Are racial special techs worthwhile? (Full Version)

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Skunkpuppy -> Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/9/2014 12:43:24 PM)

I noticed that racial special techs like the shaktur firestorm are, at the end of their last level, less impressive than their normal counterparts. Should I still research them?



Icemania -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/9/2014 1:28:23 PM)

They are, after some Weapons Balancing which was applied in the AI Improvement Mod



Aeson -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/9/2014 3:28:41 PM)

Despite Icemania's claim that they require his or her balance mod to be worthwhile, the species-specific technologies are generally worth having in the unmodded game. The Shaktur FireStorm is the only bombardment weapon that is worth anything in space combat (or alternatively, the only worthwhile space combat weapon capable of planetary bombardment), Pulse Wave Cannons are generally better than Shatterforce Lasers and strictly better than Impact Assault Blasters while also being decent in comparison to the Titan Beam II, the NovaCore Reactors are the most fuel-efficient reactor in the entire game by a significant margin even in comparison to the HyperFusion Reactors and additionally provide an at least competitive power density if not a superior power density to most reactors available at similar points in the game, the Velocity Drive III is only barely inferior to the Torrent Drive III while the earlier versions of the Velocity Drive are greatly superior to the other hyperdrive options, the Swift Vector is the best maneuvering thruster in the game, the StarBurner is the most powerful main thruster available, the Turbo Thruster is the most energy-efficient main thruster worth using and has more thrust density than the Vortex Engine, and the Megatron Z4 III is only just surpassed by the Meridian Shield III. ShadowGhost ECM and Raptor Targeting are as introduced the equal of the standard Countermeasures and Targeting Systems when fully upgraded and only get better from there, Mega-Density Fuel Cells are superior to all the other fuel cells you could use, and the S2F7 Repair bots are superior to the regular versions.

Beyond all this, there's also the consideration that if you play a normal start (rather than pre-warp) you will often start the game with many of these things. This means that your designs from game-start can make use of them, which means that if you continue to research these rather than other systems, you can go through the game and never once refit your ships to change e.g. the armament. This is a greater advantage for the factions whose species-specific technology makes up a considerable and important fraction of their ships (e.g. Sluken with their StarBurners or Boskara with their Shaktur FireStorms) or whose species-specific technology is normally a cause for refits (e.g. Quameno NovaCores or Dhayut Velocity Drives) than it is for factions whose species-specific technology does not take a significant fraction of their ships or is not a normal cause for refits (e.g. Kiadian ShadowGhost ECM or Ugnari Raptor Targeting). There's quite a bit of advantage in knowing that your early- or early mid-game designs are going to stay reasonably current even without retrofits into the late mid-game.

Nevertheless, you do of course have to consider when it's worthwhile. In the long run, any species-specific component which is surpassed by a standard component should eventually be replaced, and you need to decide whether it's worth tailoring your research program to the long-term or to the short- to mid-term - in the near future and mid-term future, those species-specific technologies are very likely to be the superior option. They're ultimately surpassed, but this doesn't mean that getting the Pulse Wave Cannon is a bad idea - sure, Titan Beam IIIs and, arguably, Titan Beam IIs are superior to Pulse Wave Cannon IIIs, but Pulse Wave Cannon Is are at worst comparable to Shatterforce Laser Is and Impact Assault Blaster IIs while being clearly superior to Impact Assault Blaster Is and available at around the same time as Maxos Blaster IIs, and Pulse Wave Cannon IIs are slightly superior to Titan Beam Is, and unlike with the Shatterforce/IAB to Titan Beam transition, you don't need to refit your ships to carry the improved weapons. I would also say that the Shaktur FireStorm, despite being classed as a torpedo, falls more into the category of the blaster (Maxos Blaster, IAB, Shatterforce Laser, Titan Beam) as the game progresses, and that its main selling point from mid-game onwards (and possibly from its introduction) is that it combines bombardment capability and combat capability in a reasonably competent package rather than that it's some kind of awesome combat weapon.



Nanaki -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/9/2014 4:27:32 PM)

Depends on the component.

Some racial components are straight-up upgrades, such as the Shadowghost, Raptor, Swift Vector, Megadensity cells, and S2F7 Repairbots.

Some racial components are a mixed bag.
Velocitydrive - The first model is by far the most energy efficient jumpdrive out there. It is a valid replacement for even the Torrent Drive III for ships where speed is less important than fuel efficiency. Do NOT get the later models though, as the increase of speed is pitiful compared to the massive increase of energy consumption.

Megatron Z4 - Roughly equivilant to the Meridian Shield. Not superior, but not inferior. I suppose you could get it to save RPs on shields.

Hyperefficient drives - Not a fan of these myself.

Starblaster - Means you need fewer engines to reach a level of thrust, which means more mass you can put into other things.

Novacore - Very energy efficient, the downside is that they weigh significantly more. The bigger your fuel tanks, the more benefit you will get out of this. Ships with small fuel stores (escorts) are better off with the hyperfusion reactor.

Shaktur Firestorm - A straight-up upgrade to the nuclear bombardment weapons. They do not kill as many per weapon, but due to their ability to be used against ships, the Shaktur Firestorm enables your bombardment cruisers to be used as regular warships, as opposed to sitting around completely useless until you need one to bomb a planet.



Aeson -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/10/2014 5:25:01 AM)

quote:

Hyperefficient drives - Not a fan of these myself.

I would say that the Ackdarian Turbo Thrusters are more overshadowed than not good. On a cruise thrust per component basis, the Turbo Thruster I is already better than anything short of a Vortex Engine, Acceleros II, or Quantum III, and on a cruise thrust per unit size basis it's better than anything short of an Acceleros III or a Vortex II, and at the same time they require a quarter or a third the power used by these. The Sluken StarBurners are better, yes, but they also take three to five times as much power, depending on which components you want to compare. Turbo Thruster sprint thrust isn't terribly impressive, though even there it's better than the comparable standard components. Long story short, if you're playing Ackdarians, you might as well research these unless you can get your hands on StarBurners (however, it's debatable as to how far you should pursue your research, as even the initial version of it has a fair shot at being good enough for most of the game, and unless you care about sublight drive fuel efficiency StarBurners are mostly better if you can get your hands on them as it takes a Turbo Thruster III to surpass the StarBurner I's per-component and per-unit size thrust output).

quote:

Velocitydrive - The first model is by far the most energy efficient jumpdrive out there. It is a valid replacement for even the Torrent Drive III for ships where speed is less important than fuel efficiency. Do NOT get the later models though, as the increase of speed is pitiful compared to the massive increase of energy consumption.

I think this is overselling the fuel economy aspect in comparison to the Torrent III. The Torrent III is about 1.54 times faster and requires about 1.64 times as much power, meaning that if the only significant difference between the two ships is the hyperdrive, a Torrent III is only ~6% less fuel efficient than a Velocity I (against a Torrent II, this is more like 16%, while for a Torrent I this is like 22%, which makes the fuel economy argument much more reasonable; these numbers are ceilings for the fuel efficiency difference, as the non-hyperdrive components will decrease the relative difference in energy consumption while in hyperspace and thus make the fuel consumptions more similar to one another). It further undersells the value of gaining access to something nearly as good as a Torrent II at the time when everyone else is only getting the first upgrade of their mid-game hyperdrive, such as the Equinox II. The Velocity Drive II is only slightly slower in hyperspeed and jump initiation than the Torrent II while being available two tech levels earlier and for significantly less research cost with slightly lower power requirements. The biggest failing of the Velocity Drive II is more that it doesn't maintain the same kind of speed advantage over the Equinox II as the Velocity Drive I provides over the Gerax Hyperdrive II, as it falls from a 56% advantage in speed to a 22% advantage (plus the faster jump initiation). The final version also isn't terrible by comparison with the Torrent III, as the fuel efficiency is only about 9% worse (less when you factor in non-drive power requirements), and both upgrades of the Velocity Drive are still more fuel-efficient than any hyperdrive that isn't a Torrent III.

I do agree, however, that if you're looking for a hyperdrive that trades speed for fuel economy, Velocity Is are the way to go. I don't agree that it's a trade-off worth worrying about, but the Velocity Drive I does it much better than any version of the Calista-Dal, which is the second-best option for this purpose.



Nanaki -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/10/2014 10:15:11 AM)

quote:


The Torrent III is about 1.54 times faster and requires about 1.64 times as much power


Which is still more efficient, mind you. The Velocitydrive I is the most fuel efficient hyperdrive in the game, wheras Velocitydrive III is just a watered down Torrent III.



Icemania -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/10/2014 11:19:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
Despite Icemania's claim that they require his or her balance mod to be worthwhile, the species-specific technologies are generally worth having in the unmodded game.

Yeah it was a bit of a Mod plug. But it’s an AI Improvement Mod not simply a Balance Mod. Weapon Balancing was one small component.

If we use the Boskara as an example there are significant problems with the Vanilla AI and how the Shaktur Firestorm is utilised (or Automation if used by a Human Player):

1. Research orders are not focused.

2. All Weapons Ship Tactics are used so the short-range DPS benefits of the Shaktur Firestorm are often unused.

3. Escort and Frigate designs have no Torpedoes at all (42% of their ships), while other military ship designs have a mix of Phasers and Torpedoes. In addition Fighters are used via Carriers.

In contrast, with the AI Improvement Mod the Boskara focus early on Shaktur Firestorm Weapons Research, uses Point Blank Military Ship Tactics and Torpedo focused designs. For example, in a test game on 4X speed with Very Cheap Research, the Vanilla AI researched Shaktur Firestorm I after 4.5 Years, Shaktur Firestorm II after 13.5 Years and Shaktur Firestorm III was not researched after 20 years. In comparison with the AI Improvement Mod, with exactly the same settings, Shaktur Firestorm I was available after 1.2 Years, Shaktur Firestorm II after 3 Years and Shaktur Firestorm III after 9.5 years.

If you want to play against AI that researches and uses racial technologies effectively then you will need the AI Improvement Mod.



Aeson -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/10/2014 6:32:33 PM)

quote:

Which is still more efficient, mind you. The Velocitydrive I is the most fuel efficient hyperdrive in the game, wheras Velocitydrive III is just a watered down Torrent III.

If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll notice that I do acknowledge that, taken in isolation, the Velocity Drive I is more fuel efficient than the Torrent Drive. However, the difference between ~367 range units on 1 energy (Velocity I) and ~345 range units on 1 energy (Torrent III) is rather negligible, as it's only a 6% fuel savings. By the time I have Torrent Drive IIIs, saving that little on fuel costs for a trip is not particularly worthwhile, not when it means that the trip takes half again as long. Furthermore, while the Velocity I is indeed more fuel-efficient than the Torrent III when taken in isolation, the picture begins to change when you include the static requirements of the ships in the fuel economy computation.

Let's say, for example, that we have a ship with a Torrent III and a nearly identical ship with a Velocity I, and both ships have a static energy requirement of 10. Let's assume that a jump takes T seconds for the ship with the Velocity Drive, ignoring jump initiation. This means that the ship with the Velocity Drive I will require 74T units of energy to complete the jump. The ship with the Torrent Drive III will take about 0.648*T seconds to complete the jump, meaning that it will require 74.6T units of energy to complete its jump. The efficiency gain in a practical situation is barely worth considering when comparing the Torrent III and the Velocity I; this is less than a 1% fuel savings on a small ship and it comes at the cost of taking ~50% more time to complete the trip. If you have a static energy requirement greater than 11, then the Torrent III becomes more efficient than the Velocity I for any jump.

quote:

If you want to play against AI that researches and uses racial technologies effectively then you will need the AI Improvement Mod.

Skunkpuppy didn't ask if the computer would research and use the species-specific technologies, he or she asked if he or she should research and use them.

quote:

3. Escort and Frigate designs have no Torpedoes at all (42% of their ships), while other military ship designs have a mix of Phasers and Torpedoes. In addition Fighters are used via Carriers.

I don't view this as an issue with how the computer uses Shaktur FireStorms. After all, Shaktur FireStorms are not the greatest of weapons for space combat, as in range and DPS per unit size the Shaktur FireStorms are generally more comparable to similar-tech blasters than similar-tech torpedoes, and by comparison to blasters, Shaktur FireStorms are generally somewhat lacking (they do however generally have better per-shot damage than blasters). Thus, I don't want Shaktur FireStorms on the majority of my ships. I want them on a few ships so that I can bomb targets of opportunity while raiding rather than having to commit troops or build ships with weapons which are useless (bombardment missiles) or nearly useless (massive railguns) in ship to ship combat. Shaktur FireStorms are bombardment weapons which are useful in battle, or ship to ship weapons which lose some of their anti-ship utility in exchange for being bombardment-capable, not the kind of weapons you use as the fleet standard main gun.

quote:

2. All Weapons Ship Tactics are used so the short-range DPS benefits of the Shaktur Firestorm are often unused.

This is a flaw that affects all weapons with a range penalty. Shaktur FireStorms may suffer a bit more than most given that their damage loss with range is comparatively high, but it isn't a flaw exclusive to them. Additionally, 'all weapons' should try to keep a Shaktur FireStorm ship mostly out of the range of a railgun ship, or out of the range of a blaster ship unless Shatterforce Lasers or Titan Beams are involved, assuming that the ~80% of the lowest maximum range of any weapon on the ship that you indicated in the Weapons Balancing thread is true. Trading some offensive power for immunity to your opponent is not a bad deal in my book, and is a large part of the reason why standard torpedoes and missiles are as useful as they are.



MikeSF -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/10/2014 9:18:01 PM)

Personally I think the racial specific traits can be worth it, if the bonuses are something that you actually want. The problem is a lot of players probably focus on a single play style, and while they might "role play" with a specific race based on racial qualities (i.e. you would play the Quameno and Teekan in vastly different styles as far to how you run your empire) usually when it comes to tech people bee-line for the same techs, you worry about DPS, max thrust/speed, etc, efficiency? BAH! I want to get their as fast as possible and blow up everything as quickly as possible at the longest possible range. So if you don't care about certain perks that those race specific things have, then they aren't worth it, but if you do care about efficiency then it is worth.

Also another thing to think about is total research necessary. Race specific techs require much MUCH less research than "normal" techs to reach the apex, so you can possibly have a huge advantage in that field over other races for quite a while. Take the most extreme example of the warp drives. In order to get to the last level of Dhayet Velocity drives you need 1 level3, 1 level5, 1 level7 tech, so the equivalent of 84 level1 research projects (amount of research differs by your game settings), if instead of going that direction you went for the Torrent drives you need 2 level3, 4 level4, 4level5, 1 level6, 1 level7, 1 level8, or 328 level1 research projects, so you'd have to research almost 4 times as much to get to the end, which is only marginally better. Granted the drives are the worse case of this, but still holds true for other techs as well.




Icemania -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/11/2014 12:23:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
3. Escort and Frigate designs have no Torpedoes at all (42% of their ships), while other military ship designs have a mix of Phasers and Torpedoes. In addition Fighters are used via Carriers.

I don't view this as an issue with how the computer uses Shaktur FireStorms. After all, Shaktur FireStorms are not the greatest of weapons for space combat, as in range and DPS per unit size the Shaktur FireStorms are generally more comparable to similar-tech blasters than similar-tech torpedoes, and by comparison to blasters, Shaktur FireStorms are generally somewhat lacking (they do however generally have better per-shot damage than blasters). Thus, I don't want Shaktur FireStorms on the majority of my ships. I want them on a few ships so that I can bomb targets of opportunity while raiding rather than having to commit troops or build ships with weapons which are useless (bombardment missiles) or nearly useless (massive railguns) in ship to ship combat. Shaktur FireStorms are bombardment weapons which are useful in battle, or ship to ship weapons which lose some of their anti-ship utility in exchange for being bombardment-capable, not the kind of weapons you use as the fleet standard main gun.

Each item I've listed cannot be discussed in isolation, they strongly interact.

As per the timing example providing in my previous post, in comparison to the Vanilla AI researching multiple weapons types, the Improved AI will be a tier ahead at the same point in time.

At the 2 year mark, the Vanilla AI has Maxos Blaster I's and Epsilon I's, while the Improved AI has Shaktur Firestorm I's. Now consider a Vanilla AI ship design and an Improved AI ship design. The Improved AI ship design has superior DPS. Epsilon I's have longer range which is countered by using Point Blank tactics.

At the 5 year mark, the Vanilla AI has Shaktur Firestorm I's and Maxos Blaster II's, while the Improved AI has Shaktur Firestorm II's. Now consider a Vanilla AI ship design and an Improved AI ship design. The Improved AI ship design has superior DPS.

And so on.

Even after Shaktur Firestorm III's there is an advantage. As less research points are required in Weapons, other areas can be researched earlier e.g. armour, repair bots etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
2. All Weapons Ship Tactics are used so the short-range DPS benefits of the Shaktur Firestorm are often unused.

This is a flaw that affects all weapons with a range penalty. Shaktur FireStorms may suffer a bit more than most given that their damage loss with range is comparatively high, but it isn't a flaw exclusive to them.

Fully agree, which is why the Shaktur Firestorm isn't the only weapon where the Improved AI uses Point Blank tactics. Thanks for mentioning it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
Additionally, 'all weapons' should try to keep a Shaktur FireStorm ship mostly out of the range of a railgun ship, or out of the range of a blaster ship unless Shatterforce Lasers or Titan Beams are involved, assuming that the ~80% of the lowest maximum range of any weapon on the ship that you indicated in the Weapons Balancing thread is true. Trading some offensive power for immunity to your opponent is not a bad deal in my book, and is a large part of the reason why standard torpedoes and missiles are as useful as they are.

If I could Mod this I would have, but we can only select one tactic. The selected strategy needs to consider the best approach against a range of weapon types.

When facing long-range weapons, like Missiles and Torpedoes, Point Blank provides a DPS advantage and All Weapons leads to a wipe out.

When facing Carriers, Phasers and Rail Guns, Point Blank provides a DPS advantage compared to All Weapons.

Against Blasters it would have been more accurate for you to say there is a mixed bag depending on which Blaster. Apart from Shatterforce Lasers and Titan Beams, All Weapons won't help against Pulsewave Cannons either.

All Weapons is not a good choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
If you want to play against AI that researches and uses racial technologies effectively then you will need the AI Improvement Mod.

Skunkpuppy didn't ask if the computer would research and use the species-specific technologies, he or she asked if he or she should research and use them.

As I said in my previous post I acknowledge that it was bit of a Mod plug. And thanks for assisting with plugging it further!





Jeeves -> RE: Are racial special techs worthwhile? (9/15/2014 12:19:50 PM)

Some racial techs exist to give you research for free from retiring ships of the conquered empire... For example, I never bought the Haakonish racial, and in preparation for war I gave them large gifts for a full year in advance so that they would build up their military. I conquered them a couple of days ago and got over 250 warships to retire with their racial fuel tank. I expect to have enough bonus points to complete the last of the research tree from retiring their ships. I also get all my gift cash back from the regular cash reward for retiring ships...

Lonnie Courtney Clay



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