RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (Full Version)

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Lucian -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 11:48:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

Check out the Liir who are the space faring dolphin race from Sword of the Stars I and II. Their ability to operate a technological society is explained by powerful telekinetic - based psionics and powered "battlesuits" with robot limbs. Of course you first have to swallow the idea that psionics and TK is even possible.... Makes sense if you can though.


One of my favorite sci-fi 'races' out there were the Vell-os from EV Nova. Even though technically human, they were still seperated from humanity by nearly several thousand years and had never gone through the Industrial Revolution, they travelled through space using spaceships built entirely out of psionic energy.

Of course, such would not really be doable in the context of Distant Worlds, since it would likely require a racial specific tech tree.

But is still an interesting idea none the less.


Definitely interesting, they sound a little like the Advent from Sins of a Solar Empire. Physically human but based on psionic rather than material - based tech. Obviously the race you describe has pushed the psionic angle well beyond anything the Advent ever achieved though.



xatharas -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 2:03:53 PM)

not only do I think they should bring out DW2, I believe they should do it via a kickstarter. Loving this game, but there's not much else to add to it with the current engine and AI.




Unforeseen -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 2:39:53 PM)

Oo i like the kickstarter idea.



Bingeling -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 2:58:03 PM)

No reason to use kickstarter to summon hype and butthurt if you don't need the money. I hope that DWU has given a good amount of cash to fund Elliot and maybe a few more resources to make a DW2.



Unforeseen -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 4:16:27 PM)

Perhaps but the more money they raise the more help they can hire, the more time they will put into it, the better engine they can develop etc etc etc etc. More money equals better game. There is no such thing as enough money when it comes to game development unless you are EA and want to half ass everything.



Bingeling -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 4:30:41 PM)

Software does not work like that.

Have you ever seen a crap AAA title?



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 4:51:35 PM)

The most important factor is not money but management. The Vanguard debacle is a huge example of this, Brad McQuaid got thrown out by microsoft after he blew 100M and could not even produce a playable demo. He is very lucky that SOE wanted him back otherwise he would probably be out of a job.



Tormodino -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 7:41:14 PM)

There are plenty of multimillion failures floating around, but I think the DW dev team isn't really registering on that same scale. A few more people messing with this game would have been a huge benefit.
I hope Universe was sufficiently succesful to fund a bigger dev team for whatever they have planned.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 9:54:45 PM)

Regarding alien races, i don't mind cats, insects, bears, rats or whatever. Not because i find them realistic, but because the'yre in the folklore of sci fi since star trek, star wars and others galactica and V.

But if i was to try to imagine a realistic space faring race, i would say that the necessary characteristic would be the ability to manipulate tools (with hands, tentacles or any organic way to grab items).
For example, i wouldn't believe in a space faring dolphin race because i would ask myself how the hell did they made their ships? But space faring insects are fine with me, as long as they use tools. Bees hives for example is a form of tool, the same kind of tool as our houses. Spiders' web is another form of tool.
I don't really believe in starship troopers or zerg insects because i don't believe in organic creatures being able to channel as much energy as a machine.

Another characteristic i find necessary, albeit debatable, is a reasonnable size in order to have a reasonnable-sized brain (or something alike). I'm not an expert at all in biology, but from what i've read from here and there, brain size is definetely important for "intelligence".
I don't believe in Bernard Weber's ants for example.

But all this is only valid if we're talking about a "first-generation intelligent" species, i mean a species that has developped from nothing but its own abilities.
Let's go back to the dolphins: let's say they have the potential to be "intelligent" as in "space faring capable", we could imagine a scenario where humans create tools to communicate with them, then give them a way to communicate with computers and machines, either "vocal" interface or cyberinterface and then either have the humans self destruct or dolphins destroy humans or even just a human/dolphin society.

So Lore can be used to explain pretty much everything we could find in space even if it doesn't make sense.


It's not that i dislike Cats, bugs or whatnots. and all the arguments of "it could be" really is missing the point as well- the reason I dislike them is because they are in essense "DEFAULT" for every 4x game coming down the pike, and every dev going simply copy/paste 's them from previous games and calls it quites....hense no real work ever done regarding LORE and is exactly why the races in general are regarded by most as 'ho-hum' because we've played them a zillion times already.

When i see gems like Emperor of the Fading Suns or a good wh40k or a DUNE --and the richness of it's LORE- and see the blandless of Dr. Dolittle's Default alien races in every 4x space game...I say it's about time they stop being so lazy and give an honest effort to create something with a little more depth in a universe that could be called "distant Worlds' when you see it rather than ...Ah, the races from EVERY GAME EVER DONE! how.....boring.

When i see the races of Star trek I KNOW it's startrek. Kingons! Romulons!, when I see the races from Battleship Galatica...I say, AH! Battleship Galactica....but when I see the races for DW it could be the races for Star drive, Moo4, Endless Space, Gal Civ......and on and on...there is absolutely nothing here to screams "This is distant Worlds!"....but rather...this is copyboy world...welcome to a vast generic default where the universe is ruled by default and the huge threat is....default.

Now i get the fact EVERYTHING HAS BEEN DONE before....what people do not get is cat vs dog is about all that is being done period. To me that is a very shallow way to do races. The dog will war with cat, the cat will war with hermit the frog, hermit will war with jimmy the cricket...and overall each race will be defined that way aside from some shallow default government bonus's....so there you are...took me all of half a day...I'm done...now going on to the rest of the game.

Mass effect was basically derived from the 2 star wars games Bioware had done previous...but they still put forth enough effort that you know it's Mass Effect when you see it. Emperor of the Fading Suns is wh40k meets Dune, but you know it's Fading Suns when you see it.

That is what DW2 needs. When I'm playing a race and I meet another one I should not be saying to myself..."AH, a cat race. Well. I'm a dog race....attack!" Instead I'd like something a little richer, I want to be saying, "AH the vorarkiii! Worshippers of GORI, reponsible for the 4th age dust war of the 9 red suns fueling their addiction to vers plants and discounting the 5 testiments of bagna!



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/23/2014 11:39:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyegore
When i see gems like Emperor of the Fading Suns or a good wh40k or a DUNE --and the richness of it's LORE- and see the blandless of Dr. Dolittle's Default alien races in every 4x space game...I say it's about time they stop being so lazy and give an honest effort to create something with a little more depth in a universe that could be called "distant Worlds' when you see it rather than ...Ah, the races from EVERY GAME EVER DONE! how.....boring.


I have no clue about Fading Suns or Dune, as I honestly have not read into either franchise, but Warhammer 40K I do know, so I will go with that. Warhammer 40K is not original. Infact, its races have roots in Tolkien which has been copied over and over more than anything else on this planet. Warhammer is also an excellent example that you hardly need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You can easily take even the most overused races and throw enough changes at them to make them feel fresh again.

quote:


When i see the races of Star trek I KNOW it's startrek. Kingons! Romulons!, when I see the races from Battleship Galatica...I say, AH! Battleship Galactica....but when I see the races for DW it could be the races for Star drive, Moo4, Endless Space, Gal Civ......and on and on...there is absolutely nothing here to screams "This is distant Worlds!"....but rather...this is copyboy world...welcome to a vast generic default where the universe is ruled by default and the huge threat is....default.


There is no MOO4. MOO franchise died with 3.

Also, MOO, Endless Space, and Galciv have completely different racial rosters which pokes an enormous hole in your argument.

Distant World's are actually fairly similar to MOO (but some notable differences), but considering MOO has been dead for over a decade, I think DW can be forgiven for that, especially since MOO has been the only game in the genre to produce a memorable roster, but a lot of that has to do with the huge amount of visual feedback it offered compared to other 4X games.

quote:


Mass effect was basically derived from the 2 star wars games Bioware had done previous...but they still put forth enough effort that you know it's Mass Effect when you see it. Emperor of the Fading Suns is wh40k meets Dune, but you know it's Fading Suns when you see it.


I have no clue what Fading Suns is, aside from it aping the crap out of medieval europe according to tvtropes. Mass Effect? Yeah, Mass Effect has millions of dollars of graphical assets from models/textures to concept art. You can turn even the most boring, least interesting races (*COUGH* ASARI *COUGH*) into something with that amount of firepower thrown at it. DW cannot possibly compete with that.

quote:


That is what DW2 needs. When I'm playing a race and I meet another one I should not be saying to myself..."AH, a cat race. Well. I'm a dog race....attack!" Instead I'd like something a little richer, I want to be saying, "AH the vorarkiii! Worshippers of GORI, reponsible for the 4th age dust war of the 9 red suns fueling their addiction to vers plants and discounting the 5 testiments of bagna!


Aside from the fact I never saw a 4X that had both cat and dog races, I generally find that relations are not as simple as you think. Infact, I distinctly remember in my 4X games, I always got along fairly well with the 'warlike' races but the diplomatic 'friendly' races were most unreliable due to their habit of jumping into military alliances with everyone and then accepting call to arms when one of those allies ends up being the xenophobic douchebag whom declares war on everyting.

Nevermind that I consider both examples to be bland. Both are static 'I hate you for arbitrary backstory reason' which are lame. The best casus bellis come from the in-game actions and ambitions of the factions, something Paradox understood very well when they crafted their games. Infact, Paradox games have satisfied my 4X 'itch' for years after the 4X genre crashed, even though their games are not technically 4X, and, in some areas, diplomacy especially, are lightyears ahead of anything the 4X genre has to offer.

Infact, Distant Worlds even acknowleges this a little, with the 'Wants your territory' and 'You are much stronger than us' negative maluses, but you still get rediculous situations like the Quameno peacefully colonizing 1/4 the galaxy with no military and multiple races not giving a crap despite blatent territorial encroachments.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 1:12:46 AM)

I have no clue what Fading Suns is, aside from it aping the crap out of medieval europe according to tvtropes. Mass Effect? Yeah, Mass Effect has millions of dollars of graphical assets from models/textures to concept art. You can turn even the most boring, least interesting races (*COUGH* ASARI *COUGH*) into something with that amount of firepower thrown at it. DW cannot possibly compete with that.

Mass Effect didn't work because of millions done in eyecandy, it worked because you did not fight a race because of 'What" it was but rather because of "Who" it was. Each had a history and an intertwined relationship with the others. Unlike DW, The Krogan aren't just another reptile who act like reptiles. With the help of the salarians, the krogan were "uplifted" into galactic society, and lent their numbers and military prowess to bring an end to the Rachni Wars. Ironically, after the rachni were eradicated, the rapidly-expanding krogan became a threat to the galaxy in turn, starting the Krogan Rebellions and forcing the turians to unleash the genophage. This genetic "infection" dramatically reduced fertility in krogan females, causing a severe drop in births secondary to prenatal and postnatal death and, ultimately, population, eliminating the krogan numerical advantage.

So if your playing The turians, a race I'd suspect was ripped right out of Battlestar Galatica in behavior- and you meet the Grogan...There's LORE there.

LORE matters. And LORE is why mass effect worked and the lack of it is why DW races are ho-hum.

Again. they need to get serious about LORE.

I don't play DW because of it's "world"...that is not interesting in the least. It's the game system. Contrary, though I deplore actiony RPG console games I play ME because of it's 'World'...I concider the actual game part ho-hum.

Imagine a game that has both? Now your talking epic greatness.



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 2:04:00 AM)

Mass Effect did work because of millions in eyecandy. Your exact example involving the Rachni and Krogan has a similar story in Distant Worlds. The Shakturi invaded from another Galaxy, and had managed to enlist the Insectoid races to help them (this was seen as a great betrayal). The Shakturi had more or less conquered the galaxy, and in a last-ditch effort, developed the Xaraktor virus in order to combat the Shakturi. The virus was effective, essentially rendering the Shakturi extinct, but it also killed a vast majority of the galaxy's sentients, leaving only a few isolated, low-tech planets from each race. Thus you have the shadow era where the races have to rebuild their space-faring civilizations from scratch.

Infact, I am suprised you never responded to my Asari comment considering that the Asari are pretty much fit the 'hot space babe' X4 trope to a T. There is even relevant Asari lore where it is encouraged by Asari culture to reproduce with aliens and that Asari whom are born to Asari-Asari couplings are stigmatized. Infact, nearly all of Mass Effect's races are walking stereotypes similar to 4X games, with the only subversions you will ever see, read, or hear about being the playable characters, which sort of reinforces my view that Bioware makes really great characters, but their stories and world building is nothing short of crap. Bioware's reputation largely comes from when they still had the D&D and Star Wars franchises and they did not have to worry about world building.

Also, over the course of the conversation, you went to disliking DW's races because of their physical attributes, to disliking them because the concepts were done before, to disliking them because of the lack of written quality lore. Out of those complaints, only the last one can actually be considered a valid complaint. The races could certainly use more backstory, especially what their interactions and positions were like before the Xaraktor virus wrecked everything. It would also be nice if races had more depth to them. An entire race will likely have individuals with a wide variety of motivations and beleifs, and while some races might have inclinations due to their physiology or psychology, they are hardly set in stone.



Lucian -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 3:16:11 AM)

When I play a 4x, I don't want to be force-fed vast reams of someone else's Lore, I want to forge my own lore as my fledgling world emerges onto the stage to conquer the stars. DW strikes a reasonable balance between spoon-feeding you modest amounts of Lore and creating your own history and racial interactions as you go, IMO at least. Creating something yourself is always more interesting than just having it dumped in your lap.



fenrislokison -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 8:29:59 AM)

@eyegore:
i think i misunderstood you indeed.
Correct me if i'm wrong, i thought you were asking for believable species, but you actually expect not only believable species but "explained" species as in "why they are here, how did they made it there, what are their relationships and history towards one another".

But, i think your examples are a bit unfair.
You want DW, or DW2 since it's the subject, to have a lore as developped as W40k, Dune or Fading Suns? or even Star Trek?
W40K is more than 25 years old. It is a board game with heavy influence coming from traditional RPG (suffice to look at the humans, orcs, eldars and chaos to have the most classical fantasy species: humans, orcs, elves and demons). So of course it has a heavy background! Not only coming from the rulebooks, but also from just books written by various authors.

Dune has been written by Franck Herbert, a hugely successful sci fi author who written the first novel 50 years ago and books are still coming out as we speak, even after Herbert's death, written by his children based on the incomplete work he left behind!

Even Emperors of the Fading Suns, if not as well know as the 2 precedents examples, is based on Fading Suns, a pen-and-paper RPG, for which, by definition, lore is fundamental.

So of course, these examples are great lore, but please, you can't realistically expect a 4X game small development team to write a lore even remotely close to these 3 examples, and moreover have a excellent gameplay, nice graphics and good balance.

One last thing is that DW features something like 20 species whereas these great examples only features less that half (even in Dune, only a handful of Houses are developped, or even named where there should be dozens). And this is good! Because i like to have a lot of rivals in a game. But writing a good lore for everyone of them would be even more difficult.


Besides, from another point of view, i think lore and 4x games aren't this compatible.

I may be wrong, but i think most 4x gamers like to start small and become big, but they also want every rivals to start small as well so you can have a fair competition.
Competition is, IMHO, what attracts gamers the most, especially gamers like us who like complicated stuff. Competition against AI or better, against other players when available.
And i don't think a deep and heavy lore, implying preestablished relationships, already set history and so on, will appeal on most players who rather plays in sandbox mode: everyone start the same, let the best one win.

I, for example, don't really like the shakturi events and i disabled them in every game.

There are 4x games that have tried to fit a "campaign mode", like Galciv and Fallen Enchantress, but i was never really attracted to this kind of thing because i don't expect a story from a "grand strategy" game since i expect, in such game, to write the story myself.



Unforeseen -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 2:40:47 PM)

The only reason i use the Shaktur story is because it helps to add flavor to the galaxy. An "Oh ****" moment if you will, to keep things from going stale on those long games.

But honestly, i've said this before and i'll say again... the story stinks. It makes no sense at all. There should be ruins everywhere, all over these planets and noone would be able to ignore them. There is no way a mass galactic memory loss would last for very long at all without mass destruction and leaving practically no evidence behind. And the pirates being there at game start? Don't get me started on how THAT makes no sense.



whiran -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 2:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyegore

That is what DW2 needs. When I'm playing a race and I meet another one I should not be saying to myself..."AH, a cat race. Well. I'm a dog race....attack!" Instead I'd like something a little richer, I want to be saying, "AH the vorarkiii! Worshippers of GORI, reponsible for the 4th age dust war of the 9 red suns fueling their addiction to vers plants and discounting the 5 testiments of bagna!



Do you like how Dwarf Fortress sets up civilizations?



ldog -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 7:10:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

When I play a 4x, I don't want to be force-fed vast reams of someone else's Lore, I want to forge my own lore as my fledgling world emerges onto the stage to conquer the stars. DW strikes a reasonable balance between spoon-feeding you modest amounts of Lore and creating your own history and racial interactions as you go, IMO at least. Creating something yourself is always more interesting than just having it dumped in your lap.


+1
I've seen great lore and ****ty gameplay. Or even great reading lore but ****ty show (Babylon5 comes to mind)



Cauldyth -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/24/2014 9:15:40 PM)

Yeah, I don't give a damn about lore either. These games should be about emergent storytelling, not pre-canned storytelling.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 12:42:18 AM)

@eyegore:
i think i misunderstood you indeed.
Correct me if i'm wrong, i thought you were asking for believable species, but you actually expect not only believable species but "explained" species as in "why they are here, how did they made it there, what are their relationships and history towards one another".

But, i think your examples are a bit unfair.
You want DW, or DW2 since it's the subject, to have a lore as developped as W40k, Dune or Fading Suns? or even Star Trek?
W40K is more than 25 years old. It is a board game with heavy influence coming from traditional RPG (suffice to look at the humans, orcs, eldars and chaos to have the most classical fantasy species: humans, orcs, elves and demons). So of course it has a heavy background! Not only coming from the rulebooks, but also from just books written by various authors.

Dune has been written by Franck Herbert, a hugely successful sci fi author who written the first novel 50 years ago and books are still coming out as we speak, even after Herbert's death, written by his children based on the incomplete work he left behind!

Even Emperors of the Fading Suns, if not as well know as the 2 precedents examples, is based on Fading Suns, a pen-and-paper RPG, for which, by definition, lore is fundamental.

So of course, these examples are great lore, but please, you can't realistically expect a 4X game small development team to write a lore even remotely close to these 3 examples, and moreover have a excellent gameplay, nice graphics and good balance.

One last thing is that DW features something like 20 species whereas these great examples only features less that half (even in Dune, only a handful of Houses are developped, or even named where there should be dozens). And this is good! Because i like to have a lot of rivals in a game. But writing a good lore for everyone of them would be even more difficult.


Besides, from another point of view, i think lore and 4x games aren't this compatible.

I may be wrong, but i think most 4x gamers like to start small and become big, but they also want every rivals to start small as well so you can have a fair competition.
Competition is, IMHO, what attracts gamers the most, especially gamers like us who like complicated stuff. Competition against AI or better, against other players when available.
And i don't think a deep and heavy lore, implying preestablished relationships, already set history and so on, will appeal on most players who rather plays in sandbox mode: everyone start the same, let the best one win.

I, for example, don't really like the shakturi events and i disabled them in every game.

There are 4x games that have tried to fit a "campaign mode", like Galciv and Fallen Enchantress, but i was never really attracted to this kind of thing because i don't expect a story from a "grand strategy" game since i expect, in such game, to write the story myself.


First. lore is not linear stories. Lore is the World. There are no preset things being force fed to anyone. Play a house in Emperor of the Fading Suns...it's Lore certainly gives it place in the World, and the house itself it's characteristics...but what happens is up to the player as it is in any game...be it Skyrim playing a Nord. Nords have their lore- but nothing is precanned and being forcefed- you can go any path you choose. The Lore just makes who you are playing richer and not just some icon with a few bonus stats.

Secondly...again the money argument is sooooo weak. Whitewolf- who made the world and game of Bloodlines, was who made the world and game of Emperor of the Fading Suns. And I will tell you back in 1996 when it was created Whitewolf was a heck of a lot smaller and did not enjoy near the customer base that Distant Worlds--now sitting on Steam--enjoys. It also did not enjoy the ease of developing in a modern game engine--and as someone who has used both- it's like black and white compared to HD color. Developing now is 100x easier, faster...and cheaper than in was in the mid 90s. There is no comparison at all.

you do not need to be an EA to create an interesting world. You just need the desire to.

Heck I've been working on a game now some 3 plus years in my spare time-which is little, with my spare change-which is little, and this is what I've been doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iK9ROELId0#t=84


Give me 1/10th of their budget I'd have been working on it fulltime and I'd be done....by myself.



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 1:20:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyegore

Secondly...again the money argument is sooooo weak. Whitewolf- who made the world and game of Bloodlines, was who made the world and game of Emperor of the Fading Suns. And I will tell you back in 1996 when it was created Whitewolf was a heck of a lot smaller and did not enjoy near the customer base that Distant Worlds--now sitting on Steam--enjoys.


You do realize that Distant Worlds is only being devleoped by one person? Even a quick google search shows that White Wolf was hardly that small when it was founded (actually as a merger), it had at least a half dozen employees. Code Force is, even currently, a one-man show.

quote:


It also did not enjoy the ease of developing in a modern game engine--and as someone who has used both- it's like black and white compared to HD color. Developing now is 100x easier, faster...and cheaper than in was in the mid 90s. There is no comparison at all.


Costs have been largely static since the 90s. If anything, costs have actually increased for AAA gaming since generally the more detailed models and textures, as well as the complexity of the code, the more manpower it takes thus increasing the expenditures. People were developing great games out of their garage in the 90s, and DW is largely reminicent of that. However, your trying to compare Distant Worlds, a largely one-man show thats only had a game out for 4 years, with multi-million dollar franchises with decades of history behind it. That does not make for very good comparisons.

quote:


you do not need to be an EA to create an interesting world. You just need the desire to.


The problem is that you do not want interesting. You want verbose. You want thousands of years of history and novel-length backstories. It sounds impressive but it is not cheap.

quote:


Heck I've been working on a game now some 3 plus years in my spare time-which is little, with my spare change-which is little, and this is what I've been doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iK9ROELId0#t=84


Is fairly impressive no doubt, but it is a hell of a lot easier to make a model in 3dsmax than it is to actually rig it and get it to work properly in game. You are also working on an existing IP which means you already have all your backstory written for you, and is completely useless for commercialization because you would need to acquire (likely expensive) licensing rights.

quote:


Give me 1/10th of their budget I'd have been working on it fulltime and I'd be done....by myself.


You probably would be panhandling on the streets with 1/10th of DW's budget...



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 1:57:23 AM)

Actually I am creating the IP...not using existing IP. Emperor's Bane from the ground up is my creation. And again, 2 people...READ TWO-created the World of Emperor of the Fading suns. 6 worked on the game--had they been using a modern engine--and believe me something like Unity 3d that costs $1500 today would have cost a quarter million in 1996- so your dead wrong on the cost of developing as well.- one person could have done what it took 6 to do back then given the ease of Unity asset flow.And yes, done it far cheaper as well.

I've made and rigged models in 6 games...likely one you have played...It's not that hard today as it was in 1996--and again I've worked in both eras and times on games. I know first hand. My first language was assembly...to OS-9 on the Motorala 6800 Micro processor years before there ever was x386 anything- and c# nowadays is a walk in the park compared to those days. In those days there could be an 8 step process just to get a model in an engine intack that took from hours to days....today it's a mouse click-and other mouse click to animate in the engine-directly from 3d Max.

The Maldicion, the winged girl in the vid, orinally had normal eyes and ears and was completely naked except for her wings and piercings. She didn't look evil enough so some clothes on her, gave her black eyes and pointy ears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzmAzkWZcE&fmt=22

Another race important to the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0JVr7kFCLk&fmt=22

and an early trailer--the game has changed some what. combat will be traditional and not card based-- and Nick Russo left the project due to divorce and other issues- but it does show my ability to rig and animate in the least.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTxI-idQick





Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 2:20:12 AM)

What you are referring to specifically is that the cost for high-end 3D games has gone down, and even then it is still far more expensive then your average indie game. Also, while the Unity engine is cheaper, you still have to hire people to make the concept art, models, textures, animations and pay them. There are also things like code and 2D sprites which have not gotten much cheaper since the 1990s.

quote:


Actually I am creating the IP...not using existing IP. Emperor's Bane from the ground up is my creation.


The vid specifically mentions it being a 'Spiritual sequel' to Emperor of the Fading Suns. It is not even trying to be original work.

quote:


I've made and rigged models in 6 games...likely one you have played...


I am going to need verification on this.

quote:


The Maldicion, the winged girl in the vid, orinally had normal eyes and ears and was completely naked except for her wings and piercings. She didn't look evil enough so some clothes on her, gave her black eyes and pointy ears.


Curious... Cannot say im a fan though, they are essentially humans with different color skin. But I suppose whatever floats your boat.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 3:03:53 AM)

I haven't hired anybody. I'm no artist and I'm not much of a modeler or animator either- and I throw 99 percent out because it's crap- until I struggle to get close to what I have in my minds' eye---that takes time- mainly because I'm not any of those. For other things there's assets you aquire from freelancers when you can afford them. I generally end up with a fair mix between stuff I create and stuff I can afford to buy- but mostly I buy what i know I cannot do very well- like certain animals like horses.

But the point is, your at first telling me you need to be multi-million dollar company to create good interesting worlds or good models---I ain't none of that- and I am currently doing it. Out of pocket. In 1996 there weren't as many gamers TOTAL as there is as a customer base of a Steam game DW enjoys--if they wanted to, they could create their own world ala EMTFS--it's a choice- will I expend the time or effort or just copy /paste

As to your suggestion Emperor's Bane is a copy/Paste of Fadings it is not- it is but one game that inspires it, along with DUNE and a few others-it's exactly how Fading Suns came to be- being influenced by WH40k to Dune and a few other others--but in the end Fading suns becomes it's own ungue world- and Emperor's Bane-though still unfinished, becomes it's own world-dispite you last insulting jab.

How good or Interesting? As well as I am capable. I'm not about to throw a hampster in a space suite and say, "Done." Even if that does apparantly float your boat in DW.

It is true when your in buisness-time equals money, and it is also true 2d art remains pretty much even cost wise-- look at Jeff Vogel at Spiderweb. Version 1 RPG may release just male choice graphics, then the sequel will have more as he adds as he can afford. That's one guy, with some part time help from his wife- who BTW does post sales figures and cost-all 2d.

But DW has had years of sales in multiple expansions and now enjoying tremendous sales on Steam...often in the top 10..that dwarfs any sales Witewolf could have dreamed of in 1996 having to compete for brick and Mortar Space.and engines like Unity do also 2d as easily as they do 3d. (though I would not choose that particular engine for DW for other reasons).

The point being, they are fully capable of putting the effort in Lore if they choose-- and it would only benefit them as it would benefit the game- which equals of course more sales.



Lucian -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 5:25:15 AM)

I love space games but I have absolutely no interest in the whole "fudal-medieval-houses-in-space" thing so for me all the lore in that game would be something I would have to try very hard to ignore in order to enjoy the game. Much better would be to design a game with a more general space setting where I can use my own imagination and actions to forge my *own* lore and create my *own* history and interactions as I go.

Everyone is different and everyone likes different things. By making the lore so detailed and specific you are seriously narrowing your potential audience to only those who precisely share your particular vision. The more detailed the Lore, the worse the problem becomes and the narrower your audience. Nobody wants to be force-fed large amounts of detail and exposition that they either don't care about or even worse actively dislike.



fenrislokison -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 9:35:09 AM)

The Lore just makes who you are playing richer and not just some icon with a few bonus stats.

This is where we really disagree. No offense intended, I understand your point completely, and it's a valid one, but i just happen to think differently.
When i play a strategy game such as DW, i don't want to play someone (the "who you are playing" of your sentence), i just want to play the game.

You mentioned Skyrim (very good game btw), and one thing i like about Skyrim (and all Elder Scroll games) is that you start as a nobody and climb out your way. The lore you're talking about as nothing to do with my character. The game needs the lore in a rpg such as Skyrim, but your character is not part of the lore, except if it has something to do with the plot/goal of the game.

I like to play something where i'm not tied to the lore, and having said that, the lore is then just some fluff, a secondary option in a game where the primary option is to manage an empire/kill critters/clear dungeons or whatever. It's as secondary in my eyes as the ability to have a house, marry someone and adopt childs. The main point is combat system, quest system, leveling system and the main story.

Don't get me wrong, i do like to read the stories in the books found in Skyrim, but once again, comparing Skyrim, the 5th or 6th sequel of a RPG series that always had an emphasis on background and fluff since the first Arena with DW, the first opus of a grand strategy game which focus on technical options (i won't say gameplay since gameplay imply a nice, efficient UI which is not one of DW strong point sadly), is like comparing apples and bananas.

You mentioned the Whitewolf games.. well, too bad, i really dislike the lore of whitewolf games because it is totally incompatible with the game system. So much powerful abilities, so much influence and wealth, and you say they need the Masquerade because they fear humans? Add to that werewolves, fairies, mages and so on and it's a miracle that humans have even survived, let alone be the main species on the planet.

So ok, there are default races in DW, maybe a lack of imagination or lazyness or whatever reason.
You are right to say the races and lore are nothing special and maybe it should be improved. But reading you, i really have the feeling that even if you say lore is no preset things being force fed to anyone, you actually want a heavy lore, influencing the game so that you have the same kind of feelings than when reading a book or playing a real pen-and-paper roleplaying game.

I'm not this kind of player, when i'm playing Hearts of Iron, i usually play as Japan, not because i like mangas, but because Japan is on the historical losing side, has the war initiative being a axis country but not as powerful as Germany while still capable of worldwide conquest.
When playing Mount & Blades, i select initial options that'll give me the bonus points in the skills i want.
When playing Dawn of War, i appreciate the story between missions, but i don't roleplay the missions, i go for the most efficient strategy i can imagine.

I think your opinion could be more persuasive if you could relate lore and gameplay using successful examples of similar games.
But my experience tells me lore and strategy games don't get along as well as RPG games and lore do.
I did play Emperors of Fading Suns and found it similar as Civ1 in space. The lore didn't really help the game when it started to be a tedious as the AI created insane number of units on all planets it settled.
I did play Dune 1 and 2, and if the first one did try to put the lore in the game, i didn't feel anything like reading the books. It was just meet tribes, gather spice (ie money), wait first attack of harkonnens, get rid of harkonnens.  Once again, the lore didn't help in making the game better.
Of course, Dune 2, being a RTS, didn't need and didn't use the lore at all.
And i talked about Dawn of War, which used the lore nicely for the story-based campaigns of vanilla and winter assault, but actual gameplay was not really tied to it. The lore disappeared from the game in the 3rd and 4th expansions based on free-for-all campaign with 2 sentences of background.
Dawn of War 2 felt more like Diablo in W40k than actually feel like a space marine commander.


Lastly, you said that money argument is not a good one. Well, if it isn't, what is? I'm sure Elliot and Erik really like to work on DW, but i'm fairly sure that they wouldn't if DW was not a project enabling them to live, pay their bills, foods and entertainments.
Beside, a small team doesn't just means small budget, it also means not a lot of people. Elliot seems to be a great game designer, developper and software architect, but it doesn't mean he's also a great writer and story teller.
And even if they had someone who could write great background, they would still need someone able to merge the great background and the great game design into one great game.
To my knowledge, no game has ever reach this kind of perfection, not even revered games like MoO2.

It seems you think you have what it takes, clear ideas on what to do, how to do and so on, and i hope it's true because it'll mean i'll have a hell of a nice time playing your games in the future, but with all due respect, i doubt it.
I think game design is hard, and even a good game design doesn't mean success. Be it videos games, pen-and-paper rpg or just classical board games.
I think writing and story telling is hard and good writing and good story telling don't mean success.
I think project and budget management is hard, and same, good doesn't imply success.
And lastly, I think gifted people able to do all these things are even more harder to find.

As proof, there have been countless games launched and forgotten, there are countless early access games which will never make it to even beta, countless books written by unknown authors which didn't even pass the editor step.

So, once again, no hard feelings, but i'm definetely not convinced by your arguments about lore and its supposedly easiness to create and include in a strategy 4x game like DW.



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 11:11:20 AM)

quote:


But the point is, your at first telling me you need to be multi-million dollar company to create good interesting worlds or good models---I ain't none of that- and I am currently doing it. Out of pocket. In 1996 there weren't as many gamers TOTAL as there is as a customer base of a Steam game DW enjoys--if they wanted to, they could create their own world ala EMTFS--it's a choice- will I expend the time or effort or just copy /paste


That was never my point to begin with. My original point was that you are unfairly comparing Distant Worlds to franchises, not even games, franchises that have had millions of dollars and decades of time and content put into them. DW could never, ever compete with that. You would need a huge, huge quantity of artists and writers, and you would have to pay those artists and writers. TANSTAAFL.

quote:


How good or Interesting? As well as I am capable. I'm not about to throw a hampster in a space suite and say, "Done." Even if that does apparantly float your boat in DW.


As soon as I saw your videos, presuming they are your videos, you lost all credibility with me on this. You complain about hamsters in space suits yet your provided alternative are essentially pallette swapped humans. This is my personal opinion of course, but if the full extent of physical difference between your aliens and humans is going to be skin pigmentation and pointy ears than you might as well not bother having aliens at all. I forgive Star Trek and Babylon 5 for doing this because of budgetary reasons on costuming but you are working entirely with CGI.

quote:


But DW has had years of sales in multiple expansions and now enjoying tremendous sales on Steam...often in the top 10..that dwarfs any sales Witewolf could have dreamed of in 1996 having to compete for brick and Mortar Space.and engines like Unity do also 2d as easily as they do 3d. (though I would not choose that particular engine for DW for other reasons).


Until Steam, DW has been, at best, a niche game, with a limited userbase partly due to lack of advertisement, and partly due to high barrier of entry due to the high price of the base game + expansions. I would be suprised if Code Force was barely able to make enough revenue to pay the bills. As for Steam, you do realize that Distant Worlds released on steam only a month ago? Even if Code Force made a million billion dollars, it will take a very, very long time before it starts to show in game development.

As for WhiteWolf, yes, destribution is much easier and better than ever, but there was a lot less competition for shelf space back in the 90s. The increased shelf space competition was a huge part as to why there was a lot of consolidation in video gaming in the 2000s, game devs either grew or went out of business and the increasing barriers to entry made it difficult for new companies to compete.

Another issue I am having is that you are comparing Distant Worlds to games that are not even 4Xs, but rather mainly RPGs. RPGs generally require a more well-defined universe for many reasons. Distant Worlds however is not an RPG, it is a 4X, and a huge part of being a 4X is that the player (and NPCs) have full agency over their factions, they can choose to ally and war whomever they want, and fight their wars however they please.

quote:


To my knowledge, no game has ever reach this kind of perfection, not even revered games like MoO2.


You know, even the first two MOOs were rather mediocre 4Xs if you only just looked at the gameplay. What set MOO1 and 2 apart was the amount of visual feedback. Something as simple as racial specific GUIs where you encounter members of your own race in every menu screen really set the game apart from other 4Xs which largely throw lifeless spreadsheets and maps at you and expect you to get immersed with that. MOO3 flopped largely because it completely forgotten what it was that made MOO great to begin with.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 12:25:16 PM)

That was never my point to begin with. My original point was that you are unfairly comparing Distant Worlds to franchises, not even games, franchises that have had millions of dollars and decades of time and content put into them. DW could never, ever compete with that. You would need a huge, huge quantity of artists and writers, and you would have to pay those artists and writers. TANSTAAFL.

Franchise's? Emperor of the fading Suns was short lived. Only 1 rulebook and then a second suplimentary- and one game. After that they went belly up. DW on the other hand has survived and has expansions, and is set up for a sequel. Mainly because of the vastly different user base- in 1996 computer games in general as a whole were nitch, today the sales of computer games exceeds Hollywood.If MOTFS is a tried and true Franchise then DW is that plus 10x more.

As soon as I saw your videos, presuming they are your videos, you lost all credibility with me on this. You complain about hamsters in space suits yet your provided alternative are essentially pallette swapped humans. This is my personal opinion of course, but if the full extent of physical difference between your aliens and humans is going to be skin pigmentation and pointy ears than you might as well not bother having aliens at all. I forgive Star Trek and Babylon 5 for doing this because of budgetary reasons on costuming but you are working entirely with CGI.


Wether your taste or not, dispite the bugginess, practically dead A.I., obtuse GUI and difficulty learning it- countless fan patches have fueled a game people want to play dispite all that- mainly because of the world it offers up. You say it's a civ clone- well actually it's focus is a 4x space game that doesn't ignore ground combat- your taking planets over- and each in this game was different and ungue. Wait until you experience a game before dismissing it. You may be surprised.

You know, even the first two MOOs were rather mediocre 4Xs if you only just looked at the gameplay. What set MOO1 and 2 apart was the amount of visual feedback. Something as simple as racial specific GUIs where you encounter members of your own race in every menu screen really set the game apart from other 4Xs which largely throw lifeless spreadsheets and maps at you and expect you to get immersed with that. MOO3 flopped largely because it completely forgotten what it was that made MOO great to begin with.

Now your getting closer to my point. Endless space is another example- where they barely ever even show you a race image except at intial game setup. The Lore was wasted in that game. Funny they are taking a stab towards games like MOM or Enchantress when they failed so miserably in Endless Space on Lore. Lore is there to grab you. You say you play Japan in HOI-well what if Paradox said, screw LORE...this is grand strategy. Japan is red, USA blue and germany Grey--and tossed that lore out? Lore does exist in HOI- it's what defines it's units, it's resources and abilities and it does it by not stortelling, it simply does it by Lore defining who Japan is. The game is as open as any. There is no verbose anything. That's the Lore of which i speak--and it has nothing whatsoever TO DO WITH ADVENTURE GAMING, novella's or whatnot. In fact if Japan doesn't act as it's LORE dictates forums fill up with complaints, wether it's, "the A.I. failed to attack X...to, the ship combat is not right"

As soon as I saw your videos, presuming they are your videos, you lost all credibility with me on this. You complain about hamsters in space suits yet your provided alternative are essentially pallette swapped humans. This is my personal opinion of course, but if the full extent of physical difference between your aliens and humans is going to be skin pigmentation and pointy ears than you might as well not bother having aliens at all. I forgive Star Trek and Babylon 5 for doing this because of budgetary reasons on costuming but you are working entirely with CGI.

Dune had but on weird looking Alien, EMPFS had but one, symbiots. Your of the belief any other space fairing race MUST look differently from humanoid but both of these worlds say no, they do not. Who they are are different. Not What they are--and it works. Emperor's Bane will also have 1 alien not so humanoid--but it still will not be a talking roach--it will have the PHYSICAL TOOLS necessary to be in Space. Right now I got more than a dozen different takes on it, none of which I am happy with yet--one does have a tail.

Your overall message is...it's too hard. If it's not easy it should not be done. I reject that notion. You don't choose not to do something because it's hard. You do the best you can do, hard or not, and let things fall where they may.



Nanaki -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 2:15:01 PM)

Wether your taste or not, dispite the bugginess, practically dead A.I., obtuse GUI and difficulty learning it- countless fan patches have fueled a game people want to play dispite all that- mainly because of the world it offers up. You say it's a civ clone- well actually it's focus is a 4x space game that doesn't ignore ground combat- your taking planets over- and each in this game was different and ungue. Wait until you experience a game before dismissing it. You may be surprised.

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I never said it was a civ clone. I honestly have no idea what it is, other than that its a rulebook for a pen and paper I never heard of.

Now your getting closer to my point. Endless space is another example- where they barely ever even show you a race image except at intial game setup. The Lore was wasted in that game. Funny they are taking a stab towards games like MOM or Enchantress when they failed so miserably in Endless Space on Lore. Lore is there to grab you. You say you play Japan in HOI-well what if Paradox said, screw LORE...this is grand strategy. Japan is red, USA blue and germany Grey--and tossed that lore out? Lore does exist in HOI- it's what defines it's units, it's resources and abilities and it does it by not stortelling, it simply does it by Lore defining who Japan is. The game is as open as any. There is no verbose anything. That's the Lore of which i speak--and it has nothing whatsoever TO DO WITH ADVENTURE GAMING, novella's or whatnot. In fact if Japan doesn't act as it's LORE dictates forums fill up with complaints, wether it's, "the A.I. failed to attack X...to, the ship combat is not right"

Well... you are pretty much right, lore does not exist in HOI. Units are exactly the same regardless of which faction you pick, the only thing that changes between factions is weither your infantry is called a Panzergrenadier division or a Mechanized division, what events/decisions you get, and your starting location. Most complaints about the AI generally either have to do with the AI's incompetance, or genuine gameplay issues completely unrelated to lore. Infact, Paradox has stated themselves that they want to move away from railroading players down history and instead have the player's actions tell the story. Given, Paradox also gives you a ton more tools as well, you have all kinds of complex diplomatic options, and the AIs have all kinds of differing attitudes which define what the AI does. Distant Worlds is taking the first steps on doing something like this, and there is a lot of encouragement, infact the #1 demanded request from DW is more diplomatic options.

Also, HOI is probably the most historically railroaded of Paradox's games, many of their other games are even more open-ended than HOI.


Dune had but on weird looking Alien, EMPFS had but one, symbiots. Your of the belief any other space fairing race MUST look differently from humanoid but both of these worlds say no, they do not. Who they are are different. Not What they are--and it works. Emperor's Bane will also have 1 alien not so humanoid--but it still will not be a talking roach--it will have the PHYSICAL TOOLS necessary to be in Space. Right now I got more than a dozen different takes on it, none of which I am happy with yet--one does have a tail.


It is personal preference. I am not a huge fan of certain types of aliens, but at the same time I am not going to ask the developers of DW to remove them, as I sort of understand that other people may have different tastes in their xenobiology than I do. Infact, that is all I ask, is for other people's tastes to be respected. Nobody likes their favorite races being removed from the game, it unnecessarily antagonizes fans and unnecessarily removes variety. You do not have to play with the talking roaches, you could have nothing to do with them, exterminate them from your galaxy, or even, with some very simple mods, mod them out of your local version entirely.

Let other people enjoy what they like.

Your overall message is...it's too hard. If it's not easy it should not be done. I reject that notion. You don't choose not to do something because it's hard. You do the best you can do, hard or not, and let things fall where they may.

Sounds like the attitude of developers whom think they have unlimited time and money to perfect something.

The game industry is littered with the corpses of failed developers whom tried to develop more than they had the budget or time to do. Duke Nukem Forever should be a cautionary tale, not a rolemodel to aspire to.



Unforeseen -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 9:44:10 PM)

Yeah so this argument is hard to follow, it's shifting around using other games as an example while we should just be talking about DW. I did capture one point that I want to press my own opinion about and that is Racial Lore. There is no reason not to include racial lore because one or two players prefers a robo game where their race only stands for stats and mechanics. "I just want to play", you can play without concerning yourself with the lore. Just ignore it, or rewrite it if its such a big deal to you. But imo in a 4x space game there should be descriptive and logical races with backrounds to support their existence.

The Atuuk are a prime example of what not to do when building lore. Based on the limited information provided about them it is EXTREMELY improbable for them to become a space faring race, let alone an empire.

Going back to the MOO series, the Silicoids are another example of what not to do. They are a crystal formation that can barely move, and can barely reproduce. They would be completely useless as described in ground combat, and would have a near to impossible time constructing buildings and ships. Such a race would not, in a reasonable amount of time and in their current stage of "evolution" be capable of joining the other more capable races as a 'space empire'. Keeping such races in the game for flavor is stupid, anyone can come up with a better race to fit the role they were looking to fill with this race.

Or how about the Eoladi? I don't see any way for this race to accomplish anything. At all. The same with the other gasbag race. They don't build ships, they don't have facilities. They just float around the outskirts of gas giants. None of it makes sense.



eyegore -> RE: The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary? (6/25/2014 11:15:28 PM)

Well... you are pretty much right, lore does not exist in HOI. Units are exactly the same regardless of which faction you pick, the only thing that changes between factions is weither your infantry is called a Panzergrenadier division or a Mechanized division, what events/decisions you get, and your starting location. Most complaints about the AI generally either have to do with the AI's incompetance, or genuine gameplay issues completely unrelated to lore. Infact, Paradox has stated themselves that they want to move away from railroading players down history and instead have the player's actions tell the story. Given, Paradox also gives you a ton more tools as well, you have all kinds of complex diplomatic options, and the AIs have all kinds of differing attitudes which define what the AI does. Distant Worlds is taking the first steps on doing something like this, and there is a lot of encouragement, infact the #1 demanded request from DW is more diplomatic options.

Also, HOI is probably the most historically railroaded of Paradox's games, many of their other games are even more open-ended than HOI.


Indeed- I think thier latest games have really been out of the park. Actually since victoria2, then CK2 and EU4--all excellent, far from the disasterous HOI3- Which at that point i was about to give up on them.

It is personal preference. I am not a huge fan of certain types of aliens, but at the same time I am not going to ask the developers of DW to remove them, as I sort of understand that other people may have different tastes in their xenobiology than I do. Infact, that is all I ask, is for other people's tastes to be respected. Nobody likes their favorite races being removed from the game, it unnecessarily antagonizes fans and unnecessarily removes variety. You do not have to play with the talking roaches, you could have nothing to do with them, exterminate them from your galaxy, or even, with some very simple mods, mod them out of your local version entirely.

Let other people enjoy what they like.

No one has asked anyone to remove anything. That is fanboyism putting words in my mouth. NOWHERE have I stated such a thing. I stated get serious with the lore and to open up the modding so I can have races like the ones that exist in EOTFS if I want to mod them in. I have already modded out the bugs in DW- what I cannot do is mod in the races I truely want..because the game does not support it.

Sounds like the attitude of developers whom think they have unlimited time and money to perfect something.

The game industry is littered with the corpses of failed developers whom tried to develop more than they had the budget or time to do. Duke Nukem Forever should be a cautionary tale, not a rolemodel to aspire to.

And for the failures there are the successes as well. the most recent being Xenonaughts. Of all the xcom wannabe's they got it mostly right when other's have fallen on thier face. Just a single guy at times. That project went on for far longer than a decade going through all kinds of trouble- the main programmer leaving, an engine jump, money, fans blasting them they'd never finish....that they bit off more than they can chew.

Went live early this month...heck now on GOG as well. It ain't perfect- but it is basically the game they wanted to create- a pretty good XCOM in all regards zans the A.I. and the interceptor combat- all fully modable. They stuburnly stuck to their guns and good for them. Others on the horizon with equal troubles about to see the light of day...Age of Decadence...another decades plus struggle- all these games I'm glad I'm seeing, I'm glad they stuck it out- regardless of the difficulty- from money to know -how. These guys PROVE it can be done dispite the nay sayers.

Heck yeah it's hard and heck ya it's often a dice role. So what? It's how good games come about.



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