Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 2:59:37 PM)

I'm "in" if WitW turns out to be a masterpiece. But based upon what I've seen with the releases of WitE (all kinds of bugs) and WiF (promises not kept, at least after more than a year), I'm leary of making the investment. I want to hear from players I know and trust that the game is fantastic. I don't want to go through years of teething pains on a product that isn't ready or is poorly balanced or is buggy.

I've been spoiled by WitP: AE. Best game ever. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy playing it until my life comes to an end, if only it didn't require so much time! (That's a compliment, by the way.)

So, if WitW is fun and of good quality and doesn't require immense time on the scale of AE, then I'll buy it. But I need to see and hear the reviews from trusted players first.



zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:03:50 PM)

was you on twitch last night watching it live being played?

was great and live, got great feedback and questioned answered, look at that feed as it's posted now and make your own mind up



Canoerebel -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:08:39 PM)

It'll take a month or two of feedback before I have enough information to make a decision. There was great excitement with the WitE and WiF releases, too, but over the long haul (IMO) neither has lived up to it's promise.

I'm hoping WitW will be a "home run." It would be great to have a grand new game to jump into. But I'm leery.

As for watching on "twitch," I don't know what that is. I'm a Luddite - no cell phone, no portible electronic devices. I have a desk top computer for work and that's it. :)



Erik Rutins -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:09:42 PM)

Hi Canoerebel,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I'm "in" if WitW turns out to be a masterpiece. But based upon what I've seen with the releases of WitE (all kinds of bugs) and WiF (promises not kept, at least after more than a year), I'm leary of making the investment. I want to hear from players I know and trust that the game is fantastic. I don't want to go through years of teething pains on a product that isn't ready or is poorly balanced or is buggy.


That's fine - but WITE was released in 2010 and was quite playable at release. It is still being supported now, including a new update released in the last month. It has had much more than bug fixes with major new features still added four years after release. When did you last play it? I don't consider it a buggy product at all.

MWIF clearly does have issues - it's a year since release and we are still working to address them. However, that release has nothing do with 2by3 Games and I hope you will also take that into account. I regret all the issues with MWIF but we will not stop supporting it until they are fixed.

quote:


I've been spoiled by WitP: AE. Best game ever. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy playing it until my life comes to an end, if only it didn't require so much time! (That's a compliment, by the way.)


Are you aware that both WITP and WITP:AE also received many fixes and feature upgrades well after release, just like WITE? Just like WITE, both were also quite playable at release.

quote:

So, if WitW is fun and of good quality and doesn't require immense time on the scale of AE, then I'll buy it. But I need to see and hear the reviews from trusted players first.


I respect your decision and I am sure that it will meet your bar. Complexity-wise, it's similar to WITE, which is a step below AE or MWIF IMHO. As in WITE, the smaller scenarios allow for relatively quick play and the weekly turns mean a grand campaign (43-45 in this case) can be finished in a reasonable amount of time.

Similar to WITP AE, there are a lot of strategic choices to be made, more so than in WITE which is pretty much entirely a land war. Here you have much more that you can do with the Air War and amphibious/airborne operations. Logistics also are much more realistic than WITE, which makes them more similar planning-wise to WITP.

Regards,

- Erik




zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:09:52 PM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3751077

^^ replay is online now



76mm -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:25:13 PM)

quote:

...WITE was released in 2010 and was quite playable at release.


If by playable you mean that the game did not crash, etc., then you are correct. If you mean that the rules were well thought-out, and the game balanced (among many issues, the blizzard rules, 1:1=>2:1 rule, etc.), then I strongly disagree--hence the many patches the game has gone through.

I'm with Canoerebel on this one; I've also bought WitE and WiF and am not going to buy another expensive game upon release only to find that it too should have been a beta-release.

I'm also not crazy about the bizarre, convoluted, and opaque combat resolution engine and IGO-UGO movement in WitE, which I understand are also in this game, so not sure I'll be picking it up at all...




Erik Rutins -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 3:32:03 PM)

Hi 76mm,

You certainly have a right to that opinion. I disagree in that many of the issues you are pointing too only became issues after months or years of competitive multiplayer play where the community reached a consensus that they preferred a change from the original design. To their credit, 2by3 listened and in each case those design choices have been made optional or changed. This is really no different to the process WITP and WITP AE went through. I think every "monster" game benefits from additional support and adjustment as the number of players and games completed increases.

Also FYI, the combat system in WITW is much improved and much less opaque than it was in WITE. You can see exactly what happened in each combat and IMHO it makes good sense. You should have a look at the 1.08 update in WITE as well if you have time.

Regards,

- Erik



KenchiSulla -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 4:51:21 PM)

Hi Canoerebel,

I understand your hesitation. To be honest I only decided on buying after seeing some of the beta testers being enthusiastic..

I'm committed to a PBEM in WitP:AE but I'll start playing to learn the game. Perhaps a "learning" AAR from my side is interesting?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:08:27 PM)

I'm going to give them a day ([:)]) to enjoy the launch. On the fence myself after WitE experience. A large part of that is not liking counters as much as AE's system. I also need a bit of combat animation to keep me in the mood. WitE was just hundreds of thousands of dead guys displayed in a spreadsheet. I need a little pizzaz. I doubt this has that, but the air models look incredible and amphib ops without AE's complexity might be a nice rest. And I know the theaters a lot better than I did the East.

But I don't want to be the guy who gets drunk and pukes in the bushes at the birthday party. The devs and beta testers worked incredibly hard on this beast. I'm letting them have a victory lap. I hope the game is a huge success and funds a WITP2 internal development team. [8D]



sfbaytf -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:25:56 PM)

See some faces from my WitP days. This is one of those must buys even though I may not play as much as I did WitP.

GG is one of those designers that is legendary in my book. I hardly played War in the East. I loved the old War in the West. Ill probably end up playing the new WitW more than the East.



Qwixt -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:33:05 PM)

This game is enticing for me. I've been leaning towards getting WitP:AE this xmas, but after watching the twitch stream, I am considering this game as well. WitW looks like it's quite approachable to learn and play. The only thing that I found disappointing in the stream was the sound effects. I assume the guy had music turned off because I do not remember any. Still, it looked like it would be fun. Given what canoerebel has to say about WitE (I think I have heard those rumors before), I may just stick with the original plan of WitP:AE since it's on sale, and more mature. Plus, I haven't had much luck the past couple of months with newly released games.



76mm -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:33:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I disagree in that many of the issues you are pointing too only became issues after months or years of competitive multiplayer play...

Actually I think that some of the significant issues, particularly the blizzard rules, were apparent right away, and it was difficult at the time to understand how they were overlooked during play-testing...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Also FYI, the combat system in WITW is much improved and much less opaque than it was in WITE.

I'll certainly keep my eye on this forum to see how things play out, and might pick it up a bit later if it looks good.



Curious -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:36:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

As for watching on "twitch," I don't know what that is. I'm a Luddite - no cell phone, no portible electronic devices. I have a desk top computer for work and that's it. :)


I couldn't help but wonder what machine you play your computer games (such as WitW some day) on if your desktop is for work only. Just curious.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:37:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt
This game is enticing for me. I've been leaning towards getting WitP:AE this xmas, but after watching the twitch stream, I am considering this game as well. WitW looks like it's quite approachable to learn and play. The only thing that I found disappointing in the stream was the sound effects. I assume the guy had music turned off because I do not remember any. Still, it looked like it would be fun.


FYI there is indeed in-game music and it's normal for livestreams to turn down music and sound effects so that the viewers can hear the voice more clearly.

Regards,

- Erik




zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:39:32 PM)

was a bit loud last night so we asked live and it was turn down and was very good, best one yet



JocMeister -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:45:59 PM)

IŽll definitively buy this one tomorrow! [&o]



Canoerebel -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 5:58:53 PM)

"I couldn't help but wonder what machine you play your computer games (such as WitW some day) on if your desktop is for work only. Just curious."

I'm the boss, so I use my work computer for all kinds of things, including playing games. (It's not as decadent as it sounds - I spend alot of time at work - ALOT - and take breaks now and then to goof off.)

I've seen alot of WitP:AE folks on this forum today - Bullwinkle, Grotius, Cannonfodder, JocMeister. I've known them for years and years now through the AE forum, which is remarkable for how long-lived and active it is. If people like these speak highly of the game over the weeks and months, I'll know WitW is a keeper.

Bullwinkle is right. I shouldn't have raised this point on the day of release though. Today should be reserved for celebration and merrymaking. My apologies to the design team for serving as a distraction, slight as it might be. And, truly, I'm hoping the game is everything everybody else hopes for. :)



zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 6:14:18 PM)

all feedback and comments are good as it adds to the debate, so all comments are right and correct for the person who wrote them and many who may read them, many will agree, many won't, that's life in a free world so your more than entitled to your opinions with so many posts over so many years, as it all adds up to experience[&o] [&o][&o]

twitch feed pc was a high end i7, but looking at system spec on product page if you ran the last one, it will be fine for this as well, turn time was rapid last night and AI speed on maps / battles shown was well quick so some good optimization has been done already, no idea how it plays on lower minimum spec pc's will be, my old office pc's were like from the ark, where we had to feed a mouse inside to keep it going most days, we turned it on each morning and went off for a drink while it started and warmed up, ah those were the days[:D][;)] but they did keep your feet warm in winter[8|][;)]



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 6:44:07 PM)

I just bought it ; physical version as I am old school

I am super busy now, but by mid to late December I will post my thoughts about the game on both WITP-AE forum and here.
I am also hoping there is a way to connect the two games so I can send some tank divisions to reinforce my AE- PBEM game [;)][:D]

I bet there will be bugs, but I am not concerned, as these games are long term and eventually everything will be fixed




vonRocko -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:13:02 PM)

Has anyone, in testing, finished a full game? When WITE was released, nobody even knew if the game could be played to completion because no one ever finished it.Of course there were all kinds of unknown problems.



morganbj -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've seen alot of WitP:AE folks on this forum today - Bullwinkle, Grotius, Cannonfodder, JocMeister. I've known them for years and years now through the AE forum, which is remarkable for how long-lived and active it is. If people like these speak highly of the game over the weeks and months, I'll know WitW is a keeper.

Bullwinkle is right. I shouldn't have raised this point on the day of release though. Today should be reserved for celebration and merrymaking. My apologies to the design team for serving as a distraction, slight as it might be. And, truly, I'm hoping the game is everything everybody else hopes for. :)

I've enjoyed your posts on the AE forum for years. I remember many conversations about how to make AE better. You were part of those discussions and had good, insightful opinions.

Let me suggest that your attention to detail and desire to make games better would be of great value here. Sure, I have the same reservations about a new game, but it's a GG game for Pete's sake. They are always the best 1.00, and after a few tweaks, they are outstanding. I'd like you to think about how you could help make WITW better. You think things through, don't get edgy with others (well, most of the time [;)]), and your opinions are always spot on.

I'd like you reconsider. I'm going to buy it myself as soon as I gather the necessary bucks together. I'd like to know that you're also here to make this thing "a keeper".



PzB74 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:27:06 PM)

I'm never in doubt about buying GG games, we've been having a great time together since "Warship" back in 85 and Ive never been dissappointed!
Family and a toddler keeps me from playing anything but the AI these days but, when PzB Jr is a bit older we will be returning with some AARs of our own - with tanks, can hardly wait [:D]

So gratz on another great release, will be a nice little Xmas treat [8D]



RedLancer -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:28:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Has anyone, in testing, finished a full game? When WITE was released, nobody even knew if the game could be played to completion because no one ever finished it.Of course there were all kinds of unknown problems.


This time we did. Although WitW has more functionality the scope is less - so it is quicker and perhaps easier to play.



vonRocko -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:32:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Has anyone, in testing, finished a full game? When WITE was released, nobody even knew if the game could be played to completion because no one ever finished it.Of course there were all kinds of unknown problems.


This time we did. Although WitW has more functionality the scope is less - so it is quicker and perhaps easier to play.


Great! Thanks Red Lancer



zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:32:45 PM)

easy is my middle name as i found WITE and still do too hard for the useless players like myself, so this seems to be more up my street with hand holding and AI doing some of the stuff for me if needed, i like that and need it most of the time[;)]



JiminyJickers -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 8:49:14 PM)

Aw man, the only reason I'm not buying this for a Christmas present for myself is that I really never played WitE properly, only a smaller scenario. I need to play that a lot more before I'm buying this one. Even though I prefer the Western setting.



Qwixt -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 9:09:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

easy is my middle name as i found WITE and still do too hard for the useless players like myself, so this seems to be more up my street with hand holding and AI doing some of the stuff for me if needed, i like that and need it most of the time[;)]


You know, that's exactly what I thought when watching the stream. Can offload some of the work load at the beginning while trying to learn the game. That's what is really drawing me to this game while deciding on WitP:AE.



Q-Ball -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 9:17:34 PM)


Play balance problems just inevitably pop-up from games of this complexity, particularly after it's released and inventive players figure out creative ways to "game" the system, whether it's CV Death Stars, Lvov pockets, Artillery/tank stacks, HQ chaining, run-away gambits, etc. No doubt within the first few months someone will be invading Denmark in 1943 or para-dropping on Berlin or :"death-bombing" the Reich or some sort of unforeseen gambit that requires further tweaking to balance out.

I'll still buy it, but I bet it takes awhile to work out the play balance kinks.......nature of the beast

WITP-AE is a 12-year old engine, and play balance is STILL being tinkered with.



Numdydar -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 9:21:13 PM)

As a long time WitP AE player, I can tell you WitW will be easier and a LOT less of a time sink than AE. A full campaign of AE can last about 1,400 turns if played to the end. Typical AE games last around 700 turns. Since each turn is one day [X(]

Compared to WitW which looks like around 120 turns since each turn is a week.

So it really depends on how much time you want to spend on a game. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE AE, but it has the biggest learning curve on any game I have ever played. If you have any doubts you can check out my production primer for Japan in AE http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605 While the Allies cannot change their production at all, it may give you a feel for the complexities of the game.



Qwixt -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (12/4/2014 9:22:34 PM)

I just want the game with the best single player experience between the two. No plans on PBEM.



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