RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder

RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (Full Version)

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Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/10/2014 8:01:04 PM)
2 Jan 1942 Mostly more of the same. Nagato and Mutsu visited Port Moresby with a bombardment. Some damage and casualties, but I'll survive. I don't know if this heralds anything soon or not, If something's on the way, I'll have a surprise for him. More islands in Northern Java Sea, Mindanao, and North Borneo fall. I beat up his sub at Dutch Harbor, causing it to surface and hitting it with a Ma Duce before it got away. I think it will be lucky to make it back. That should spell relief up there for awhile. Ed-

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/11/2014 5:16:21 PM)
Forgot to mention... Moulmein fell a day or so ago. The tank regiment was just a precursor of the rest. A goodly sized stack came in and on the 2nd day, it fell. I'll build back up at Pegu. I think that's a river crossing, so he may pay a bit on entering the hex. I want the Burma Division reunited by then. I had discovered an unknown convoy near northern Sumatra carrying a bunch of UK troops bound for Singapore. I wish I had noticed them earlier. They're going to Colombo for now. I may re-task them to Madras. The convoy has ships too big for Rangoon. I'm in a quandary about putting them in India/Burma or keeping them against a move on Ceylon. Cannon's pretty much left my Burma convoys alone thus far. Burma's up to about 22,000 supply right now, and I hope to double that within a week. I've also been trying to bring Burmese fuel back to Calcutta. I'll edit this later with the combat results on Moulmein, since I'm at work. (where I do most of my cerebral WITP thinking.) I think I feel obligated to rush a daily report here, so I occasionally miss something. Ed- [EDIT] Here it is, in case anybody cares... quote: Ground combat at Moulmein (55,55) Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 19950 troops, 179 guns, 147 vehicles, Assault Value = 644 Defending force 11609 troops, 62 guns, 8 vehicles, Assault Value = 248 Japanese adjusted assault: 341 Allied adjusted defense: 145 Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0) Japanese forces CAPTURE Moulmein !!! Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-) Attacker: shock(+) Japanese ground losses: 2065 casualties reported Squads: 9 destroyed, 92 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled Allied ground losses: 5194 casualties reported Squads: 117 destroyed, 29 disabled Non Combat: 200 destroyed, 36 disabled Engineers: 36 destroyed, 0 disabled Guns lost 52 (49 destroyed, 3 disabled) Vehicles lost 8 (8 destroyed, 0 disabled) Units retreated 13 Units destroyed 1 Defeated Allied Units Retreating! Assaulting units: Imperial Guards Division 55th Cavalry Regiment 112th Infantry Regiment 14th Tank Regiment 55th Engineer Regiment 55th Mountain Gun Regiment 21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion Defending units: 6th Burma Rifles Battalion 4/8th Gurkha Battalion 4/14th Punjab Battalion 1st Burma Brigade 2nd Burma Brigade Railway BAF Battalion 4th Burma Rifles Battalion 3rd Burma Rifles Battalion 9/11th Sikh Battalion 2nd King Own YLI Battalion 27th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment 107th RAF Base Force 108th RAF Base Force 11th Burma Rifles Battalion

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/11/2014 10:01:48 PM)
04 January 1942 Kiuchuan falls in the north of China. Lots of armour involved in this and in other battles in China. A large Chinese force is also driven out of Sinyang. Digos, Salamaua and Toboali also fall. Antiship strikes are now hitting Rangoon. Nells with heavy escort. They aren't carrying torpedoes, so are bombing from 11,000 ft. One xAK takes a hit and an HDML is splattered across the harbor. I wish I could get enough support there to put the entire AVG in. Cannon's been pounding the airfields at Manila and Clark constantly. I don't know if he realizes that the USAAF bugged out long ago. It will be his mess to clean up. His SAG killed a single xAKL between Moresby and Oz. SARA and ENT are nearly in range, so I'll let him have it. Zuiho appears to have departed, as I haven't seen her for a couple days, despite blanketing the north with search planes. Indomitable's due to show within the next week or so. I have no clue what to do with her. In the past, I've had her rendezvous with the USN CVs at the east coast of Australia, but I don't think I want to strip the RN away right now. It's a good long sailing time to get her there, and aside from soaking up bombs from her betters, I don't think she'd contribute much. I suppose I could patrol the safe waters of the Indian Ocean looking for surface raiders. I still have Hermes there for extra torpedo attacks. Royal Navy carriers were not designed with power projection in mind. Ed-

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/14/2014 12:07:24 AM)
6 Jan 1942 Another quiet-ish turn (2 actually) His surface group(s) near Port Moresby skedaddled up towards Rabaul right before my carriers arrived. I don't think I've been noticed yet. my VS squadrons have spotted subs around PM -- looks like 3 or so. Hopefully, he'll assume they're being spotted by A-24s, as he knows they're in-country. Landings at Ambon. I don't think he brought enough in the first wave. I may just stir things up a bit up there (briefly) and egress. My Dutch fighters are getting worn down badly. I'll probably start withdrawing, if I can. I have enough transports at Soerbaja for one good lift out of there with LCUs, so I'll start getting that ready. I'll use multiple TFs also loading fuel, to disperse any naval air strikes. The HDMLs should also soak off a few. I can't wait until the SRA/Philippines are wrapped up. Then I can concentrate on winning the war. [:'(] I'm packing up the Aussie 2nd Infantry Division to railroad them to Cloncurry. From there they'll hoof it West and North to Darwin. I probably have time, and if he tries to take Darwin on the cheap, I'll make it painful. My assumption (not good to do) is that he'll wrap up Java first. I'll keep my USN CVs within a few days reach, so I can hit them at extreme range from the east. If one or more divisions of KB support a move there, I would guess they'd hang out to the north, giving me a little safe room. It would be a one shot deal, unless he used one division to support. I don't want to push the Oz divisions too hard until the militia squads get upgraded. Ed-

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/14/2014 10:38:16 PM)
07 January 1942 I'm pulling LEX and ENT out of the Arafura Sea at flank speed. I-4 got a shot at Enterprise, which luckily missed. Talbot landed some minor damaging near misses, but that's about it. I never really noticed how restricted that passage is with the way the reefs are laid out. The up is jigged, and Cannon knows I'm in the region. The other two carriers will rendezvous within a couple weeks or so. Sara's almost to Brisbane, and York is near Xmas Is. The pair will need a little yard time anyway. I'm obsessive with always sending ships out with zero damage. Ambon's been delivering the good news to the invasion ships landing supplies. An xAK and an xAP each received a hit. both are on fire. In terms of raw assault points, I think he's just short of a 2-1 ratio. I'll "upgrade" the leadership to make things more painful. The usual fighting and losing in China. His ground attacks have been bad today. One netted 200+ casualties. I figure all those Chinese troops are huddled together in an open field all wearing blaze orange. I'll have to decide the course of action with my CVs. A "Rings around Rabaul" mission might be tempting, but I think I'll favor a "fleet in being" for now. I think I can haul a battalion of Dutch troops out of Soerbaja. Of to PM with them. I remembered that the first Oz Corp is within the structure of Oz command. That'll be a discount PP cost to ship things over. I'm going to pack as many Bofors units into Moresby as humanly possible. They'll shred dive bombers if he goes that route. Ed-

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 12:31:45 AM)
Adm. Spruance (the forumite one) raided Rabaul in Feb 1942 and bagged a lot of ships, including BB Mutsu. It can be done ...

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 12:53:48 AM)
I'm sure it could. Keep in mind, nobody's gotten their AA upgrades yet, and I still have F2As on board. Losses may be more than I care for right now. I do see CVL(s) hanging around there within a hex or so. Maybe when I have all four together, split into two divisions. The two Mutsus are probably residing there, so there is merit to the idea. I'm surprised "Rings Around Rabaul" didn't ring a few bells. I think that was the short starter scenario in the old Avalon Hill Flat Top game. When UV came along, the old boardgame instantly became obsolete. A couple of side points. Cannonfodder has been terrific to play against. We seem to have a very similar attitude about playing the game. Our side chats while getting to know each other has been very enjoyable. Speaking of UV, I'm glad to see Wobbly and Herbieh (now under different names) are still around. I followed their UV AARs against each other religiously back in the day and was always entertained. Ed-

HansBolter -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 11:44:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mundy I'm surprised "Rings Around Rabaul" didn't ring a few bells. I think that was the short starter scenario in the old Avalon Hill Flat Top game. When UV came along, the old boardgame instantly became obsolete. Ed- Ohh the good 'ole days. Flat Top is currently stacked in a closet with all the other flat box board games like War at Sea and Victory in the Pacific.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 12:59:00 PM)
As a teenager, I never has a place I could leave it set up. That mounted map was probably the biggest in all my games. Not enough rooms in the house with a table, plus kitty issues. I think the game itself was alright, with the rules being fairly common-sense. Relying on the mapsheet slowed things down. Mine's packed in a plastic bin in the basement... Ed-

HansBolter -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 1:29:11 PM)
I conquered the kitty issue and being able to leave games set up. I designed a wargame storage cabinet with removable shelves that slid in and out on side ledger boards. The shelves were 2'x3' and you could use multiple shelves for game boards or maps larger than that. On game night pull em out and deploy em on the table. When the nights over they go back into the cabinet. It worked for all but mega-games line The Longest Day and the Europa series. Those had a huge plywood table on sawhorses in a dedicated spare bedroom where cats were verboten.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 8:31:50 PM)
8 January 1943 My carriers in the Darwin area slipped out unseen to the East. Hopefully he'll think they're still in the region. Unless I have to run a Glen gauntlet near Brisbane. A cruiser bombardment visited Pegu, roughing things up a bit. Over 800 casualties. Dutch sub O16 got a shot at Hosho near Japan proper. Of course, having the good torpedoes, they miss. If she's heading south, there'll be a gauntlet to run. O16 is northernmost near the coast. Nells decide to hit Rangoon's airfield. Nothing's there right now. Likewise, they're hitting shipping at Soerbaja. Fortunately, I have decoy shipping there, so the troops I was loading should get out. Ed- [image]local://upfiles/6942/E6146157C8A5482799659402C412AF06.jpg[/image]

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/15/2014 11:11:05 PM)
9 January 1942 Odd stuff this turn. The evening starts off with this: quote: Naval Gun Fire at Bataan - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 34 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Japanese Ships DD Hatakaze, Shell hits 5, Mine hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Harukaze, Shell hits 4, Mine hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage TB Kamo, Shell hits 5, Mine hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage TB Kiji, Shell hits 4, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage Manila Bay Defenses firing at DD Hatakaze DD Hatakaze firing at Manila Bay Defenses DD Harukaze firing at Manila Bay Defenses Manila Bay Defenses firing at DD Harukaze Manila Bay Defenses firing at TB Kamo TB Kamo firing at Manila Bay Defenses Manila Bay Defenses firing at TB Kiji -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 202 encounters mine field at Bataan (78,77) Japanese Ships DD Harukaze, Mine hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage TB Kamo, Mine hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage TB Kiji, Mine hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Hatakaze, Mine hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage I don't know if they got away from him or what. The Corregidor gunners have very sharp eyes. Ft Drum probably contributed. In addition to clearing the minefield out the hard way, they were soaking 12" hits regularly. I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. On the other side of the coin, Cannon caught a large xAK(L) convoy roughly 8 - 10 hexes SSE of Soerbaja with a cruiser force. Not good. Probably 20 ships or so escorted by a lonely CM. I had pretty much written them off at the start, but by now, I figured they were out. my xAPs with most of the 1st KNIL Rgt aren't too far from there, but may get out. Enterprise just got missed by a sub again, This time just off the southern New Guinea coast a few hexes east of Port Moresby. He know they're out now. Last turn, he was unloading troops at Salamaua, and I thought I'd try and catch them. Off to Brisbane at top speed. I'll probably have to divert to Sydney, as most of the ships have sys > 10 and engine damage in the 5-6 range. I've pushed them a bit hard, and they'll probably need a couple weeks of yard time. Convoys to PM should be fun with at least 3 subs lurking there. His Nells harassing Rangoon have found their torpedoes and smacked a convoy a couple hexes away. The supply runs will probably slow down until I can get more fighters in-theatre. Tigers are probably understrength about 20%. I attacked an IJN sub a hex off San Fran. I have 3 overlapping ASW TFs with YPs and PGs. One of the latter got some shots off. I'm eager awaiting my PC-461s to arrive. Other than that, he's busy cleaning up all the various scattered island bases in DEI and PI.

Capt. Harlock -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 3:16:10 AM)
quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit.

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 11:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way!

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 2:27:46 PM)
Cannonfodder never expected this encounter. He speculates they reacted to some real or imaginary sighting. 10 January 1942 On an otherwise, quiet turn, except for the usual bombing of Clark, Manila, Batavia and the Chinese, Pegu falls on the first turn. There were only a few more battalions in Rangoon, so Rangoon is hosed. The only question now, is do I make him fight for it, or do I try to get a head start on pulling them to Mandalay? Either way, I want to get Akyab developed. I won't gut Chittagong to do it, though. I may send Hermes and CAs to Calcutta. In the past, Chittagong has been a bombardment magnet for me. In my last PBEM, my opponent made zero moves towards Burma, and I think that experience has tainted my thinking a bit. In other news, I got this in the mail, finally. It got delayed, since the store staff was all at the IPMS nats. I've always been infatuated with this ship. I was tempted to spend the dough for the Hasegawa Akagi. This will be my first Japanese ship. What's nice is no boot topping to paint. I think a good guess for color is Kure gray. I do have paints for two other yards. Ed- [image]local://upfiles/6942/CABE0B89213945B0B4072A0F5AC92E81.jpg[/image]

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 4:21:52 PM)
I have the Chikuma model - got it back in the 1970s or 1980s - one of my first Japanese ships in 1/700 scale. The box art was one of the things that attracted me to this ship model. It also received a great review in Scale Modeller mag. Tamiya sells the little cans of paint that have the correct colours for the ship, per the instructions colour scheme.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 4:34:06 PM)
This is Tamiya's 1/350, ship, which only came out a few years ago. I did buy aftermarket weapons for it (knee-jerk habit), but I may wind up using the 25mm guns in the kit. They look that good. I'll use brass barrels for the 8 inchers. I'm not sure about the 5" AAs yet. I have Veteran's outstanding ones, so I'll have to compare. I also got Eduard's complete photoetch, so I'm pretty set. Testor's Model Master lines has been coming out with naval colors again. They have three different IJN grays, depending on shipyard. I did get Tamiya's linoleum in the spray can. I'm not sure how I'm going to mask the gray strips around the linoleum yet. I'll go to White Ensign, if I need a good match that isn't available otherwise, but MM paints will do. I needed something between my usual DD/DEs and the carriers waiting in line. The Academy Indianapolis as well as Trumpeter's 1/350 San Francisco are also on the short list to get. Veteran makes a beautiful 5"/25 mount, but they're always sold out. A Houston would be great, since I want to paint it in its Cavite Blue scheme.

witpqs -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/16/2014 5:38:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way! That really surprises me - has a developer confirmed that? Some mines have less "effect" than others, and the variability built into the game is a lot more likely explanation that there being a way of treating damage from mines different from the way all other damage is treated.

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/17/2014 12:03:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way! That really surprises me - has a developer confirmed that? Some mines have less "effect" than others, and the variability built into the game is a lot more likely explanation that there being a way of treating damage from mines different from the way all other damage is treated. Right. Just as torpedo damage from a sub attack - even 4 hits on a DD - does not cause immediate sinking during that combat event, mine and shore battery fire racks up the damage but does not cause sinking until later in the round. Can't remember if it is after each naval movement phase or after both naval phases are over. If an air attack or naval battle occurs involving the mine-struck ship before the end of phase, it will usually sink before it actually gets any further hits since these combats have periodic checks to see if anything should sink. Re: mine effectiveness - it is obviously set low since an IJN I-boat can take three mark 6 mines and not sink. Four or more will finally get the job done. PS - since I was sandboxing to see what would happen, I ordered the IJN ships into Singapore and Bataan hexes at game start with settings of Remain on Station and Absolute tolerance. This is using stock Scenario 1 and the last official patch. I am not sure if Michael's Beta patch addressed any of this.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/17/2014 12:56:06 AM)
I'll be quiet the next few days. The wife and I are taking a three day trip to Superior WI where we met for our anniversary. Cannonfodder's hanging out with his friends over the weekend, so we'll be on hold for a few days. Ed

witpqs -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/17/2014 12:58:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way! That really surprises me - has a developer confirmed that? Some mines have less "effect" than others, and the variability built into the game is a lot more likely explanation that there being a way of treating damage from mines different from the way all other damage is treated. Right. Just as torpedo damage from a sub attack - even 4 hits on a DD - does not cause immediate sinking during that combat event, mine and shore battery fire racks up the damage but does not cause sinking until later in the round. Can't remember if it is after each naval movement phase or after both naval phases are over. If an air attack or naval battle occurs involving the mine-struck ship before the end of phase, it will usually sink before it actually gets any further hits since these combats have periodic checks to see if anything should sink. Re: mine effectiveness - it is obviously set low since an IJN I-boat can take three mark 6 mines and not sink. Four or more will finally get the job done. PS - since I was sandboxing to see what would happen, I ordered the IJN ships into Singapore and Bataan hexes at game start with settings of Remain on Station and Absolute tolerance. This is using stock Scenario 1 and the last official patch. I am not sure if Michael's Beta patch addressed any of this. It sounds like you are describing the damage model including the flooding and fires that rage in the hours following. Your post made it sound like mine damage was all held off the side, so to speak, and then applied at the end of the turn.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/20/2014 11:25:26 PM)
Back on track. Just return from the 5 hour drive from Superior WI to Neenah WI. Took plenty of pics of lake freighters. 11 January 1942 Not a lot this turn. He snuck the 1st SNLF around the back to Prome and took it. Hopefully I can get my guys through to Mandalay. I-21 and I-27 have been lurking a hex off San Francisco. 21 ate a real depth charge hit and two near miss "hits". I have 4 ASW groups prowling that area pretty heavily, plus Kingfishers from the det squadrons flying ASW. Hopefully he'll find it too hot to stay there. Other than that, he has tanks overrunning north China, and a landing north of Palembang. My big group of transports I stoled from Australia arrived in SF. Some of the Pacific Troop Class xAKs are convertible to xAPs, so I'm doing it. xAKs are a dime a dozen, but I need to ship bodies right now. Once everyone gets ship-shape from the trip and I deal with our SS friends off the coast, I'll get more troops across. The 49th PG is getting assembled there from the East Coast, so I'll be including them once they all arrive. Queen Elizabeth was bring engineers to Suva and should be returning soon. Ed-

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/20/2014 11:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way! That really surprises me - has a developer confirmed that? Some mines have less "effect" than others, and the variability built into the game is a lot more likely explanation that there being a way of treating damage from mines different from the way all other damage is treated. Right. Just as torpedo damage from a sub attack - even 4 hits on a DD - does not cause immediate sinking during that combat event, mine and shore battery fire racks up the damage but does not cause sinking until later in the round. Can't remember if it is after each naval movement phase or after both naval phases are over. If an air attack or naval battle occurs involving the mine-struck ship before the end of phase, it will usually sink before it actually gets any further hits since these combats have periodic checks to see if anything should sink. Re: mine effectiveness - it is obviously set low since an IJN I-boat can take three mark 6 mines and not sink. Four or more will finally get the job done. PS - since I was sandboxing to see what would happen, I ordered the IJN ships into Singapore and Bataan hexes at game start with settings of Remain on Station and Absolute tolerance. This is using stock Scenario 1 and the last official patch. I am not sure if Michael's Beta patch addressed any of this. It sounds like you are describing the damage model including the flooding and fires that rage in the hours following. Your post made it sound like mine damage was all held off the side, so to speak, and then applied at the end of the turn. Just noticed your post witpqs. I AM saying that the damage is held off to the side - since there is no way a small ship or sub could hit nine mines before sinking. That is the annoying part - the "sweeping" of the mines by a doomed ship. I played an old save that included an AMc sailing into Bataan hex [stock map, no Subic Bay] where it hit two mines and took seven hits from the naval fort. It then proceeded to sweep (the normal way) three mines. When the night phase AND the morning air phase finished, theAI did the "Ship Repair" routine and decided the AMc should sink. Pretty hokey. If torpedo damage can be applied immediately after a sub attack, why not mines?

witpqs -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 6:35:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock quote: I'm surprised they weren't getting sunk outright. Same here. Torpedo boats especially should not be good for more than one mine hit. Damage from mine hits is not applied until the end of the turn. I have had IJ ships and subs hit as many as nine mines without sinking immediately. This is really annoying when they are more effective than minesweepers doing it the official way! That really surprises me - has a developer confirmed that? Some mines have less "effect" than others, and the variability built into the game is a lot more likely explanation that there being a way of treating damage from mines different from the way all other damage is treated. Right. Just as torpedo damage from a sub attack - even 4 hits on a DD - does not cause immediate sinking during that combat event, mine and shore battery fire racks up the damage but does not cause sinking until later in the round. Can't remember if it is after each naval movement phase or after both naval phases are over. If an air attack or naval battle occurs involving the mine-struck ship before the end of phase, it will usually sink before it actually gets any further hits since these combats have periodic checks to see if anything should sink. Re: mine effectiveness - it is obviously set low since an IJN I-boat can take three mark 6 mines and not sink. Four or more will finally get the job done. PS - since I was sandboxing to see what would happen, I ordered the IJN ships into Singapore and Bataan hexes at game start with settings of Remain on Station and Absolute tolerance. This is using stock Scenario 1 and the last official patch. I am not sure if Michael's Beta patch addressed any of this. It sounds like you are describing the damage model including the flooding and fires that rage in the hours following. Your post made it sound like mine damage was all held off the side, so to speak, and then applied at the end of the turn. Just noticed your post witpqs. I AM saying that the damage is held off to the side - since there is no way a small ship or sub could hit nine mines before sinking. That is the annoying part - the "sweeping" of the mines by a doomed ship. I played an old save that included an AMc sailing into Bataan hex [stock map, no Subic Bay] where it hit two mines and took seven hits from the naval fort. It then proceeded to sweep (the normal way) three mines. When the night phase AND the morning air phase finished, theAI did the "Ship Repair" routine and decided the AMc should sink. Pretty hokey. If torpedo damage can be applied immediately after a sub attack, why not mines? Have you queried Michael on this? Just curious.

HansBolter -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 11:08:33 AM)
My position on this is because it is a turn based phased based games certain unrealities are a given. Have you ever stopped to consider that having the Japanese go first throughout the entire game really results in them technically having the tactical initiative for the entire game? Sure the operation initiative sways back and forth constantly and the strategic initiative definitely switches to the Allies in good time, but the Japanese forever retain the tactical initiative. This is a consequence of a turn base, phased (impulse) based game

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 1:54:04 PM)
No witpqs - I have not queried Michael. Never got a response on a previous War Room query so I figure he is busy enough with more important things. Since I have basically forced the mine victims to stay in the hex with the Absolute setting, the situation is somewhat artificial. However the fact that others have had several mines hit by small ships and subs shows that it sometimes crops up in real games. I find it odd that no one seems to have complained about this previously. Guess my complaint trigger is set too low! [:D] HansB - Not sure I understand your argument. When forces meet the AI determines tactical initiative for each side so I do not understand your statement that the Japanese have the initiative throughout the game. Even if true, it does not mean that unrealistic game features should not be improved during updates or mods. I accept limitations that would take too much programming time to change, but it seems to me that the program routine that checks torpedo damage immediately after combat could be "cut and pasted" into mine hit incidents.

Mundy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 7:15:22 PM)
12 Jan 1942 Another quiet turn. I got into some trouble with my air task force with ENT and SARA. All my flank speed bursts to get away from the subs caught up with me, and they ran out of fuel about 5 hexes NE of Brisbane. I should have sent them to Townsville. I have some xAKs about to meet them next turn, but I'm looking at at least a few weeks in the yard. Dumb careless move on my part. I can honestly say I've never done this to carriers before. I-21 may have died off of San Fran. It's on the kill list and a Kingfisher claimed a hit this turn. I tend to not believe search plane hits. I've had completely unarmed planes claim hits before. I'm up to 6 ASW TFs prowling those hexes. Mostly YPs but I do have two serious DD task forces there. In China, he's besieging Ansi, which is messing with my short ranged fighter transfers from there to the south. Everyone in Rangoon is enroute to Prome. Mandalay's the final destination. I'm trying to get stuff down to the India side of the border up there. RAF presence is weak right now. An RN CV is due next turn (Indomitable?) BBs will start trickling in over the next month. I have at least 4 USN battleships coming in over the next month also. Colorado's due to be out of the yard in Seattle in 10 days or so. 3 more BBs are due to reach LA in the next two days. I would love to send them en masse to Suva, but their AA is far too weak right now. I don't think Suva could support the fuel requirements either. The USMC are about to land there with troops and planes. Once secured, I'll migrate towards Noumea. I'm short of engineers and base troops. By July, I'll be up to my ears in them. Ed-

Capt. Harlock -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 7:38:14 PM)
quote: Even if true, it does not mean that unrealistic game features should not be improved during updates or mods. I accept limitations that would take too much programming time to change, but it seems to me that the program routine that checks torpedo damage immediately after combat could be "cut and pasted" into mine hit incidents. +1 Just because you can't make it perfect doesn't mean you shouldn't make it the best possible.

HansBolter -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 7:44:26 PM)
During the turn resolution the Japanese side always goes first. During the night and both day air impulses during the turn resolution the Japanese side always bombs the Allied side before the Allied side bombs the Japanese side. During the land combat resolution phase the Japanese side always attacks the Allied side before the Allied side attacks the Japanese side. There is no way the Allies can forestall a Japanese land attack by attacking before the Japanese do. Typical example: the Chinese have to survive the Japanese shock attacks and not be forced to retreat out of the hex to even be able to execute their attack for the turn. That's what I mean by having the tactical initiative.

BBfanboy -> RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder (8/21/2014 8:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter During the turn resolution the Japanese side always goes first. During the night and both day air impulses during the turn resolution the Japanese side always bombs the Allied side before the Allied side bombs the Japanese side. During the land combat resolution phase the Japanese side always attacks the Allied side before the Allied side attacks the Japanese side. There is no way the Allies can forestall a Japanese land attack by attacking before the Japanese do. Typical example: the Chinese have to survive the Japanese shock attacks and not be forced to retreat out of the hex to even be able to execute their attack for the turn. That's what I mean by having the tactical initiative. Ok- thanks for clarifying that part. Not sure what it has to do with applying damage to mine hits though. That should not be dependant on the end of both naval movement phases or the morning air phase.

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