RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (Full Version)

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zakblood -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/23/2015 3:13:18 PM)

no comment



bairdlander2 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/23/2015 3:45:19 PM)

2by3 is responding here and if you notice the new beta patch has dealt with a lot of issues re vp's,bugs etc.No new release is perfect and bug free.



carlkay58 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/23/2015 4:09:37 PM)

I was/am a playtester that worked on WitW from the beginning. At no time was there explicit pressure to not finish grand campaign scenarios and everyone that did finish and posted the results got good feedback from 2by3. The fact that the updates come weekly for testing does have a bearing on the completion rate however. If the new update changes/tweaks existing features that have an important bearing on the grand campaign then, as a playtester, you wonder if your time and effort should continue with the older code and finish the grand campaign or start over again with the new code and see what the changes do? I tended to start over again if there was any major changes in the base code for either the land or air mechanics. That allowed me to get to know how things flow in 1943 VERY well and I can spot what effects the new code has had on the overall process of the game during that time period. I did complete four different grand campaigns during my pre-release playtesting and each of them gave good data for 2by3 as to where the overall game was in different areas.

There were a few major changes that occurred right before the release that probably caused several of the large problems on release. I know that a few of the bugs that had been taken care of shortly before the release seemed to have surfaced again with the release. I also know that the VP system was in major flux during the weeks just before release - but the VP system core is solid it is just adjustments that will continue to be made by 2by3 as the product matures. We still have not finished that many campaigns as of yet for a true adjustment of VPs to take place. Too many games go for a bit and then one or the other drops out because of setbacks or bad player morale without continuing to see what could happen if you played it out. I am just as guilty of that as everyone else.

War in the West is a more complex game and situation than War in the East. You don't have the grand pocket forming offensives that WitE situation gives you and the air war at times eclipses the ground war in importance. The first half of WitW has the air war being more important than the ground war overall with most of the ground war being limited to the Italian campaign - a real slug fest on the ground. This makes WitE a much more attractive game to play and the types of players who will enjoy WitW over WitE are a different group.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/24/2015 11:04:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can there be such a game in WWII? Well yes, definitely and I simply fail to understand why war in the Mediterranean from 1940 hasn't been properly done - with a proper stab at what is an exceptionally interesting naval situation. There are also relatively small numbers of land units allowing a game at detailed level on land as well as at sea and in the air.

This would have to be a winner surely??



There have been appeals for a Med40 on game in WitP forums for ever, but I have always been very cool about a WitP engine Med... the ground combat game just isn't good enough. I think we have now got the jigsaw pieces for such a campaign... WitW ground/mainland combat/logistics, naval derived from WitP. I think that could work. Do I want it before WitE 2.0... not sure.



Mac Linehan -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/24/2015 6:12:49 PM)

Gents-

Just time for a quick comment. I have WitE and WitW, but all my time is spent playing WitP AE. Purchased WitW upon release and spent my two weeks of Christmas Vacation (Life is Good!) intensely studying the rules; and eventually playing the Cobra scenario.

I am a (very!) detailed kind of guy who will spend three or more hours immersed in a WitP AE turn; thus the level of detail in WitW is exactly what I wanted to see. The supply system design and implementation is absolutely outstanding. To put things into perspective, AE could really be called "Logistics in the Pacific"- if you don't master the logistical aspect of the game, all is lost.

Please consider, that the original WitP was released in 2004, AE followed in 2009. Since that point a steady flow of patches and modifications have turned AE into the finest Pacific War operational game- period. All of this takes time- I expect the WitW / E series to follow the same path.

Consider the improvements and changes that have occurred since WitE was released; I am utterly confident that 2by3 games will continue to Measure Up and improve both games; we are, in reference to AE, just after release in 2009.

2by3 is a very small team that produces some of the most exceptionally detailed, top notch monster games yet produced. It is humbling to think that the team not only supports their current projects (see the recent update for WitE); but will also find time (somehow) to prepare the next iteration of this series.

I have the utmost respect for the 2by3 Team, and a deep appreciation for those players on this forum who have far, far more experience than I with WitW and East. Your thoughts, opinions and comments do count and are important towards shaping future patches and releases. Periodically I will take a break from AE, and just want to play something that moves faster - WitW or WitE. The downside is that I am cursed with the "gotta read all the rules again"- but that then, is the price of excellence, the cost to squeeze the most out of each game. There is also this wonderful forum that will answer any question- in a very timely manner.

OK- all for now. Stick with it- each issue or concern will be dealt with; "Patience is a Virtue".

And:

HMSWarspite- great to see you, and other AEists (is that a real word? <grin>) on this forum.

Mac

“Every action done in company ought to be done with some sign of respect to those who are present”


Rule Number One from the 110 Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation, studied by George Washington from the Book “1776” by David McCullough




JayTac -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/25/2015 9:34:46 PM)

So which game would you guys recommend? AE or WitW? I'm mainly just looking for strategic depth.



marion61 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/25/2015 10:07:22 PM)

Get both! That way you don't have to choose![:D] I have poor impulse control myself when it comes to strategic games. AE is good, but it's very time consuming and it takes years to finish a MP game. WitW has a higher learning curve in some respects due to having evolved from AE, but if your looking for deep this is the game. The replayability for the allies is great, but the axis are sort of stuck responding to what the allies do. Once the balance issues with the EF box are better, I like what if scenarios, and the EF box can give you a pretty good punch, but it's like a candy store now that has no real cost until you pull the entire front.



rroberson -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/25/2015 11:38:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JayTac

So which game would you guys recommend? AE or WitW? I'm mainly just looking for strategic depth.



AE and it's not even close.

I have both, and I finally surrendered to WITW. Just didn't enjoy it. Back to WITPAE which is likely far more complicated and remains a much better playing experience.

Just one man's opinion.



RedLancer -> RE: Which Game? (5/26/2015 12:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JayTac

So which game would you guys recommend? AE or WitW? I'm mainly just looking for strategic depth.


Difficult question as although they are both extremely detailed wargames with 'Gary Grigsby's War in the ...' title with strategic depth you seek they are essentially quite different.

WitP:AE is a WEGO game with daily turns focused on naval combat in the Pacific with abstracted ground combat whereas WitW is an IGO:UGO game with weekly turns focused on ground combat in Europe with abstracted naval combat. Both have excellent air and logistics models that are tailored to support the key combat.

In WitP:AE you can change Japanese production. WitW has fixed production. WitP:AE is older and more polished. WitW is quicker.

Given the investment in time that is required to play either of them I would recommend the game that best reflects your interests - Ground, Naval, Japanese or German etc.



decourcy2 -> RE: Which Game? (5/26/2015 6:18:28 PM)

I prefer WitW. I worked on CHS and love the work we did on WitP but daily turns and by summer '42 Japan has no chance makes me uninterested in playing. I won two games as the Japanese in WitP and they were both Allied resignations where I feel they could have won.

WitW is not easy for the Axis but if you are smart and not defeatist, and use all weapons available to you fore one decisive attack can crush an Allied landing which could, and probably would, win the game for the Axis.



Seminole -> RE: Which Game? (5/26/2015 7:20:09 PM)

quote:

WitW is not easy for the Axis


It is interesting to see opinions so varied.
I would have thought most people view the game presently as tilted toward the Axis.



decourcy2 -> RE: Which Game? (5/26/2015 9:28:29 PM)

Seminole, I think the Allied player requires more skill and most of our playerbase is still acquiring that skill. I think when people learn how to use tactical bombers, naval bombers and TF's to their best advantage we will see this shift.



marion61 -> RE: Which Game? (5/26/2015 10:19:16 PM)

+2! (That mean's +1 twice D2)[:D]



HMSWarspite -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/27/2015 5:10:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: JayTac

So which game would you guys recommend? AE or WitW? I'm mainly just looking for strategic depth.



AE and it's not even close.

I have both, and I finally surrendered to WITW. Just didn't enjoy it. Back to WITPAE which is likely far more complicated and remains a much better playing experience.

Just one man's opinion.


Very very much depends. AE requires much more micromanagement, is much larger (and slower). If you find WitW complex and daunting, I would not touch AE if I were you.

To give an example - major invasion in WitW: 5 ampib TF, with 5 divisions (one each). An AS air directive, some GA ones, and a GS one. Some follow up troops and HQs. A couple of air drops. Maybe 25 'counters', and some air stuff. Prep is limited to setting amphib unit target, and waiting some turns.

Comparable invasion in AE: 5 amphib TFs, made up of transports for your 5 assault divs, and escorts (say 15 ships per TF, which you have to create). Follow up troops in maybe 5 more. Supply convoys for build up (bearing in mind daily turns). Then the covering forces, maybe 4-5 more carrier and battleship TFs. Then the air support, which you have to order by base (so basing is much more important than in WitW, where range is the only real issue assuming you have supplies, since coordination is automatic). Prep consists of getting all the ships to appropriate ports, with necessary supplies. Getting a/c ditto. Assault troops ditto. Probably hundreds of units in 25 TFs maybe...

AE is a different game, and anyone who can't cope with WitW will drown (big time). On the other hand, if you know the difference between a Dido, and a Town batch 3 (or even a 4 turret Dido and a 5 turret one), or the improvements made during Texas' major refit, or like to remember than you can't launch torpedo equipped air strikes from a base with an 'r' in the name unless the date is odd, AE wins straight off. (Joking! I just cant remember the base rules for stocking Torps offhand)

For strategic depth, I think it is easy not to be able to see the wood for the trees in AE, and mistakes in tactics/unit usage will tend to dominate over strategic brilliance. Having said which, lovely system, but then again, I know that the RN could only refuel ships via trailing hose until 1945 and hence is over rated for strategic reach in AE, so AE is not detailed enough for me! [;)]



76mm -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/27/2015 5:26:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite
Comparable invasion in AE: 5 amphib TFs, made up of transports for your 5 assault divs, and escorts (say 15 ships per TF, which you have to create). Follow up troops in maybe 5 more. Supply convoys for build up (bearing in mind daily turns). Then the covering forces, maybe 4-5 more carrier and battleship TFs. Then the air support, which you have to order by base (so basing is much more important than in WitW, where range is the only real issue assuming you have supplies, since coordination is automatic). Prep consists of getting all the ships to appropriate ports, with necessary supplies. Getting a/c ditto. Assault troops ditto. Probably hundreds of units in 25 TFs maybe...


Note to self: never, EVER, buy WitP...

I wish I could find a game that I could play for years with utter enjoyment, but it doesn't sound like WitP is it!



carlkay58 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/28/2015 9:32:05 PM)

HMSWarspite - a nice list for the WitW invasion except you forgot the Naval Interdiction missions. Forget those and go home cause the Axis are going to push you back into the sea.

WitP AE is a higher detail oriented game than WitW (yes, hard to believe for some). If you are just starting into these types of games - go War in the West first. If you like it and find it becomes 'too easy' after you are familiar with it, then get WitP AE. I have both and they both do a great job of scratching my operational/strategic decision itch but WitW is a MUCH faster game to play!



HMSWarspite -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/29/2015 5:14:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

HMSWarspite - a nice list for the WitW invasion except you forgot the Naval Interdiction missions. Forget those and go home cause the Axis are going to push you back into the sea.

WitP AE is a higher detail oriented game than WitW (yes, hard to believe for some). If you are just starting into these types of games - go War in the West first. If you like it and find it becomes 'too easy' after you are familiar with it, then get WitP AE. I have both and they both do a great job of scratching my operational/strategic decision itch but WitW is a MUCH faster game to play!



Yep, it's a fair cop, I did. Don't go anywhere without a few NI, unless you really are in your own back yard and auto patrol will do it (I can get 2/3 of the Western Med at 3+ NI on auto - but GE can always create a little hot spot if you don't sock them in with a specific NI or 2.



JayTac -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/29/2015 10:01:26 PM)

Thanks for the feedback and sorry to derail the thread a bit. But, at least something positive came of it as I ended up buying WitP AE. I gotta say though that I'm a little disappointed in the level of control over the combat. I can't prioritize targets, there's minimal control over subs from what I can tell, no smoke screens, no formations, can't run simultaneous recons or CAP at multiple altitudes with the same aircraft. Among other things makes me feel like I'm stuck handling all of the logistics while the AI handles the more glamorous parts. Still a fun game though, the grand strategical elements are definitely interesting.



STEF78 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/30/2015 10:50:40 AM)

For 30 years, I've bought most of Gary Grigsby's wargames.

I didn't bought WITP, maybe should I give it a try.

WITE is my best wargame ever bought. I spent thousands of hours on it.

I bought WITW in february, worked the rules, played twice Cobra and gave up.... I didn't find the fun I immediatly got in WITE.

Now I'm back on WITE.

But I will always thank 2by3 for the work they do on their different games (new or released for years)

Stef



JayTac -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (5/31/2015 3:30:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

Get both! That way you don't have to choose![:D] I have poor impulse control myself when it comes to strategic games. AE is good, but it's very time consuming and it takes years to finish a MP game. WitW has a higher learning curve in some respects due to having evolved from AE, but if your looking for deep this is the game. The replayability for the allies is great, but the axis are sort of stuck responding to what the allies do. Once the balance issues with the EF box are better, I like what if scenarios, and the EF box can give you a pretty good punch, but it's like a candy store now that has no real cost until you pull the entire front.



Well I held out for a bit, but I bought both now [:D]
Really enjoying WitW, the logistics system might be a bit straight forward in comparison to AE, but the strategical elements are just as good.



cfulbright -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (6/1/2015 6:26:52 AM)

WITP AE is a game you can play for years. It may not be to your taste, but if it is, you can drown in it.

Cary



Toby42 -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (6/1/2015 1:15:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

WITP AE is a game you can play for years. It may not be to your taste, but if it it, you can drown in it.

Cary


I'm drowning in this game. Way too much detail for me! WitE I love and can get along with it very well. Oh well, you never know until you try?



Sardaukar -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (6/1/2015 6:33:11 PM)

Well..just a minor thing, but in WitP-AE you can select 1-3 day turns. I usually play with 2-day turns against AI.



Dante Fierro -> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) (6/1/2015 10:07:10 PM)

I have purchased both AE & WitW and I am waiting a bit for some of the problems to be ironed out with WitW, plus I just am more interested in the pacific theater right now than the western theater.

I like the details in both games, the ambitious level of scope, and the obvious amount of dedication and work that was put into both games by the developers.

I find myself oddly though, liking the interface for AE more than WitW. Even though both games depend on large databases of detail and textual lists for play, for some reason the right hand side-panel interface to WitW, and some other interface details for accessing information and elements of play (especially the air game), I found so frustrating I put the game away after a few weeks of examination, and decided to return to AE - the interface of which seems more natural to me (for the time being).






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