RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress)

RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (Full Version)

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Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 1:36:45 AM)
I'm extending the Weapons Research Build Orders so that once their Primary Weapons are complete they will research towards Death Rays. For Insert Races that includes Super Lasers so they can eventually build World Destroyers. The exceptions are races that are focused on Gravitics and Missiles/Fighter/Missile Bombers as they already require extra research.

Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 2:20:54 AM)
Screenshot from testing to confirm that with the changes in Policy Files and Research Orders that World Destroyers can be built by Insect Races other than the Shakturi ... in this case the Boskara. [image]local://upfiles/44900/A8BDC56568824DE38353AA9BA26C9C30.jpg[/image]

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/11/2014 3:05:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania quote: ORIGINAL: acantoni Other observation from a Dhayut game Weapon research -> Dhayut is beelining towards Impregnable structures and not researching any weapons at all.. they still have "Energy Torpedo WEapons" and "Enhanced Beam WEapons" , that's it: this is putting them at massive firepower disadvantage in my current game Was that a Prewarp Start? On my Prewarp Tests it's worked. On Standard Starts it doesn't ... I don't understand why yet. As mentioned earlier please focus Prewarp for the moment. acantoni, it should be okay on various starts now, not just pre-warp. I have to ensure the right basic technologies were included in the Research Orders. Let me know how it goes, looks okay from my test games so far.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/11/2014 4:32:03 AM)
Completed a test game on Extreme, Pre-Warp Start and Cheap Research ... will all races now upgraded. I ignored the race I was playing as obviously they are at a massive disadvantage to the rest of the Empires. Here were some milestone dates: After 5 Years The Quameno finish researching Titans Beams After 6 Years The Quameno finish researching Meridium Shields After 7 Years The Zenox finish researching Plasma Torpedoes The Boskara finish researching Shaktur Firestorm (III) The Teekan finish researching Assault Missiles The Quameno now have Size 800 ships available After 8 Years The Haakonish finish researching Area Graviton Pulse The Sluken finish researching Massive Rail Guns 2 Wonders are complete and another is under construction Various homeworlds now have Fortified Bunkers and Armour After 9 Years The Ugnari finish researching Advanced Phasers The Quameno now have Size 1100 ships available ...

Darkspire -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 4:45:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania I plan to but just some tinkering at this stage e.g. I put a few of the new ship templates in the Pirate templates just to check it worked. I do worry that the extra maintenance costs of the larger ship may create a handicap for the Pirates. Have you done some testing here Darkspire? More less hit the nail on the head, quote: I do worry that the extra maintenance costs of the larger ship may create a handicap for the Pirates. The pirates need there own root folder with there own faction file, like the races have a folder with the race files in, we only have about half of the tools needed in that we do have race files that they are created from but those race files primarily deal with an empire race, the Pirate factions need there own separate file, having only the policy folder works but is limited as trying to juggle a race file for both is doing no favors to either race or faction. I am fast approaching the templates and adjusting the policy files for them myself at present, estimate I should be on them in a week or so for all the races, I have to write all the data and code from scratch as the system crash / explosion at the start of the year took the theme and all my data, code and images with it, like nearly three years worth. When I wrote them before I found them very limiting compared to the Optimized ones in Legends, the Pirates especially, to get any where with them I had to look at them from a whole new angle because of costs, I came up with the idea of looking at them as resistance fighters, make do with anything that is space worthy and bolt on the best weapons as possible with the assault pods added to gain new ships, it is obviously better now with the new settings, the first thing will be to limit the factions to only a few classes and hopefully limit the size so that it relies more on numbers than larger more powerful costly ship types. Darkspire

Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 6:19:44 AM)
Wow, sorry you lost all that data Darkspire! I look forward to seeing what you have! I appreciate the very useful input. To keep costs under control I'm testing the Pirates based on the following: Escorts & Frigates copy the Empire Escort design (Size 300) Destroyers & Cruisers copy the Empire Frigate design (Size 400) Capital Ships copy the Empire Destroyer design (Size 650) Copy all Empire Private Ship & Mining Stations designs (optimised extractors and more speed which should help them) Align all other Pirate designs align with the Empire Weapon selection and a general tidy up e.g. remove items they will never realistically research

Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 1:36:23 PM)
I've just posted the biggest update yet. This version includes upgrades for all races. Refer to the updated OP for details.

Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 4:23:23 PM)
On July 20th the intent is to release this mod as an Alpha version. At that point I intend to play a game on full manual against the AI on Extreme and see how it goes compared to default. In the meantime I'm going to keep watching the AI and trying to improve what I can and consider any community feedback. The majority of ideas I had in mind are now implemented so other improvement ideas are very welcome. And if I can't do anything with your suggestion, I'm sure Elliot will appreciate having an even longer AI improvement wish list when he returns from holidays!! [;)] Here is a battle from a test game, notice the fleet firepower ... and it's far from a one-sided fight ... on normal difficulty ... [image]local://upfiles/44900/80CEEA123FFB468CA07E3276313CAF21.jpg[/image]

danymatrix -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/11/2014 5:56:14 PM)
IceMania, excelent work men! Please could you integrate your epic mod with Locarnus Balance Tech mod Ext? Locarnus since no signs of life, and really would be great to play with both active mods. Thank you!

Icemania -> RE: AI Improvement Mod (In Progress) (7/12/2014 3:06:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: danymatrix IceMania, excelent work men! Please could you integrate your epic mod with Locarnus Balance Tech mod Ext? Locarnus since no signs of life, and really would be great to play with both active mods. Thank you! I would be happy to work with Locarnus after the Vanilla AI Improvement Mod is released, but unfortunately Locarnus has clearly stated that he permits no republishing.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/12/2014 3:19:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: acantoni - I have found the death ray weapon and it seems to be far superior weapon from the long-range lasers i have right now for bigger ships/bases at least. Is there a way to force my fleet to use such superweapon if found in their automatic designs? In the current release Capital Ships and Large Spaceports now include a single Death Ray in their templates. quote: ORIGINAL: acantoni @Icemania i see there is lot of focus In Energy for Shields and Reactor and none for Hyperdrives,Engine,Thruster.. in your experience isn't a faster hyperdrive at least an asset? To supplement my earlier comment that they are included up to mid-tier but are later in the build order: 1. The Ackdarian and Sluken Special Engine Technologies and the Dhayut Special Drive Technology is included fairly early in their Research Orders. 2. Looking through the race files, the Gizurean and Wekkarus are also intended to have a speed/agility ship design focus. Prior to the Alpha release I'll reshuffle their Research Orders to align with that focus. 3. I'll also set the "TechFocus" fields to ensure that they receive focus after the Research Orders are complete (this field is fairly redundant now otherwise).

acommunistspy -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/12/2014 4:05:09 AM)
Wow amazing job Icemania! [&o] I already can't play 'vanilla' without this mod, because it makes the experience so much more exciting and difficult/realistic (as if you were playing against humans). I've played about 3 games to completion so far (from wednesday's update) on normal, hard, and very hard settings with the quameno, giz, and ikkuro. I really like how varied the weapons are and i think you have improved the balance by buffing the firestorm and rail guns. I like it best on hard so far and can't wait to try with today's update with all the races!

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/12/2014 3:03:33 PM)
Cheers acommunistspy, I hope to hear more about your games and how it goes!

Bingeling -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/12/2014 10:12:57 PM)
This looks very promising :) I ponder these from high tech: quote: � Once the Wonder focus is complete, Biological Workshops and Genetic Replication are researched to allow the Troop Cloning facility to be built, enhancing AI troop strength. � Regional Capitals (due to the income boost), Countermeasures, Target Tracking and Colonisation are researched to completion. Is cloning working well with no major hassle? I rarely play games that far, and have heard reports that it is not working properly. Is the AI able to utilize it? If it is not good or not well utilized, it could be a good idea to delay researching it to the normal AI pace. As for regional capitals, I wonder if getting them to early could be somewhat negative for the AI. It is probably not too good in deciding where to build them? In my AAR game I conquered the starting Securan empire, and they had two regional capitals. One on a 72% quality colony with 7000M population, hardly the best choice. They had a 96% 3500M colony nearby that would be a much better choice at the time of conquest, but being volcanic it could be a late arrival to the empire. If you never moved them, would you build a regional on a 72% colony? :)

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 1:31:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bingeling This looks very promising :) I ponder these from high tech: quote: � Once the Wonder focus is complete, Biological Workshops and Genetic Replication are researched to allow the Troop Cloning facility to be built, enhancing AI troop strength. � Regional Capitals (due to the income boost), Countermeasures, Target Tracking and Colonisation are researched to completion. Is cloning working well with no major hassle? I rarely play games that far, and have heard reports that it is not working properly. Is the AI able to utilize it? If it is not good or not well utilized, it could be a good idea to delay researching it to the normal AI pace. As for regional capitals, I wonder if getting them to early could be somewhat negative for the AI. It is probably not too good in deciding where to build them? In my AAR game I conquered the starting Securan empire, and they had two regional capitals. One on a 72% quality colony with 7000M population, hardly the best choice. They had a 96% 3500M colony nearby that would be a much better choice at the time of conquest, but being volcanic it could be a late arrival to the empire. If you never moved them, would you build a regional on a 72% colony? :) Thanks Bingeling. I've had the same observation watching what the AI does with Regional Capitals. In the Policy files Regional Capitals are built at a particular population, 5B. This can be changed. I can't directly control the planet quality they are built at but I can indirectly since Osito observed maximum population is proportional to the square of planet quality. So to start with I've increased the setting to 10B. This should mean they are built at the more significant worlds which have better quality also (short-term pain for long-term gain). Regional Capital research is in the last third of the build order, more than 30 technologies are higher in the order, so it's not early (the orders I've produced as quite long). Cloning Facilities work fine as far as I can see and are my preference due to the value for money they provide as the game progresses. I remember having problems as well a while back but looks good in recent games. I'll have a closer look at whether the AI uses Cloned Troops effectively in my next test game.

Miravlix -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 2:08:28 AM)
Human player controlled race is missing AI research in the research overview. (Without the Mod is shows, but reports it need an event to unlock.) Since the AI thingy is part of winning condition for humans it seems worrisome it's missing. (God knows if it shows up, since I've yet to have a game last long enough to make it. I think all non-unlock racial research shows in the list.) The size of designs seems crippling, the AI can't make Explorers for a long time. Since it need to research size 300 construction, won't that cripple it badly, since it will take forever before it scout the hyperdrive unlock? I just love pre-warp, so I start the AI on pre-warp too, but I found that I won those games without a large group of the AI's not having researched colonization, by the time I won the game. I'm hoping your research fiddling ensures they do research colonization.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 5:48:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miravlix Human player controlled race is missing AI research in the research overview. (Without the Mod is shows, but reports it need an event to unlock.) Since the AI thingy is part of winning condition for humans it seems worrisome it's missing. (God knows if it shows up, since I've yet to have a game last long enough to make it. I think all non-unlock racial research shows in the list.) This mod is an extension to the Default Distant Worlds Universe theme, not the Ancient Galaxy theme, so Machine Intelligence is not relevant. All racial technologies are given the appropriate high focus in the Research Build Orders and Ship/Base designs. quote: ORIGINAL: Miravlix I just love pre-warp, so I start the AI on pre-warp too, but I found that I won those games without a large group of the AI's not having researched colonization, by the time I won the game. I'm hoping your research fiddling ensures they do research colonization. Colonisation Research is still important with this mod for all races. It's typically about #7 in High Tech but the first Wonder target has priority. quote: ORIGINAL: Miravlix The size of designs seems crippling, the AI can't make Explorers for a long time. Since it need to research size 300 construction, won't that cripple it badly, since it will take forever before it scout the hyperdrive unlock? This is an important topic. One of the biggest problems with the AI are the pathetically small ships that are used so I am certainly pushing the envelope here. You will need Size 230 not Size 300. Thankfully the game shrinks some designs to a reasonable degree so you will have all Exploration Ships, Escorts, Frigates as well as all Private Ships available at Size 230. Noting there are always variations between games here is a Pre-Warp comparison with default and with the mod (settings Normal difficulty, Excellent Homeworld, Normal Research, No Pirates, both tests with Quameno): Default A lucky start in this test the AI starts building immediately 1. Build Large Spaceport (complete 2100.12). Research is at about 2/3rds of capacity. 2. Build Energy Research Station (complete 2101.01). Research is at about 80%. 3. Build Energy Research Station (complete 2101.03). Research is now at 100% but 2/3rds is Energy focused and it will remain that way for a long time (hence any competent human player will be far superior to the AI with Weapons and Wonders). 4. Build 2 Exploration ships (complete 2101.03). 5. Upgrade Large Spaceport (complete 2101.06). 6. Build Construction Ship (complete 2101.11). 7. Upgrade Large Spaceport (complete 2101.06). 8. Build Construction Ship (complete 2102.07). 9. Build 4 Gas Mining Ships, 4 Mining Ships, 6 Freighters and another Construction Ship (most complete 2102.06). 10. Build an Escort and 2 Destroyers (complete 2102.08). 11. Build first Mining Station (complete 2102.08). 12. Build Defensive Base (complete 2102.12). AI Improvement Mod An unlucky start in this test as sometimes it takes a month or two before the AI builds anything 1. Build Medium Spaceport (complete 2100.11). The Medium Spaceport is designed so that 100% of research potential is used when it is complete. 2. Build 1st Construction Ship (complete 2101.02). 3. Build Defensive Base (complete 2101.05). 4. Build 7 Exploration Ships (complete 2101.06). The Exploration Ships have more Engines and Fuel Cells than default. 5. Build 4 Gas Mining Ships, 4 Mining Ships, 6 Freighters (complete 2101.09). The Mining Ships have more Extractors and more Engines than default. The Freighters have more Engines and Cargo Bays than default. 6. Build 2nd Construction Ship (complete 2101.09). 7. Build first Mining Station (complete 2101.11). The Mining Stations have more Extractors than default. 8. Build 4 Escorts (complete 2101.11) and 4 Frigates (complete 2101.12). The Escorts and Frigates are larger and more powerful than default. 9. Build Troop Transport and another Exploration Ship (complete 2102.02). The result is improved performance with research, resources and also exploration. Difficulty and Homeworld Settings If you give the AI a Normal Homeworld on Normal Difficulty, it's going to struggle regardless, much more than a human player on Default or with this Mod. I recommend starts that help the AI at least a little i.e. improved Homeworld starts and/or increased difficulty. Research Settings This creates a catch-22. If you play on Expensive Research or above, as it takes some time before Size 230 is available, the AI will not build Explorers, Military or Private Ships in the meantime. On Expensive the delay is a year or two but on Very Expensive Research the delay can be many years. I could simplify the designs but this means that the benefits of extra Extractors, Engines, Weapons and Fuel Cells would be lost on the other Research settings. I would be more than happy to design a mod that works well for all circumstances but until conditional logic is available in the ship design templates this is problematic. Where I have particular hesitation in making changes is for Military Ships and Private Ships due to the magnitude of the performance difference. For Explorers I'll reduce them in size for the Alpha build. The AI doesn't know when to get rid of them anyway so they sit around even after the galaxy is explored so this change helps reduce maintenance costs. The first batch of 7-8 Explorers will also start building as soon as the Medium Spaceport is complete so it was also further reduce the time required to find the Warp Ruins. What I could do is release a second version of this mod for Expensive Research and above later which would use smaller Private Ships and Military Ships.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 7:00:26 AM)
With that change to Explorers (noting the additional Explorers per the change made in the Policy files) on a 19 Empire Map the slowest race to find the Warp Field ruins was in 2102.07. I did a similar test with the same settings on default and the slowest race found the Warp Field ruins in 2104.07. In both cases the ruins were on the far side of their home systems.

Bingeling -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 8:25:21 AM)
What happens if you put the escort design at 0% built and have it quite a bit smaller than the others? Will the AI build it until they can build something else? If you have 0% of them in fleets, will there be fleets if there are only escorts around? When it comes to making designs much larger, I can't help the feeling that I believe it is mostly "pointless inflation" in ship sizes. If you design according to default AI setups yourself, the world is already quite even. How will the larger and more expensive ships work out for the AI economy?

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 9:10:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bingeling What happens if you put the escort design at 0% built and have it quite a bit smaller than the others? Will the AI build it until they can build something else? If you have 0% of them in fleets, will there be fleets if there are only escorts around? I'll give it a try. Unfortunately that won't work with Private Ships. quote: ORIGINAL: Bingeling When it comes to making designs much larger, I can't help the feeling that I believe it is mostly "pointless inflation" in ship sizes. If you design according to default AI setups yourself, the world is already quite even. How will the larger and more expensive ships work out for the AI economy? The AI designs are so much smaller than human designs. With this approach the advantage for the human player is reduced making the game more challenging. There are more mega-fleet battles (see Post 98) as the game evolves and not so much easy AI stomping. I also don't feel the need to micro-manage every Ship or Base design, just with a bit of tinkering along the way. The same with Research, or even Exploration, I feel like I can leave it on Auto now ... rather than full Manual. In short, it's more fun. Concern about maintenance costs is why I recommend Hard difficulty or higher but I've tested plenty on Normal ... where it's tight but works, just. In some cases I've reduced the level of Military Construction (e.g. the Gizurean) as otherwise they cannot keep up. The AI won't overbuild Facilities like it used to. The AI is more likely to get Wonder bonuses. Private ships are more effective so more trade and resource movement. And so on.

Miravlix -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 5:54:39 PM)
Energy Collector Problem? LSP needs 10-15 to break even, designs has 2-3. Scouts: They all get a weapon, but since they always run away that doesn't seem like a good use of space? Even tried to make critter killer scouts, doesn't seem to work, like the forced non modify able logic of scouts just can't handle it (Changed all design settings to combat instead of evade, but scouts is hardcoded to run away, even directly ordering a scout to attack and it will still run away). a 72 space long range scanner on a scout... I don't believe the AI use the extra data that can be seen because of it, great for me as player as I don't have to edit designs to add it every game.

PsyKoSnake -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 6:44:31 PM)
Did a 30 years test. Extreme setting, Exellent HW. Maybe 3-5 race on 19 did not make a good start. (Reason seem to be 1- Bad Starting position. 2- They never found the prewarp tech. Probably a problem with Ai exploration, maybe the developper should make a rule like after 5 years=if they did not find the prewarp tech, the AI get it for free to prevent the problem) After maybe 10 years they were stuck in their home system. When I gave them the prewarp tech, they started to play normaly, with many years late vs the others.

Tanaka -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/13/2014 8:10:04 PM)
To fix the AI colonization issues I recommend including this mod as it levels the playing field and all players can colonize equally: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3647782

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 9:33:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miravlix Energy Collector Problem? LSP needs 10-15 to break even, designs has 2-3. This is a bug. I've reported it in Tech Support. If it's not fixed in patches I'll put the number needed in the design templates but I would prefer it does what is stated in the templates. quote: ORIGINAL: Miravlix Scouts: They all get a weapon, but since they always run away that doesn't seem like a good use of space? Even tried to make critter killer scouts, doesn't seem to work, like the forced non modify able logic of scouts just can't handle it (Changed all design settings to combat instead of evade, but scouts is hardcoded to run away, even directly ordering a scout to attack and it will still run away). a 72 space long range scanner on a scout... I don't believe the AI use the extra data that can be seen because of it, great for me as player as I don't have to edit designs to add it every game. This has already been changed for the Alpha release. This reflected my normal designs in-game as I put Explorers in fleets and use them for scanning ... but as you say the AI doesn't use it.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 9:39:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PsyKoSnake Did a 30 years test. Extreme setting, Exellent HW. Maybe 3-5 race on 19 did not make a good start. (Reason seem to be 1- Bad Starting position. 2- They never found the prewarp tech. Probably a problem with Ai exploration, maybe the developper should make a rule like after 5 years=if they did not find the prewarp tech, the AI get it for free to prevent the problem) After maybe 10 years they were stuck in their home system. When I gave them the prewarp tech, they started to play normaly, with many years late vs the others. Now that I've reduced the size of Explorers (Alpha Release) the AI will build them earlier than default (when Medium Spaceport completes) as well as a lot more of them (due to Policy changes) with faster designs. Given the test in Post 108 we should all see improved AI performance with finding the Warp Field Ruins. Please give this another shot when I release the Alpha and let me know how it goes.

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 9:44:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tanaka To fix the AI colonization issues I recommend including this mod as it levels the playing field and all players can colonize equally: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3647782 Interesting suggestion. How would you use in the Research Build Order? Start with the native planet type to Advanced in order to optimise Growth Rates? Then what sequence would you apply for what race?

Franky007 -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 12:31:53 PM)
If you want to use my mod go ahead. I would suggest researching the Colony tech in cost order for each race. Here is the chart i used: [image]local://upfiles/15722/A6B702B6080B40A2BEF532FF4C897006.jpg[/image]

Chestburster -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 12:55:39 PM)
After a few hours of testing i can say you did an quite impressive job here. At least now the AI is trying to win [:D] . Any chance of including the extended races in a future patch?

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 1:03:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Francoy If you want to use my mod go ahead. I would suggest researching the Colony tech in cost order for each race. Here is the chart i used: [image]local://upfiles/15722/A6B702B6080B40A2BEF532FF4C897006.jpg[/image] Champion! Thanks Francoy!

Icemania -> RE: Possible AI Improvement Mod (7/14/2014 1:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chestburster After a few hours of testing i can say you did an quite impressive job here. At least now the AI is trying to win [:D] . Any chance of including the extended races in a future patch? That's the plan after formal release but plenty of testing and improvements are needed on Vanilla first.

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