RE: Turn 160 (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: Turn 160 (7/30/2015 11:12:51 PM)

Last turn Stavka

Won 12 battles and lost 11, so the tempo is very light.

With the 2 hex retreat per turn coupled with the strong panzers OKH still has Stavka has very few units it can attack with good odds.

4 of the 12 wins were vs regiments.

I am hoping when the front goes from 90+ hexes to 60 I have 2 or 3 divisions in the front line, 1 divisions in 2nd and a 3rd line of diggers.

OKH receives allot of new divisions an brigades over the next 51 turns.

July to Jan 1st + 21 divisions
Jan to march + 32 divisions
March to end +18 divisions

I did not bother counting regiments.

So the key is to hold things together over the next 12 turns aka not giving up to much
space and not losing to many divisions so that when these +53 divisions by March 1st
come on line I should have at least a fighting chance to not retreat at all making Stavka grind it out to Berlin.

That's the plan anyways as there simply is no "other" plan.




smokindave34 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/2/2015 6:28:31 PM)

Here are a few screens from the Soviet perspective. I finally achieved a bit of a breakthrough in the north. The 7th Guards army breaks through with the 4th tank corps taking key terrain about 100km east of Riga. Pelton has kept me from obtaining any breakthroughs to this point so this is the highlight of my summer offensive so far.

I won't post much here since it's Pelton's AAR however I have seen some recent threads discussing how much HI is needed to survive. I wouldn't use my results as a minimum. Pelton's destruction of my industry really slowed me down up until now and a lot of my units had been low on MP's. I've had to keep my army relatively small just to keep it supplied.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/6B2F5BEDCC874F4BA064A499786795EC.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/2/2015 6:32:05 PM)

In the center Pelton has held me to a standstill at the land bridge for the whole summer period so far. I finally managed some gains this turn and crossed the Dnepr at three points. The 1st tank corps is across in force south of Mogilev. I moved two of my tank armies (the ones that achieved the breakthrough in the north) out of the land bridge area last turn since they were being wasted waiting for a breakthrough that wasn't going to happen with all those elite panzers in the area.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/8F76AB4CBE3449999514B19483C05D58.jpg[/image]



smokindave34 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/2/2015 6:34:18 PM)

Finally in the south Pelton has lots of room to pull back so there is very little action in this part of the front. This is what a typical turn looks like south of the marshes and I don't have the MP for many deliberate attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/27926/3408901F34DD41FE885191C31ACCD92A.jpg[/image]



BrianG -> RE: Turn 160 (8/2/2015 7:50:41 PM)

Just as a reminder:

What is your production and armaments?



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/2/2015 8:13:05 PM)

Yes I think we figured out about the minimum heavy industry needed to sustain the Soviet Army at full capability. Looks to be about 180 heavy industry, so you can tell in this game being below 180 slowed down the Soviet recovery.

You can prolly survive and keep a decent size army on abit under 180 if you cut planes an such but 180 really is what the Soviets need for full operations.



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/3/2015 1:21:58 PM)

Ehh Pelton is doing far better than historical dont really understand his complaints. his lines are actually quite strong for summer 1944 and he still has several major natural barriers to use in defense. Unless you knock the Soviets out of the war this is about the best situation the Germans could hope for in 1944.

I dont think he realizes that historically the Germans were losing the war very badly by June/July 1944 lol.



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 165 (8/4/2015 10:29:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ehh Pelton is doing far better than historical dont really understand his complaints. his lines are actually quite strong for summer 1944 and he still has several major natural barriers to use in defense. Unless you knock the Soviets out of the war this is about the best situation the Germans could hope for in 1944.

I dont think he realizes that historically the Germans were losing the war very badly by June/July 1944 lol.


I can read, again this is not a movie or a book but a game.

As dave has pointed out German army by design gets weaker not because of good game play.

Also as dave has pointed out by design the Red Army gets stronger by design.

Morale goes up or down based on designer input not what has taken place on the battle field.

Why would German morale go down if they are doing far better then historical and why would Russian morale go up if they are doing far worse?

Its not because of how the players are doing.

If Moscow falls German morale by design drops in 43 and by design Russian morale increases

aka a 25% shift in CV strength?

Industry, land ect is simply window dressing that chaos just can not get his mind around as he has zip exp playing or even reading AAR's past 42.

As dave and myself know the game is a snowball and these effects can not model history for the simply FACT we are all Monday morning quarterbacks- thank god Chaos is not a game designer as his games would be uber boring. He be much better at writing a book.

Expecting to win just because history says you should is boring or that you should be in Berlin in May.

Why we play is to change history bro not be a mindless player.



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 160 (8/4/2015 12:10:33 PM)

Pelton- Ive had the same complaints playing as the Soviets. Soviet NM drops in 1942 no matter what which allows the Germans to do very well if not better than historical just because of it.

If the Germans far, far outperformed historical its a possibility and I think this game models that well. Knock the Soviets out by the end of 1942 or else and the sudden death victory conidtions model that. If you dont hit 260 by April 1943 you are in for a slow inevitable defeat.

If you want a game where the Germans can maybe win the war you have to do strategic where you control the entire German war effort can make/change production and not make the strategic mistakes the Germans made historical. All basically things you have no control over in this game.

By playing this game you can change history so to speak you can slow down the Soviets ability to retake ground and most likely keep Berlin kicking for alittle extra time. I think in this game vs Dave you have a very good chance to last longer than historical. You didnt win in 1941/1942 so its just the result, effectively you lost the war by not winning it. Pretty reasonable outcome for the weaker aggressor in the world war.

Look at how many Soviet players you defeat in 1941 so the game models the Germans ability to win in 1941. The issue is if the Germans dont win in 1941 they get a last desperate shot in 1942 to carry the field- which is a long shot and requires again much, much better results than historical to win. By 1942 as long as the Soviets have men the allies would have given them everything else they needed to keep fighting. The USA made so much crap, so much......Once the USA was in the war the material/manpower advantage the allies had was so overwhelming no operations/tactical successes by the Germans/Japanese would win the war period.

Again National Morale its a massive issue to me in the game- the only way to take it out of the game would be to make combat losses historical. An as you have said the game system cant handle historical losses nor effectively model them.

To be realistic National Morale should be tied to battlefield success/failure- such as:

Make this a one time hits to all units on that side when they happen:
Soviet National Morale- drops by 5 points each for the loss of Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad-need realistic city combat/last stand modifiers for this to work though.
German National Morale-drops by 5 points for each 1 Million in total casualties they sustain- need realistic casualty modeling in the game for this to work though.

Honestly wish NM could be done away with and a better way found to model it. Such as give all units a bottom level of say 40-50 and let game play determine the rest- in other words units can gain from training/refit away from the lines or combat but dont automatically lose morale randomly for being above national morale.

I think the primary issue is the game takes so long to actually play that testing different methods to see if they are balanced take months if not years of testing in a game this scale. Effectively players/buyers of the game are the playtest.



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 165 (8/21/2015 4:55:10 PM)

Turn 165---Turns left: 46 with 12 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 590 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +25 ------------------------------------- VP: 159

GHC Armaments: 693,000 +3,000
Manpower in Pool: 288,000 -84,000
SHC OOB: 9,570,000 + 350,000
GHC OOB: 3,612,000 -50,000

The last five turns have been much better, GHC lost 2 panzer and 1 infantry division over 5 turns which is very good considering its August 1944.
The Manpower pool looks like it will hold up for at least the summer, which is only another 7 turns.
New divisions are starting to arrive [sm=character0272.gif]

GHC has already garrisions both the Hun and Romanian capitals and the 2 trip citys.

GHC just need to keep from any major encirclements over the next 7 turns, this should give time during mud to set-up a solid line before blizzard weather hits in December.

2 fort lines have been dug one west of the Oder and another about 80 miles east of the Oder. I would like to have this zone a blanket of forts by the time Stavka gets to it in 45.




[image]local://upfiles/20387/F523B42AC12A4721B055D39A34691384.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 170 (8/21/2015 5:07:55 PM)

These are the defenses from Riga to The Marsh.

3 divisions in the front lines, 1 panzer division in the 2nd ( reserve mode) and the 3rd is regiments.

The front stacks are 2 from same Army with 1 from another army, why?

Basicly so RR can come from 2 different Armys and not just the one. So no matter what 1 to 3 panzer divisions will react to any attacks along the front.
This forces Stavka to commit Rifle Corps to any attacks, Tank/Cav/Mech Corps don't cut it.
Also if a hex is lost the 2nd line is 2x or 3x stacked with 1-3 units RR to any attack so again tank/cav/mech Corps will have to get lucky to win.

The 3rd line is digging in so the following turn when GHC pulls back 2 hexes the front is in level 1 forts.

The good thing also about this set-up is any pushes by Stavka, GHC can easly counter attack cutting them off or simply driving them back so there always is a 2 hex buffer when its Stavkas turn.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/CDA15015EA5543159C7C738DF8AC8D05.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 170 (9/4/2015 2:00:10 PM)

Turn 170 Turns left: 41 with 12 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 470 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +18 ------------------------------------- VP: 143

GHC Armaments: 771,000 Manpower in Pool: 220,000 -60,000
SHC OOB: 9,804,000 + 234,000
GHC OOB: 3,621,000 +9,000


Units lost last five turns: 8 Infantry / 0 Panzer Divisions

Been another rough 5 turns losing 8 infantry divisions, but manpower pool has been able to easily replace losses so far.
Hex to Berlin ratio is getting tight, but with winter coming +2 per MP hex and front shrinking down to 60 hexes lines will get stronger.

Not one step back order will be given soon.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/8E5A47C4924141B7B56174D2607F3B70.jpg[/image]



STEF78 -> RE: Turn 170 (9/4/2015 8:38:10 PM)

Very interesting game...

It's very difficult to keep the german army in good shape past summer 1944!

Good luck



M60A3TTS -> RE: Turn 170 (9/21/2015 11:38:41 AM)

Has there been any progress in this game?



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 175 (10/3/2015 4:09:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Has there been any progress in this game?


Yes some, I have a 2 week vacation then had to do 3 weeks work in 2.

So I am back to normal play time now.

We are on turn 174 so once Dave is done I will have and up date for turn 175



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 175 (10/9/2015 4:47:22 PM)

Turn 175 Turns left: 36 with 9 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 470 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +18 ------------------------------------- VP: 138

GHC Armaments: 919,000 +10,000 Manpower in Pool: 190,000 -10,000
SHC OOB: 9,904,000 + 100,000
GHC OOB: 3,645,000 +24,000


Units lost last five turns: 0 Infantry / 0 Panzer Divisions

A good 5 turns over all OOB, manpower pool and armament pools are growing. No divisions were pocketed, mud is here and snow/blizzard is on the way.

I still have some space to trade, not sure if it will be enough.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/F1EE03AED55941478C49B43889041A0E.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 175 (10/9/2015 4:49:38 PM)

Figured I throw in the OOB.

8k+ tanks for Germany not bad and guns have been +40k for the war. Manpower pool is going down slowly, but soon I will not be able to trade space and will have to stand and die tring to hold.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/E7DE722311444C78AEAB1574F6B92FA8.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 180 (10/9/2015 4:51:29 PM)

Losses for the war.

Lose ratio is 2.5 to 1, but will massively increase as the war comes to a close and I expect it to be closer to 2 to 1 if that.

AFV lose seem clearly non historical at 3.5 to 1


[image]local://upfiles/20387/59FA055E9FC44FDDAA09A23B98A09BE9.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 180 (10/24/2015 6:13:07 PM)

Turn 180 Turns left: 31 with 8 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 470 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +24 ------------------------------------- VP: 127

GHC Armaments: 1,000,000 +10,000 Manpower in Pool: 160,000 -30,000
SHC OOB: 10,104,000 + 200,000
GHC OOB: 3,750,000 +105,000


Units lost last five turns: 0 Infantry / 0 Panzer Divisions

AGN GHC has managed to pull 12 panzer divisions and some infantry off the line to use as a reserve army. 1 more turn retreating then GHC will stand and fight.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/FCB15421CC454471A29CC4D3DE224CF5.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 180 (10/24/2015 6:13:54 PM)

AGS Romania surrenders, but GHC was in position to flip 60% of the country back over to German rule.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/455DA7E19F9748C9BC97D023EDE3B8D3.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 182 (10/29/2015 10:22:09 PM)

Turn 182 GHC is making its stand to buy time. 29 hexes and 29 turns to Berlin. I have each Corp with a Flak Regiment, 7+ commander, 6 gun units, 3 infantry divisions in front line and 2 panzer divisions in reserve mode in the 2nd and 2 more lines behind that digging. This wall goes down to Lodz (38 hexes to Berlin), I also have 12 infantry divisions (1st PZ Army) that I pulled off line just south of Lodz moving north to help with digging ect. 17th Army (12 infantry divisions) will also be pulled off line next turn and head north to help hold the line closest to Berlin. There are also 35 new divisions arriving during the next 10 turns and another 17 before May 45.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/A651D6D474BF4471833B58B2AE0502B8.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 182 (10/29/2015 10:22:47 PM)

AGS is a bust and to far from Berlin to matter. I have 12 infantry divisions in trouble. Huns are on there own other then those 12 divisions.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/37D9012DA0664019A62591C9C1B88F01.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> Turn 183 (11/1/2015 8:19:43 PM)

Turn 183 Russian manages to take 6 hexes, but Germany retakes all but 1. 28 hexes to Berlin with 28 turns left. GHC decides to try and hold the line for 1 turn

[image]local://upfiles/20387/2C2EFE2A1CE448F99936B1044C1A4BBF.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 184 (11/1/2015 8:20:37 PM)

AGS with draws 1 to 2 hexes as needed. 16 divisions have been pulled off line and move north. I left a few divisions out to dry so to speak I need to see how mobile his units really are and this turn could make or break the game. I am taking a risk.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/35F46266430348D78BF0F603ED4199C2.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 184 (11/6/2015 2:06:14 PM)

Turn 184 heavy fighting along the important area of the front, but AGN manages to hang on with no enemy breakthroughs. Still 28 hexes to Berlin with 27 turns left.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/D7B73E7479234F77A698CC6393276007.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 184 (11/6/2015 2:06:49 PM)

AGS keeps pulling back as they have far more then 28 hexes to Berlin.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/C9B3DF7FC74348559B3C4CCCDF2A02AD.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Turn 184 (11/6/2015 3:40:41 PM)

Dave may get to the Oder, but Berlin should be safe and quiet at the end. There's just too much for him to grind through.



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 185 (11/16/2015 5:56:47 AM)

Turn 185 AGN holds the lines for another turn beating back several attacks. The lines are now 50 to 60 miles thick and no enemy breakthroughs. Still 28 hexes to Berlin with 26 turns left. Spring is still 13 or 14 turns away. With the 8 turns of mud that’s a hex ratio of +10. Manpower is down to 66,000 and OOB at 3.8 million.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/112617CC265444CBB850788498C48CF9.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Turn 185 (11/16/2015 5:57:26 AM)

AGS keeps falling back as the ratio is huge.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/37C41EAD052A458C9BBAA870922DA587.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 185 (11/16/2015 2:20:12 PM)

Think you can chalk this game up as a German win despite what the VP may say. As you will be holding far more ground than historical at the end.

Think it also shows that massive Soviet land loss and industry loss can affect the soviets ability to make progress back towards the West.



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