given for TERP is not adjusted to show how the GOV and Democ bonuses effect it, quote: Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) TERP is the largest number of researchers in your empire that could be dedicated to any combination of the three major areas of research, if you built enough laboratories to employ them. This upper limit of researchers is determined by the size of your empire's population and the state of its culture. If you increase either or both of these, the TERP will rise. It is useless to build more laboratories than your research potential can handle, so knowing this number can be helpful when considering your investments. TERP is modified by the green bonuses or red penalties shown directly beneath it, derived in the example above from the current form of Government and race. However, these modifications are not included in the TERP number. Thus the term Total is a bit misleading. Some players, therefore, find it useful to compute their empire's Adjusted Research Potential (ARP) (some call it Research Capability). This would be your empire's total research potential including the bonuses and penalties. The ARP is calculated as follows: TERP x Bonus1 x Bonus2 ... = Adjusted Research Potential thus, using the example above: 583 x 1.25 x 1.15 = 838

Sieben_slith -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/6/2014 7:51:47 PM)
Thank you, pasty11. You have given me what I wanted, specifically which numbers I should compare in trying to determine how many research labs to build. I think our disagreements may have come about because we were both online at the same time and ended up cross-posting. As for math, 583 x 1.25 x 1.15 is not the same as 583 x 1.40 (my definition of stacking), but if that's how it's calculated, so be it. It's still wrong. If you ever buy a car with a 10% discount from the manufacturer and a 5% discount from the dealer, I hope you'll remember that. Thanks again, and I hope I have not offended you.

Daeromont1 -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/9/2014 11:16:02 AM)
Thanks for all the help, folks. Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I sometimes go days without being able to post, due to family obligations. I did end up losing my second game as well, due to my economy, but that was largely a matter of implementing measures to counter the situation too late. I also had made some serious mistakes in setting up some of my options. I am starting game 3 tonight....and can't wait. :)

Andy06r -> RE: 2nd Game....Burn and Crash. (6/9/2014 6:34:54 PM)
Guys, your argument would be over by now if someone used a specific example. Republic has a +25% research bonus. This is to capacity. Total Potential - 300k Republic - +25% Actual potential (not shown) - 375k Proof? Build 380k of labs and notice hoe your actual output is not being scaled down.

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