Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (Full Version)

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Aquitaine -> Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/26/2014 11:23:28 PM)

In going through the various introductory tomes, guides, and videos, there is one subject that I can't quite wrap my head around: the function of star ports versus star bases.

I get that star ports have a special, built-in role as resource repositories and that you should 'not have too many of them' because otherwise freighters go berserk trying to fill all your starports. So many folks suggest builting starbases over every colony.

Some say make them as simple as possible - no weapons, just medical, recreation, docking. Others say put guns on every one of them.

Two questions:

1) How am I meant to know when I am 'ready' for another star port? I am on my 4th colony and my advisors are telling me to build a starport even though I just sent a construction ship to build a starbase instead. I assume I should ignore them because I only want a handful of starports throughout the game?

2) Static defenses on starbases or more ships? Is it more valuable to have your typical floating colony base be dirt cheap or versatile?

2a) Why is it important that the colony be able to build any kind of base at all right away - why not just follow my colony ship with a constructor ship and have it build a proper base over the colony?



Unforeseen -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/26/2014 11:42:13 PM)

O : You've got em reversed, space ports are the ones you build around the planets. Star ports are the ones that can be built anywhere. Having a space port in key strategic locations, and in clusters with key resources surrounding it. Spaceports should act primarily as a hub and you have to ask yourself where such a "stash" would be most beneficial to your empire and easy to protect as well. They can also act as a strategic base in areas where you might need increased production capability, extra docking bays for refueling etc etc. Star Ports on the other hand are[if you design them yourself] capable of performing a multitude of different roles and are best built when you have a purpose in mind. I myself use them as checkpoint stations or bulk production.

1 : I sorta answered this in O. You just have to make a judgement call, it's not based on the number of planets but rather where they are and whether or not your current spaceport is at or nearing its maximum capacity.

2 : Depends on your play style. Whether you give these bases their own offensive abilities or not, always give them Point Defense weapons. I like to have at least 1 or 2 fighter bays as well.

2a : I don't understand the question.



necaradan666 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 12:39:23 AM)

You keep saying starports instead of star bases... Way to confuse the guy haha



pycco -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 1:01:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aquitaine

In going through the various introductory tomes, guides, and videos, there is one subject that I can't quite wrap my head around: the function of star ports versus star bases.

I get that star ports have a special, built-in role as resource repositories and that you should 'not have too many of them' because otherwise freighters go berserk trying to fill all your starports. So many folks suggest builting starbases over every colony.

Some say make them as simple as possible - no weapons, just medical, recreation, docking. Others say put guns on every one of them.

Two questions:

1) How am I meant to know when I am 'ready' for another star port? I am on my 4th colony and my advisors are telling me to build a starport even though I just sent a construction ship to build a starbase instead. I assume I should ignore them because I only want a handful of starports throughout the game?

2) Static defenses on starbases or more ships? Is it more valuable to have your typical floating colony base be dirt cheap or versatile?

2a) Why is it important that the colony be able to build any kind of base at all right away - why not just follow my colony ship with a constructor ship and have it build a proper base over the colony?


1. i build 1 space port per 4 sectors, the one above my HW is a massive construct. the HW port has all the research labs and 30+ construction yards. for the other planets i build a smaller port mainly for refueling, repairing and eases of transporting resources to build sites.
space ports tell the ai to stock pile resources at that location, if you'r empire is does not have enough resources it can lead to shortages, ships will be build at all space ports this will cause ships to be spread out when being built.

2. what each planet needs above them is a commerce center, recreation center, medical center. the rec and med centers give bonuses to the colony, the commerce center sells good from that world with out it you are giving resources away for free.

i build defensive bases above colonized planets, a bare bones module to get the bonuses ASAP.
once that is done i upgrade it to a defensive base with more guns and defenses. they can also house construction yards.

star bases and defensive bases are similar, the ai uses them in different roles. i use star bases as forward bases for a dependable location if i have to fall back and regroup,repair.



Unforeseen -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 1:08:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: necaradan666

You keep saying starports instead of star bases... Way to confuse the guy haha

:P I couldn't remember what it was called, i haven't played a game since i started stalling waiting for patches and modders to update their mods. So it's been months aside from a few short pirate games that i only played for like 1O to 2O minutes tops.



Emetivore -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 1:34:00 AM)

Ok let me see if I understand..

You're saying to:

build one small star port per 4 sectors;
Build defensive bases with med/commerce/rec everywhere else;
And a large star port at home;
Star bases are only for military ops.

Is that right? This might be the key I've been missing so far! I've been building a small (tiny) star port above every single world, and those are exactly the problems I've been having in my games.



pycco -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 1:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emetivore

Ok let me see if I understand..

You're saying to:

build one small star port per 4 sectors;
Build defensive bases with med/commerce/rec everywhere else;
And a large star port at home;
Star bases are only for military ops.

Is that right? This might be the key I've been missing so far! I've been building a small (tiny) star port above every single world, and those are exactly the problems I've been having in my games.


that is what i do, some build a small space port in every system in the late game.i don't use any other space ports other than my HW one i really don't like my ships being constructed all over the place.by putting construction yards and manufacturing plants on any station to allow for repair as long as the station is above a planet it does not need cargo it will use the planet as a storage center.
you could build star ports instead of defensive bases that's your call, the effect would be the same as long as the components are the same.



Spidey -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:07:16 AM)

quote:

1) How am I meant to know when I am 'ready' for another star port? I am on my 4th colony and my advisors are telling me to build a starport even though I just sent a construction ship to build a starbase instead. I assume I should ignore them because I only want a handful of starports throughout the game?

The way I see it, it's a question of resource clusters and distances. One space port can easily cover an entire sector, even with 50 mining stations and 20 colonies, assuming it has the construction capacity required for that task. But once we get more than a sector away from the space port, the distances begin getting a bit too long for my liking, particularly with early game tech. At that point I'll look towards getting a second space port, which means finding a good site for it.

In my opinion, a good space port system has most of the strategic resources in it, particularly fuel sources. If they're not in the system then at least they should be nearby. It's not too important that the port is floating over a great big population center, though of course the combination of a space port and a high population world provides for good and unimpeded colony ship construction.

quote:

2) Static defenses on starbases or more ships? Is it more valuable to have your typical floating colony base be dirt cheap or versatile?

Personally I like ships more than static defenses. If all your star bases are heavily fortified then you're paying maintenance for a lot of gear you're not really using. If you have ships instead, you can always repurpose them if the demand for a defense fleet changes.

That said, a few troops on exposed colonies is usually enough to fend off those single pirate frigate raids. And once my private sector gets going, my mining stations will be relatively sturdy.

quote:

2a) Why is it important that the colony be able to build any kind of base at all right away - why not just follow my colony ship with a constructor ship and have it build a proper base over the colony?

It isn't, IMO. Personally I even tend to let colonies go without bases for a while and then go through them every few years and order them to build as needed. Colonies get a happiness boost from med and rec facilities but I haven't seen any real growth impact, which means it's not really something I'm too concerned about providing ASAP.



Aquitaine -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:43:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pycco


1. i build 1 space port per 4 sectors, the one above my HW is a massive construct. the HW port has all the research labs and 30+ construction yards. for the other planets i build a smaller port mainly for refueling, repairing and eases of transporting resources to build sites.
space ports tell the ai to stock pile resources at that location, if you'r empire is does not have enough resources it can lead to shortages, ships will be build at all space ports this will cause ships to be spread out when being built.

2. what each planet needs above them is a commerce center, recreation center, medical center. the rec and med centers give bonuses to the colony, the commerce center sells good from that world with out it you are giving resources away for free.

i build defensive bases above colonized planets, a bare bones module to get the bonuses ASAP.
once that is done i upgrade it to a defensive base with more guns and defenses. they can also house construction yards.

star bases and defensive bases are similar, the ai uses them in different roles. i use star bases as forward bases for a dependable location if i have to fall back and regroup,repair.



Thank you! THat's pretty much what I was looking for. :)



Tcby -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:50:11 AM)

I agree about med/rec facilities not being essential. Given that you won't be taxing new colonies, they aren't substantially benefited from recreational / medical facilities. They will already have close to maximum growth. They are useful for other reasons though. The increased happiness further improves the migration rate to that colony from other planets.

The extra docking bays that a base provides are a good reason for me to build them asap anyway. I don't like my freighters being held up.

Edit: forget that bit about the docking bays!



Unforeseen -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:52:10 AM)

Deleted



pycco -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 3:39:47 AM)

really you wait years to build a station interesting, happiness does not help population growth other than migrants?



Tcby -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 4:21:54 AM)

Happiness does determine pop growth, but having 0% tax and access to the full complement of strategics is enough for max growth rate. Additional happiness is more useful when you want to tax more without harming growth rate. Or just tax more in general.

Prior to the change to growth rates you did get an improvement to growth rate by having those facilities. 0% wasn't enough to get max growth. Now it is, as far as I can tell.

Alternatively it could just be that
1) I use low growth races
2) Said rate is lower now
3) therefore the increase to pop growth is less than 1%, so I don't notice it anymore.

Difficulty may also have an impact on the amount of happiness you need to hit your max growth rate. That would in theory make those facilities more important at higher difficulties.

Short answer: I don't know for certain.



Bingeling -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 6:55:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby
The extra docking bays that a base provides are a good reason for me to build them asap anyway. I don't like my freighters being held up.

You haven't checked how many docking bays a colony got lately, have you? :)

It is 20, I think (since Shadows).

I doubt you will see docking queues on a colony that is not a capital with its spaceport busted. Except maybe at a former capital with no spaceport and a capital's worth of resources in store.



Tcby -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 7:02:29 AM)

Heh! I knew it had been increased in one of the shadows mega patches, but thought it was something like 10. I retract my statement [:'(]



Kizucha -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 7:06:58 AM)

My big question about the discussion "space port vs star base" are with the commerce center's because i always think the bonus from it to the trade is only given if the trade is throug the station with the commerce center? If yes i dont get what i doing wrong, every time i build a star base with c.center and all the shiny things for colony's the freighters are not trade with the star base, they go direktly to the planet and trade there.[:(]



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 8:48:33 AM)

An interesting thread but very confusing [&:]

Are these statements a fair summary of current knowledge about this:

1. The private sector AI is programmed to stock star ports with fuel but it is not programmed to stock defense bases and star bases with fuel. This is why there is a strong motivation to limit the number of star ports and distribute them strategically so that fuel is concentrated in places where you want it. Otherwise if you build star ports everywhere fuel will be diffused all around your systems leading to situations where there isn't enough of it where you need it to refuel your fleets quickly.

2. It is better to build star bases or defense bases around planets where you don't want fuel accumulated. The reasons to build them at all are: rec/med centres increase happiness so the colony can support higher tax rates (when you decide to tax it). A commence centre can be added to improve trade from the colony. Useful additional things like long range scanners can also be added.

3. Rather like ship designations (frigate, destroyer,cruiser etc) the AI uses star bases and defense bases for specific roles but if you design and deploy your own bases manually it makes no difference whether you use a star base or a defense base as an alternative to a star port for you colonies.

If these statements are accurate then the question that leaps out at me is this: exactly what effect do commerce centres have?



Tcby -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 9:04:26 AM)

Point three is correct. Point 2 is..somewhat correct. Number 1 is incorrect.

The issue is not simply fuel related. If you have a starport (or more specifically, any base with construction yards), then the private sector will make sure that there are enough resources at that port to build large amounts of ships. Basically, they send a certain amount of all strategic resources to that base so that it won't immediately stall due to resources shortages when you issue a build order.

Players avoid building starports for this reason; it is easier to manage resources when the private sector isn't trying to spread them evenly across multiple locations. Also, its a pretty big deal that you can only build Bakuras is one location.



Bigtouf -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 9:14:32 AM)

I used this post for my question :

Is it useless to put more than one commerce center in a station ?
And if we have no Trade agreement, can i've foreign trade ?


And for the thread, if i understant all purpose, it's intersting to settte star-port :
- in HW (To build fleets/ships)
- in distant sectors (To avoid very long refuel traval !)
- but not in all colony (To avoid high maintenance!)
?



Tcby -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 9:19:53 AM)

Answers inside quotation:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigtouf

I used this post for my question :

Is it useless to put more than one commerce center in a station ?
Yes, unless you are worried about it being attacked. If your commerce center is damaged it will not work. This is highly unlikely and easy to repair, though. I always use a single commerce center.
And if we have no Trade agreement, can i've foreign trade ?
Yes.Your private sector will trade anyway. Free trade agreements just give you (the state) bonus money equal to 20% of the money that your private sector is making from resource trades with that empire. Defense pacts give you 30%.


And for the thread, if i understant all purpose, it's intersting to settte star-port :
- in HW (To build fleets/ships)
- in distant sectors (To avoid very long refuel traval !)
- but not in all colony (To avoid high maintenance!)
?
Yes, that is right. But you can use gas mining stations, resupply ships, or star bases to help with refueling in distant sectors if you want.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 10:30:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tcby

Point three is correct. Point 2 is..somewhat correct. Number 1 is incorrect.

The issue is not simply fuel related. If you have a starport (or more specifically, any base with construction yards), then the private sector will make sure that there are enough resources at that port to build large amounts of ships. Basically, they send a certain amount of all strategic resources to that base so that it won't immediately stall due to resources shortages when you issue a build order.

Players avoid building starports for this reason; it is easier to manage resources when the private sector isn't trying to spread them evenly across multiple locations. Also, its a pretty big deal that you can only build Bakuras is one location.


Thanks for correcting me, but unfortunately I am still confused.

1. I cannot find a definition of exactly what a commerce centre does, Jeeves' economy guide doesn't mention them.
2. If a commerce centre simply buffs trade by x% then the real question is what defines trade on a planet and how do you determine how much it is?
3. From what you say fuel is distributed to all bases, whether starport, star base or defence platform?
4. The basic rule of thumb is if you don't want to build ships at a planet, don't build a starport?

The main issues I'm trying to figure out around this question at the moment are these:

A. I always seem to have enough resources to build ships at HW (where I have the Bakarus) but the LSP there is always running out of fuel to fill up new ships, and most other starports run out of it as well when I'm running military campaigns. I want to fix that somehow.

B. I am struggling to figure out the trigger point to build a star base/defense platform on planets, or how to design them, that I don't want to build a starport on. I get the happiness bonuses from rec/med when I want to tax the colony, but i can't understand the benefits you get from a commerce centre or how to gauge how many docks are required for a planet etc.



Bingeling -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 10:49:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55

1. I cannot find a definition of exactly what a commerce centre does, Jeeves' economy guide doesn't mention them.
2. If a commerce centre simply buffs trade by x% then the real question is what defines trade on a planet and how do you determine how much it is?
3. From what you say fuel is distributed to all bases, whether starport, star base or defence platform?
4. The basic rule of thumb is if you don't want to build ships at a planet, don't build a starport?

The main issues I'm trying to figure out around this question at the moment are these:

A. I always seem to have enough resources to build ships at HW (where I have the Bakarus) but the LSP there is always running out of fuel to fill up new ships, and most other starports run out of it as well when I'm running military campaigns. I want to fix that somehow.

B. I am struggling to figure out the trigger point to build a star base/defense platform on planets, or how to design them, that I don't want to build a starport on. I get the happiness bonuses from rec/med when I want to tax the colony, but i can't understand the benefits you get from a commerce centre or how to gauge how many docks are required for a planet etc.


3: All facilities at colonies share the colony's storage. Fuel is distributed to colonies, but probably more of it is sent to one with spaceports, and more is requested the larger the spaceport (not size, but if small, medium large).

4: Calling spaceports for starports does not make this less confusing ;-) I would build spaceports when I feel the need for another one. A need grounded in more capacity for ship building, a new location for ship building, or a location for repairs. I would resist building based on repair need from early pirate annoyances somewhat near the capital, though.

A. Make sure to build a gas mine on any fuel location remotely near to the capital. How much fuel you drain probably depends on your economy and way of playing. Slower games give more time to store fuel. Losing more ships in combat and having lots of automated ships running around drains more fuel. Deploy resupply ships in systems where you have fuel issues. And don't add new builds to active fleets if you suspect they may be built with no fuel. Have them refuel at the local resupply ship first. Is one resupply ship not enough? Deploy another one, you should be able to fit several resupply ships and a gas mine on the same gas giant.

B. I don't mess with ship designs, but you don't really need docking bays if you have no spaceport. Colonies have a lot of docking capacity, but should be a bit slower in moving cargo. If you capture a capital, give it a spaceport, for other colonies, a number like 6 should probably more than enough docking bays.

Why a spaceport at a former capital? There is probably a lot of resources stored that other, including foreign, colonies want a piece of.



Aquitaine -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 1:20:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: necaradan666

You keep saying starports instead of star bases... Way to confuse the guy haha


*brain explode*



necaradan666 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:05:33 PM)


I have never really found a good use for Star Bases. If I want a base at a colony why not get a Spaceport, or a heavily armed Defensive Base if I only want to deter pirate raids.

The Star Base subrole seems like it has no purpose beyond being there so the game can have storyline/abandoned bases. If you don't create a design yourself you're not supplied with an automated Star Base design to build, apart from whatever ones you find abandoned and are automatically set to obsolete.

If anything Star Bases could be for places you have no colony, like deep space, but will usually take millennia to get stocked with fuel so they are useless as forward refuelling stations. When coming across abandoned Star Bases I would usually scrap them to save on maintenance unless they have a scanner before I've researched them.



Aquitaine -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:10:01 PM)

My understanding is that there is no difference to a human player between 'star base' and 'defense base' - only 'star port,' which tells freighters to 'fill me up with all the things' and every other orbital base type, none of which have any special role unless you put the AI in charge of building them.



Shark7 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 2:23:26 PM)

As you have already seen there are a ton of ways to accomplish this. I'll get more to the points you've asked about:

1. The easiest way to know if you are ready for a new space port is to check the galaxy planner and re-arrange your unfulfilled resources from highest to lowest. If there are a lot of these on the list, then you are not ready at all to build a new space port. If there are only a handful of resources with small unfulfilled quantities, you are probably in good enough shape to build a new space port.

2. I'll refer to Frederick the Great: He who defends everything defends nothing. Simply put, your navy can not be every where at once. It's generally a good idea to put at least enough weapons on all bases so they can fend of light pirate raids. Ships cost a lot more than a few guns on a base.

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner. I have my policy set to build a star base (later switched to a monitoring station so I get the sensor coverage) as soon as the planet is colonized.



feelotraveller -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 5:59:17 PM)

An important thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of different ways to play Distant Worlds, and lots of different conditions you can play under. That said I don't find a reason to build starbases. If I'm going to build something it will be a spaceport.

I tend to play large irregular galaxies so I like a lot of spaceports, often (eventually) one in each colonised system. Some worlds which will never get much population might never get one. Usually only the best planet in a system gets a spaceport. If playing cluster (or other) maps less spaceports are needed in the dense areas.

Many of my spaceports are lightly armed, with sufficient shields/armour to hold out until a fleet arrives. Most systems also get a token defense force. But... if you don't have any base in the system a colony only really needs troops. [;)] On the other hand my frontline spaceports can usually take down a small fleet on their own. I prefer a stronger spaceport to adding defensive bases except where their primary purpose is the hold off troops landing. When a heavily armed spaceport is no longer on the frontlines I reduce its weapons and defenses.

The question of when to build a spaceport has many determinants. They cost maintenance and any extra tax is money not going to the private sector. What is gained by building 'this' spaceport here now? Extra trade, ship building/repair/retrofitting facilities, fuel dump, defense, etc. For me there is no simple answer and it varies from game to game and at different times during the same game.



Spidey -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 6:28:27 PM)

quote:

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner.

Do you have any data on this, Shark? Because I've never managed to observe much of a growth difefrence between colonies with and colonies without rec and med facilities.



Gregorovitch55 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/27/2014 7:59:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

quote:

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner.


Do you have any data on this, Shark? Because I've never managed to observe much of a growth difefrence between colonies with and colonies without rec and med facilities.


[&:]

OK, I'm sure now how to tell, roughly, if I should build a space port or not - it's basically to do with whether you have the necessary resources available to stock it and whether you do or do not need/want additional repair and refueling facilities in the locality.

I am also reasonably sure that having a base of some kind with rec/med facilities will enable you to tax at a higher rate because they increase happiness.

On building star base/defense platforms on planets where you do not need/want a space port before the population is maxed out (or reaches a level where you decide to levy taxes) I am still confused:

1. The med/rec facilities either do or do not promote population growth in new colonies. If it doesn't, what benefit is there in having them until you start taxing?

2. What benefit is there from having a commerce centre on a planet at all? Does it create revenue for the exchequer?. Does it promote development? Does it promote population growth? Does it promote foreign trade?




necaradan666 -> RE: Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses (6/28/2014 1:45:27 AM)

more happiness = faster growth according to Colony Taxes in Galactopedia, could be wrong though as many things in there are suspect. Per my observations though every time I have a new colony that's on the neutral face and add a base with med/rec they receive happiness go happy face and pop growth goes up a few points, so I assume that's the effect it has.



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