How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (Full Version)

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cbelva -> How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 12:44:15 AM)

Not hard at all. The hardest problem would be the data files. However, on the cheat you can use the British data files and the Soviet data files. It took me a total of eight hours to make this scenario. I had no map tiles or unit icons when I started. I build them all from scratch. I had the scenario running after eight hours of work. I copied the British data files and the Soviet data files into separate folders named "Israeli" and "Syrians" and then renamed the data files to match the countries they were representing.


[image]local://upfiles/15885/D22CFD7CFB6A4AA7991D817E35FBDED7.jpg[/image]



MikeAP -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 1:35:06 AM)

I started one. It was based off of a school house scenario I once worked through.

I also built a modern US and OPFOR MTOE to play.

[image]http://www.withresistance.com/FCRS/A2.png[/image]



cbelva -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 1:39:20 AM)

That map looks outstanding.



MikeAP -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 1:50:21 AM)

Thank you.

I may design one of the modern National Training Center, and it's several cities.

It's just a very large project



Richie61 -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 3:17:42 AM)

YES! This is were FPC should go next!



Hexagon -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 9:33:07 AM)

I take 2 of these [&o]

Maybe the counters are to colored for my taste (i like them but is hard see some info maybe diferent colours by nation to adapt them to the diferent nations???)... maybe you can guys work in future series in alternative art for counters... one simple with a single colour and other based in national colours and maybe increase a little counter size (10% or similar).

I think to on this title as next title in serie... but maybe they think more in have historical serie and what if serie... but i dont know becuase next title could be stand alone when i see it a lot better as add-on.

Lets see but i have hope to see middle east on this engine [;)]




CapnDarwin -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 11:57:43 AM)

I believe one thing Charles is pointing out, is how flexible the game system is. It is as much a construction kit as it is a game. [;)]



DoubleDeuce -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 12:57:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

I believe one thing Charles is pointing out, is how flexible the game system is. It is as much a construction kit as it is a game. [;)]

Exactly. If the date range was extended in the Editor all that is needed after that really is more custom maps and revised and edited national USER excel files with the data for the period you want to cover.



cbelva -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 1:02:55 PM)

One thing that I am somewhat surprise since the release of the game is how few new (player created) scenarios that there are. I don't know why unless it is the fact that the game does not have an internal map editor. That is something we want to add eventually to this system. However, the strength in this system is that you can use just about any thing to make a map. You can draw a map using a paint program or scan a map and use it. You could even hand draw a map, scan it, and then you it. I have taken maps from VASSAL of one of my favorite board games of this scale and used it to recreate several scenario from that game into this system. Worked really well. However, this game shipped with over 20 maps that scenario designers to use to create interesting scenarios. The fact is, you don't have to use Hexdraw to make a map. And you can make them look anyway you want them too (see MikeAP's map above). They only thing that would limit the use of a map is that the rivers have to follow the hex lines. I am not artistically talented, yet I can do this. It is really not that hard.

I based the above scenario on an old war game of Middle Eastern combat. The scale was close but not exact so I adjusted. As I stated above, I created the tiles and overlays for the map from scratch, made the map, made the icons for the Syrians and Israeli nationalities, and made minor adjustments to the British and Soviet's data files before making the scenario. I have noticed that this scenario plays out fairly similar to the board game as far as strategy and results. As stated above, total time was only 8 hours from start to finish. It would have taken longer if I had taken to the time to create actual Israeli and Syrian data bases. That will take time and a bit of elbow grease, but if someone wanted to do a Middle Eastern mod, not impossible. In other works, you don't have to wait on us. There will be some things that would not live up like dates listed for the scenario and weather. Dates only go back to 1979 and weather is gear to Europe. But mostly that would be cosmetic as far as game play.

I am interested in seeing enterprising and aspiring scenario designers creating new scenarios and campaigns. You can create your own maps or use what is in the game. Creating a scenario is quite easy.

PS to Mike AP--I would like to see a map of the NTC. I fought across that patch of land several times.



DoubleDeuce -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 2:44:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

I copied the British data files and the Soviet data files into separate folders named "Israeli" and "Syrians" and then renamed the data files to match the countries they were representing.

Does this allow those separate folders to show up in the editor? I was under the impression it would not and the only option was to edit the existing USER files?.



Panta_slith -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 2:47:33 PM)

After I started playing the game, I created a couple of H2H scenarios,but didn't notice much interest from other players whatsoever. Maybe it was due that they were for two people and most players play solo, maybe not, in any case, not much encouraging. On the other hand, the three scenarios I uploaded at the Steel Panthers website were downloaded hundred of times, though during a longer period. They were also scenarios for H2H play, but also SP's AI is far easier to program, with random events, multiple editable way points and so forth.



CapnDarwin -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 3:20:16 PM)

DD, new folders and new spreadsheets in any folder will show up as well. Just make sure that the name of the folder and names of spreadsheets in a folder are unique. Also make sure the name in the nation tab is the same as the spreadsheet so it is unique. The best start for doing data is to copy and rename one of the user data files.



Mad Russian -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 4:47:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

I take 2 of these [&o]

Maybe the counters are to colored for my taste (i like them but is hard see some info maybe diferent colours by nation to adapt them to the diferent nations???)... maybe you can guys work in future series in alternative art for counters... one simple with a single colour and other based in national colours and maybe increase a little counter size (10% or similar).

I think to on this title as next title in serie... but maybe they think more in have historical serie and what if serie... but i dont know becuase next title could be stand alone when i see it a lot better as add-on.

Lets see but i have hope to see middle east on this engine [;)]




We made the game as moddable as it is so you guys wouldn't have to sit around waiting for us to do everything. Like different counter art sets. So, that we could create more features for the game engine itself.

Hopefully, that plan will work for you guys. Because we have our hands full with working on options, theaters etc. for the series.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mad Russian -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 4:50:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

... but also SP's AI is far easier to program, with random events, multiple editable way points and so forth.


Since FPC's AI isn't really programmed I would think that's true. However, the AI in FPC will react differently every single time you play it. How many other games do you know that you can say that for?

Good Hunting.

MR



Panta_slith -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 7:09:25 PM)

Not many, actually, I am not sure about Panthers games though. Yet I wonder if that very same umpredictability is always good or not. So far FPC routines seem to work fairly well. Let´s see how they work with the upcoming patch.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

... but also SP's AI is far easier to program, with random events, multiple editable way points and so forth.


Since FPC's AI isn't really programmed I would think that's true. However, the AI in FPC will react differently every single time you play it. How many other games do you know that you can say that for?

Good Hunting.

MR





Mad Russian -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/29/2014 9:04:28 PM)

So, what are you saying? That you prefer games with the AI programmed to react a certain way every time? Or the way the FPC AI works? I'm not sure what your point is here.

Good Hunting.

MR



WABAC -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 1:45:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

DD, new folders and new spreadsheets in any folder will show up as well. Just make sure that the name of the folder and names of spreadsheets in a folder are unique. Also make sure the name in the nation tab is the same as the spreadsheet so it is unique. The best start for doing data is to copy and rename one of the user data files.


I have had no problems creating my early 60's TOE's. The bigger issues have been available time, and my typing skills throwing things off the track from time to time.

On what I have learned I am hoping my next TOE's will go more quickly. You guys ought to be on version 3.0 Gold The Awesome Edition by then. [:D]



kipanderson -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 6:13:33 AM)

Hi,

Just had time for quick speed read before rushing off to work...

Yes, a Yum Kippur War scenario/scenarios is surely a must have with this engine :).

Map editor would be great.

Data files are very easy to use. All the files , editing is.

Cbelva, hi, is your very fine Israelis v Syrians scenario available for us to play around with?

FCRS is a very high quality product, very. Was a surprise to me when it come from nowhere.. Congratulations to all.

All the best,
Kip.






Panta_slith -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 3:36:44 PM)

I guess that the AI behaviour can be set at two different levels. First, how a computer-controlled unit reacts in face of imminent danger, at a tactical level (what they do, do they attack, retire, hold, etc.) For simulators like Steel Beasts is what they do when they see you and is variable.
On the other hand you have the course of action, etc. Do they pop up here or there (or at all)? Do they go along this path or another one, at what time, etc. That gives you some unpredictability since you can't know, among certain limits, what are you expecting.
It isn't the case of harpoon, for instance, where all those things are fixed, thus if you make a scenario you will always know what to expect.
For instance, in FPG I have noticed that the AI goes for the objective flags in a more or less direct way. SB has a different approach, with "events", a series of selectable boolean variables that let the AI to act differently every time in response to the present situation.

You can see better explained what I have tried to say in SBP's scenario design page:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Scenario_Design

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So, what are you saying? That you prefer games with the AI programmed to react a certain way every time? Or the way the FPC AI works? I'm not sure what your point is here.

Good Hunting.

MR




Tazak -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 7:05:13 PM)

Another area that can be modelled is the Iran-Iraq war which from a scenario design perspective I find interesting for a number of reasons:

1. Its a lesser known conflict than others however at 8 years its certainly one of the longest conflict in modern times

2. There were a number of tank vs. tank engagements that rank in the top 10 biggest tank battles, generally the Iranians were better local commanders but lacked the resources for a major offensive vs. Iraqis who had very little local initiative to the point of not even responding to a breakthrough nearby leading to their positions being flanked or attacked from the rear

3. a wide range of Western and Soviet equipment used on both sides, Iran was forced to used captured tanks/APCs to supplement its armoured forces due to sanctions add some Cobra attack helicopters, M48 and Chieftain tanks and you get the general idea as to the state of their forces, Iraq on the other hand fielded mainly Soviet tanks including in later years T72 tanks supported by Mi25 (export version of the Mi24) and French antitank helos with arty coming from M109 pieces.

4. The AI is well suited to human wave attacks of infantry (ramp up national morale while lowering local initiative and risk profile and they wont stop until their all dead!!!)

5. Because there is little know around the detailed ORBAT and TOE of either side it presents a fairly big scope that can be utilised to the fullest in creating some epic battles



DoubleDeuce -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 7:31:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Another area that can be modelled is the Iran-Iraq war which from a scenario design perspective I find interesting for a number of reasons:

All we would need is some maps. [8D]



Hexagon -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 7:34:26 PM)

Is other interest war but info is a lot less... of course they can create what ifs, but in 73 you can smash an Irak armored brigade [:D] and well, a middle east title is better to sell than a conflict like Iran-Irak war... if you dont add in the game 1st gulf war [8D]

After the south Europe title i expect see a middle east title is a good change in the serie, from what if to historical, from Europe forests to middle east deserts and with a lot of new nations (Israel, Egypt, Siria, Jordan and a lot of minors as expeditionary forces and well if you see Volcanoman mods for Tiller Middle east title you can add USA and Soviets in what ifs sending airborne units, armored formations...).




cbelva -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 8:14:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kipanderson


Cbelva, hi, is your very fine Israelis v Syrians scenario available for us to play around with?

Kip.





Not yet. It is not quite ready for prime time. Remember, this is not historical in any way. It was something I threw together quickly to demonstrate the flexibility of this system. However, I will release it eventually (sooner than later) so people can have some fun with it and pick it apart for all that is wrong with it [:-]



jack54 -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/30/2014 10:35:24 PM)

I think I would try to create some scenarios but I need to be able to save partly through the process. Usually I get a message saying I must complete something else before I can save. Then after I complete that I need to complete something else

Maybe I'm missing something.



cbelva -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/31/2014 12:50:16 AM)

In order to save a scenario in the editor, you need to place units for both sides, make sure all the units are place in the appropriate setup zone, place victory location(s) on the map, write something in the "Scenario Description (if I do not have my text yet I just write a single word like "test"), fill in the mission briefing for both players (if I don't have a specific briefing I will press the button at the top that will create an auto briefing). That should allow you to save the scenario. If you get the message, don't feel bad. I normally get them even knowing all the things that must be completed.



Mad Russian -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/31/2014 2:38:03 AM)

Put one unit from each side and a single objective on the map and you can save it. The units must be in setup zones. So one hex setup zones for each side is also required. This is how I work on them in multiple sessions. I just create a blank scenario basically. Put a unit for each side in and an objective. I save that and then I work on what I need to do over several sessions.

Good Hunting.

MR



CapnDarwin -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/31/2014 12:36:59 PM)

Reposted from another thread:
There has to be a minimum amount of info to save the scenario. To save you need:
1. Choose Player 1 nation, Player 2 nation and map.
2. Add 1 setup hex for both sides.
3. Add one VP marker.
4. Add some text for the scenario description.
5. Add one unit per side in setup hexes.

From there you can save. I would suggest making a Template file with those things in it and load that to start with. From there you can change things out. If you change the map you will need to add back in the setup hexes and a VP marker. If you change nations, you will need to add one unit into a setup hex from the new country.

That should save you some time.

Enjoy. [8D]



IronMikeGolf -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (7/31/2014 2:00:56 PM)

Here's an engine model question for the devs:

My understanding from profession reading I did in the 90's was that during the Irag-Iran war, most successful engagements with tank main guns occurred at ballistic battle sight range or less (i.e. <1500 m). I have not read about Israeli vs Egyptian or Syrian gunnery skills. As a gunnery trainer for Royal Saudi Land Forces, I found it was a labor of Hercules to train Bradley gunners to hit movers at >1000 m and anything beyond 1200 m with the gun.

Does the training level affect Pk as a function of range?

This also gets me thinking about further NATO/Pact scenario possibilities. Like, instead of opening day(s) of the war, we have a battered REFORGER unit facing a Soviet Cat B or C formation, which would have older equipment and lower training level.



strykerpsg -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (8/1/2014 11:22:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

Not hard at all. The hardest problem would be the data files. However, on the cheat you can use the British data files and the Soviet data files. It took me a total of eight hours to make this scenario. I had no map tiles or unit icons when I started. I build them all from scratch. I had the scenario running after eight hours of work. I copied the British data files and the Soviet data files into separate folders named "Israeli" and "Syrians" and then renamed the data files to match the countries they were representing.


[image]local://upfiles/15885/D22CFD7CFB6A4AA7991D817E35FBDED7.jpg[/image]

Wow, just wow! I had a flashback from the 80's and my Avalon Hill "Arab-Israeli Wars". Please, oh please make and release a similar one. I also like the NTC scenario's, having spent a rotation or two there. Thanks for the idea and the flashback. Heck, it's what made me interested in Micro-armor and once the Commodore Amiga rolled out, I left board games all together.



Mad Russian -> RE: How hard would it be to make a Middle East Mod? (8/1/2014 7:00:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

Here's an engine model question for the devs:

My understanding from profession reading I did in the 90's was that during the Irag-Iran war, most successful engagements with tank main guns occurred at ballistic battle sight range or less (i.e. <1500 m). I have not read about Israeli vs Egyptian or Syrian gunnery skills. As a gunnery trainer for Royal Saudi Land Forces, I found it was a labor of Hercules to train Bradley gunners to hit movers at >1000 m and anything beyond 1200 m with the gun.

Does the training level affect Pk as a function of range?

This also gets me thinking about further NATO/Pact scenario possibilities. Like, instead of opening day(s) of the war, we have a battered REFORGER unit facing a Soviet Cat B or C formation, which would have older equipment and lower training level.


It's my understanding that the M242 has an effective range of 3000 meters. Of course, it doesn't matter what the weapon is capable of, only what the gunner is capable of.

In another Bradley related issue, how long would it take to reload the TOW launchers once they were fired?

Good Hunting.

MR



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