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LoBaron -> RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game. (10/22/2014 9:01:32 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Endy
While I agree that some of the whining comes from lack of knowledge of how the game works or lack of preparation, there are genuine situations, and quite a lot of them, where luck plays a major role. And it can be very easily checked by simply replaying the turn. I did my share of it with my opponent who was also interested in how stuff could play out with a different dice roll and in a few different scenarios - carrier strike, SAG battle etc. - the results varied from catastrophical to really good ones depending on a dice roll.
And I don't agree that you can plan for everything. Despite your best skills there are always factors you have absolutely no control over. Weather is just one example - absolutely no control over it and no way to plan or prepare for it because the forecasts are not a reliable tool to predict it. And just this one factor can lead to a MAJOR difference in results, for example a carrier battle or a surface action depending if you get nice weather or a thunderstorm in the target hex or hexes. And yes, it's just a matter of how lucky you are with the roll despite everything else you did.
I can name a few other factors but I believe you get my point. Yes, this kind of randomness in some factors is pretty realistic and true to life and most of us have learned to accept them. However, some players are used to something very different and to games, even pretty realistic ones, where the battle outcome just can't vary so much depending on just one factor. Many games, even the more complex or realistic ones, let you predict your chances very well, with only slight variation of the final result. Of course, you might argue that this is more similar to chess than real war but some players react very badly when this kind of control is taken away from them.
I'll say again, yes, WITP has got most of these random things right and yes, stuff you can't control like weather could play a major role in a sea battle and shape history and should do the same in game. The problems start when you realize that if you moved that one squadron somewhere on the West coast or in Japan, then that carrier battle could've been just as easily as it has been lost. And like I said, some other wargames have randomness confined to a much bigger degree and you can predict the results of your actions MUCH better without the wild disparity of results based on a random dice roll.
And some players react histerically to that and have a really hard time accepting it in Witp. Then again, this game is just not for everyone and you need to learn to accept it as it is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Point being, most air combat, and particularly naval air combat, had a lot of variable NOT controlled by the commanders. Weather being first, but FOW being right with it. Intel was far from perfect. Because of these two factors alone, coordination was measured in double digit minutes, not seconds like today. I think that, more than anything, is what many [younger] players struggle with. They have never been in a situation where absolute, total control was not possible. Products of the digital age, the whole concept of analog is just foreign.
Anyway, just thoughts of an analogue Neanderthal.
Reread our discussion and just want to note that in general I agree with you anyway.
PaxMondo actually made the comment that got me thinking.
Most kids nowerdays are used to a world where collecting data and predicting events is simply a matter of using the touchscreen of the nearest available handset. For many it is difficult to imagine a world where the main difficulty was not to pick the correct information out of an abundance of data available, but to be able to access even a fraction of that data in the first place.
The (naval) battles of WWII were shaped by individuals interpreting those - in most cases insufficient - data fragments, in the course of events before a battle, as well as during engagements. Few had the capabilities to account for what important bits of information they could use to their advantage while remaining aware of what might still be hidden behind curtain of FOW, and based on this knowledge making the right decisions. Those were the artists who shaped the course of a battle.
Good discussion gents, also in the parallel thread created by Lecivius. [sm=00000436.gif]
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