RE: Thoughts on Fortifications

RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (Full Version)

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GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/2/2015 3:34:09 PM)
Alright, so I did check the movement points listed in the manual and theoretically a human opponent could just barely have pulled off the move the computer made with the HG panzer division. 5 hex's over rough terrain and 2 over clear terrain in the mud on Italian roads.... so it's not a blatant cheat at least... which leaves me with some issues about unsatisfying design from a play perspective....... - I still say fortifications are too impervious to damage, especialy air and heavy artillery. When you have something like a 4 strength unit on offense have over 150 CV on defense and only in a level 3 Fort that's crazy... it makes for a replay of WWI not WWII and sucks from a player enjoyment factor. - You should be able to hit Forts from the air in the Air Execution phase (and frankly with Artillery bombardments too) in order to try to degrade them BEFORE committing to a full scale ground assault. That would be important from just a resource usage perspective but becomes CRITICAL due to the huge VP loss the Allies suffer for casualties. An allied commander should have some option to evaluate whether Artillery/Air has damaged the Forts to a reasonable degree before plunging all his forces head-long into a full scale frontal assault... right now the only way to even try to degrade Forts is 1 full scale assault after another with no player control about calling the infantry off if the Forts obviously haven't been softened up by bombardment. - A unit shouldn't be able to expend it's full movement and enjoy the full benefits of the fortifications it's moving into. This would solve alot of the "warp from one side of the line to another" issue which is very unsatisfying from a play perspective. A unit that has just executed a full march and is just putting it's troops in place wouldn't enjoy the same benefits from one that has sat tight and adjusted it's troops for optimal benefit from the defenses. I realize we are dealing with week long turns and a U-go/I-go system but there have to be some gameplay compromises to compensate for the lack of granularity in that. It's not like, given the current rules an attacker could time his assault to take advantage of a changing out of the guard and units switching positions. There should be some benefit for a defender sitting tight and holding position as opposed to playing leap frog. - Likewise a unit in full contact with the enemy and under repeated assault shouldn't have the same capacity to rebuild defenses that one sitting behind the lines and not needing to worry about getting fired upon would. It doesn't make sense and it's a horrible game-play mechanic. As an attacker, you need to at least be able to slowly degrade defensive positions over time...if you have the air power and artillery to continously pound them...yes, the defender should be able to fall back to a second line right behind the first.. - Finally the AI on "easy" or "normal" settings shouldn't be playing it's best game. It certainly shouldn't have the rapid and aggressive response to invasions that it seems to.... and it should be making mistakes in how it redresses it's line or arranges counter-attacks on a not too infrequent basis for the player to take advantage of.... that's the whole point of difficulty settings.... to allow the player who wants an easier game to make some mistakes and recover from them... right now, it seems the only ways to do that are pretty gamey. I get that the AI on more difficult settings should present the best challenge it can..... and I get that you guys who have been playing beta for years and know the game engine inside and out....and have probably been playing the series for decades can beat the AI blind-folded... but I think you maybe forget that folks brand new to the game and the series want something they can play as a learning game to get familiar with the series and the engine a bit without banging their head into a brick wall. It's tough enough just getting used to how the interfaces and rules work (and I've been playing wargames for decades... Advanced Squad Leader anyone.... so it's not like I can't do the grognard thing) without having to choose between "really frustrating", "really, really frustrating" and "impossibly frustrating" for an AI opponent when they are actualy labeled "easy" and "normal" P.S. If you still want me to post a save... let me know.

LiquidSky -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/2/2015 8:38:42 PM)
Play the Breakout and Pursuit scenario. Just the first turn. Try different air doctrines, pump the divisions full of support units. You will be surprised at how easy it is to get through those level 2 and 3 forts with the proper application of force. Fly maximum Recon on the hexes on and around where you are going to attack. You need to bomb the units you are going to attack. Interdict the hex and hexes behind you are going to attack. Air superiority over the hexes you are going to interdict and attack to prevent the enemy from doing same. Ground support air for the attack. 3 support units in every division that is attacking. Unit integrity: All units attacking part of the same Corp HQ or at least Army HQ. Fly Air Transports to make sure all your units have maximum supplies for next turn. Make sure those bombing runs are at max missions per day, and every day. They will have time to rest when your troops are resting. Don't be afraid to bomb units with multiple missions. Check that your Corp commander is decent on attacking with mech and/or infantry. I look at a fixed position as a chance for my troops and air force to rest up so I can apply sudden overwhelming force.

Peltonx -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/3/2015 1:10:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel quote: ORIGINAL: Baelfiin Heavy artillery and engineers will reduce them, are they being committed in your ground battles? Yes, on every single attack. I've got the entire Tactical Air Force on Ground Support (and the entire 15th Air Force is assigned to Ground Strike the same hex in the Air Phase) most divisions have a combat engineer attached ... the symbol shows in the attack box.... and Corps and Army HQ's have artillery units attached and are near the Front Line.... I generaly massively outnumber the amount of tubes the enemy has committed to a fight. I do tend to budge the Fort Levels a little but with such full scale assault...but it's like .02 or .04 on each attack....maybe if I get really lucky I'll move it .4 or something like that but the enemy rebuilds it something like .5 on each turn....and if it does get weakened, they instantly warp in the HG and another heavy unit (I think an SS PzGr division) from 1 spot in the line to another... no matter how far away they are... so the weakened spot becomes kinda unassailable...I face something like a 200+ defensive CV in that hex the next turn. That's completely unrealistic.... (and unsatisfying gameplay) no way a defender should be able to maintain fort levels in a hex that is subject to repeated heavy bombing and artillery strikes..... Heck, you should be able to knock out Fort levels just from repeated bombing alone....without even committing a ground attack.... and certainly as a prelude to a ground attack. Your problem is 15.3.2.6 Chances are your combat odds are horrible, les then 1 to 2 odds or worse. I am not having issues dropping fort levels. Also leaders are the key to ground combat. You can have more planes, tanks, men ect ect and still loss because of poor leadership rolls. This is a very much over looked part of WitW along with unit morale.

Baelfiin -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/3/2015 2:56:43 AM)
Pelton speaks truth. Would like to see some of your combat reports maybe see what is happening, loadouts on your bombers etc. Im not having any problems clearing forts one hex at a time in Italy, but it takes an all out effort. Disruptions are the key sometimes, and it may take more than one attack in a turn to clear a particularly nasty hex, especially if its defended by high morale troops.

Peltonx -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/4/2015 6:12:49 PM)
Son you simply lake the skills. I could post 20+ pictures but I am fighting 5 game WitW and 2 WitE so I am kinda busy, but I post 4 just because I like showing off my skills. [image]local://upfiles/20387/339D2CF7760340D9B6ED74C93B1ABF01.jpg[/image]

Peltonx -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/4/2015 6:13:17 PM)
2 [image]local://upfiles/20387/1997BF8216B647D18AE0F050099FE0D7.jpg[/image]

Peltonx -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/4/2015 6:13:41 PM)
3 [image]local://upfiles/20387/604B6894E28F463A8651E95D22CD8806.jpg[/image]

Peltonx -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/4/2015 6:14:31 PM)
ect ect 20+ more but back to fighting. That's all from 1 game, so dropping forts is easy IF you do it right. [sm=happy0029.gif] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6On497eUSc&list=PLYFi9ZHcAOl_5KSmnojBPKP64QQycddo8&index=64 [image]local://upfiles/20387/6B24020E8AA243CE86A84BE0EC392C46.jpg[/image]

HMSWarspite -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/5/2015 8:54:33 AM)
We also need to consider historical experience on attacking fortifications. WW1 (and WW2) showed that artillery is remarkably bad at attacking dug in enemy. You need huge amounts to do things, the majority of the effects are morale/fatigue rather than death and destruction. The only real way to neutralise fortifications is to make small (in game hex terms) advances to deprive the defender of the ground that is fortified, which is best done with tactical (observed) shoots in support of immediate attacks. There are almost no cases of the entrenchment or bunker being destroyed in quantity. . Thus the lack of Ww1 style preparatory bombardments is not at issue. They achieved little. On the second issue, taking over fortifications, I do not see an issue here. Light (level 1) don't take long to create anyway. Heavier ones will still be there, and assuming they were competently designed to begin with, will be optimised for terrain. Tidyingup a trench is much faster than digging from scratch. The lack of familiarity with terrain is easily fixed by use of advanced parties... 1 man per company for a day hand over and most info is preserved.

GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 5:54:47 PM)
Pelton, - Yes my problem is that my combat odds are horrible. No way with stacking limitations I can pack enough troops into 2 or even 3 hex's to get better then 1 to 1 odds against units who have CV's of over 200. - Yes, I have lousy skills at WitW, I'm SUPPOSED to have lousy skills, it's my first game ever in the WitW/WitE series. I'm not embarrassed by that. That's what playing an EASY level game against the AI is supposed to be about...learning to play the system. Essentially you are telling someone that the first time they pick up a golf club they are going to end up way above par... no kidding. It doesn't, however, disqualify me from making comments about how the game plays... particulary if the Developers are ever interested in getting someone NEW to their series to play their games and buy their products... a fresh perspective from a new player can be informative in that regards.... and it's not like I'm brand new to wargames...I've played a ton, even designed some popular scenario's... just not ever played THIS one. - I'll note, however, that all your pic's involve you as the Axis player counter-attacking an Allied player that has landed a beachhead in clear terrain, WAY up the Italian coast. Kind of apples and oranges to my situation. HMSWarspite, - I'm going to respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I can offer tons of examples but the best example is that WWII didn't end in a stale-mate. We did beat our way up the Italian Peninsula, slowly but we did. We did breach the Atlantic Wall. We did break the Axis defenses in Cobra, we did breach the Siegfried Line, we did cross the Rhine, etc. The Allies (and frankly the Axis too) didn't put a ton of resources into artillery support and air-power (and armor) because a simple trench line was impervious to them and could defeat them. They did it because sufficient air and artillery concentration could blast away pretty much any fixed defenses.... certainly ones that could be constructed in only a couple weeks.... and allow assaults against them to work. If you are trying to tell me that it couldn't and didn't happen....then I'm not quite sure what to say. Edit: And as to the lack of preparatory bombardments in WWII, I'll simply provide the following citation describing the bombardment proceeding the COBRA offensive.... "Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. L� area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd � 2,200 yd (5,500 m � 2,000 m) area on the Saint-L��Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack...."

Smirfy -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 7:33:47 PM)
Yup just reading about a RA battery of 8 gun firing 21,000 shells from when it landed in Normandy to July 22th. I Remember reading Horrocks memoirs years back and his story of capturing Mount Pincon and I googled it to see if I could find on line. Basically anytime an attack was held up they brought down the fire of the AGRA, 300 guns in all and flattened the area.

SigUp -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 7:52:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel Edit: And as to the lack of preparatory bombardments in WWII, I'll simply provide the following citation describing the bombardment proceeding the COBRA offensive.... "Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. L� area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd � 2,200 yd (5,500 m � 2,000 m) area on the Saint-L��Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack...." And if you go further in your Wikipedia quotation you'll discover that... "By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line.[79] Although no serious opposition was forecast,[80] the remnants of Bayerlein′s Panzer Lehr�consisting of roughly 2,200 men and 45 armored vehicles[71]�had regrouped and were prepared to meet the advancing U.S. troops, and to the west of Panzer Lehr the German 5th Parachute Division had escaped the bombing almost intact.[80] Collins' VII Corps were quite disheartened to meet fierce enemy artillery fire,[81] which they expected to have been suppressed by the bombing.[81] Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]�VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]"

Smirfy -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 8:10:15 PM)
The view from the other side of the hill is interesting "It is immaterial whether such a bomb carpet catches good troops or bad they are more or less annihilated" Von Kluge Interestingly as well, in under one game turn Bradley had broken through and broken out.

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 8:21:57 PM)
If your having trouble getting high enough combat odd, this would be my suggestion. First prep your air and interdict his supplies and movement. This could take a few turns, but once your ready, even with just six divisions in a two hex attack, assign all the divisions (make sure the divisions have 3 su's each) to one corps with the best ground rating, make sure they have plenty of arty, and if they are in Italy, mtn arty and hvy arty are helpful in corps. You may not crack them the 1st week, and you may not crack them the 2nd week, but if you have set it up right, he'll have to keep rotating fresh units in from elsewhere, weakening that area. He can't have high CV everywhere, so mass for your attack in that area your going to hit and not the 200cv area.

GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 8:47:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp quote: ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel Edit: And as to the lack of preparatory bombardments in WWII, I'll simply provide the following citation describing the bombardment proceeding the COBRA offensive.... "Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. L� area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd � 2,200 yd (5,500 m � 2,000 m) area on the Saint-L��Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack...." And if you go further in your Wikipedia quotation you'll discover that... "By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line.[79] Although no serious opposition was forecast,[80] the remnants of Bayerlein′s Panzer Lehr�consisting of roughly 2,200 men and 45 armored vehicles[71]�had regrouped and were prepared to meet the advancing U.S. troops, and to the west of Panzer Lehr the German 5th Parachute Division had escaped the bombing almost intact.[80] Collins' VII Corps were quite disheartened to meet fierce enemy artillery fire,[81] which they expected to have been suppressed by the bombing.[81] Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]�VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]" Reading is fundamental, look at the full statement from where you took the quote... - "By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line" The German fortifications were sufficiently nullified to allow the Allied infantry to pass the initial defenses without opposition. "Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]�VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]" - There were some surviving troops and surviving strong-points. No one expects even concentrated artillery and air to destroy every last man, tank, gun and strongpoint. What it means is that it was significantly reduced not completely destroyed by the bombardment. To Lehr's immense credit it didn't break and rout where alot of other units might have. They doesn't translate to bombardment ineffective. - Collins Corps gained 2,000 meters in 1 day. Not a break-through but in a game where each hex is around 10 miles and turns are 1 week long....that translates to pushing the defender out of the hex, even if subsequent attacks gained ground at no greater rate. However, subsequently we have this... "However, if the first day's results had been disappointing, General Collins found cause for encouragement; although the Germans were fiercely holding their positions, these did not seem to form a continuous line and were susceptible to being outflanked or bypassed." and later "By 28 July, the German defenses across the U.S. front had largely collapsed under the full weight of VII and VIII Corps' advance, and resistance was disorganised and patchy.[83] VIII Corps' 4th Armored Division�entering combat for the first time�captured Coutances but met stiff opposition east of the town,[83] and U.S. units penetrating into the depth of the German positions were variously counterattacked by elements of the 2nd SS Panzer, 17th SS Panzergrenadier, and 353rd Infantry Divisions, all seeking to escape entrapment.[84] A desperate counterattack was mounted against the 2nd Armored Division by German remnants, but this was a disaster and the Germans abandoned their vehicles and fled on foot.[84] An exhausted and demoralized Bayerlein reported that his Panzer Lehr Division was "finally annihilated", with its armor wiped out, its personnel either casualties or missing, and all headquarters records lost." Reminder.... turn equals 1 week, scale equals 10 mile hex's. By the scale the game is operating under, the bombardment did it's job in neutralizing the effectiveness of the initial German defensive positions and allowing the Allied infantry to pass them and press the attack, followed up by armor. Even if they hadn't advanced at a greater rate then the until days, the attack was effective.

SigUp -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 8:57:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy Interestingly as well, in under one game turn Bradley had broken through and broken out. Yeah, and for the previous seven game turns they barely managed to gain three game hexes or so. quote: ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel ... And that Wikipedia article also said that the German defenses there were lacking in depth. Fact is, by then the German units were severely exhausted and lacked replacements all over the place. The units standing in Normandy at the end of July weren't the same units standing there in the first week of June. Panzer Lehr didn't get reduced from 15.000 to 2.000 men in a single bombardment. And this kind of attrition is very well possible in WitW. Just switch sides and watch heavy interdiction supported battles attrite your units in a few turns. Fortification level 3 doesn't matter much in the long run if in every battle 95% of your elements are disrupted and per turn - even while winning all the defensive battles - the ready TOE elements decline by 10-20%.

Smirfy -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 9:12:41 PM)
I make it about 32-34 hexs in Game terms before Cobra, go ahead count them.

SigUp -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 9:30:55 PM)
You mean to say the Anglo-Americans managed 340 miles from D-Day to Cobra? I thought Cobra was breaking out of Normandy and not breaking the Westwall. [:D] Jokes aside, I don't know why you are harking on Cobra. Fire up the Breakout and Pursuit scenario and see how simple it is to break the German lines. Just tested this out myself. Didn't really play seriously, just grabbed units as I saw fit and smacked every German unit in the American sector north of Avranches. Could have been a clean breakthrough probably if I actually planned the air phase and the ground combat. German reserve activation didn't even matter for the most part and the losses were hideous for them with 28.000 compared to the Allied 6.500. [image]http://s23.postimg.org/xd4ya21nf/test1.jpg[/image] [image]http://s4.postimg.org/46tdvrupp/test2.jpg[/image]

GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 9:39:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meklore61 If your having trouble getting high enough combat odd, this would be my suggestion. First prep your air and interdict his supplies and movement. This could take a few turns, but once your ready, even with just six divisions in a two hex attack, assign all the divisions (make sure the divisions have 3 su's each) to one corps with the best ground rating, make sure they have plenty of arty, and if they are in Italy, mtn arty and hvy arty are helpful in corps. You may not crack them the 1st week, and you may not crack them the 2nd week, but if you have set it up right, he'll have to keep rotating fresh units in from elsewhere, weakening that area. He can't have high CV everywhere, so mass for your attack in that area your going to hit and not the 200cv area. Meklore, Here's what happens. If I weaken a hex in an attack (or multiple attacks per turn), the AI simply shifts the HG Panzer Division (and another strong unit, I think usualy a PzGr Division) into that location from whatever location it occupied elsewhere in the line. This happens no matter the weather, no matter the the ground conditions and no matter the terrain it has to move into over, and despite the fact that I am flying interdiction in that area. It gets there with perfect combat readiness and no fatigue for it's movement....I've seen it even shift into mountain terrain in this manner. It gets there, enjoys the full CV boost of the fortifications and because the Fort levels haven't been reduced by more then .5 in the assaults (or close enough) it completely rebuilds the Fortification level in that hex upto maximum. It makes that hex unassailable. Meanwhile my divisions are exhausted from the assaults and I'm unable to shift forces around without suffering fatigue and significant readiness loss like the A.I. does (even though it's not flying a single plane for interdiction. I'm basicaly trying to play whack-a-mole with the "weak spot" (if you can even call a 100 CV value "weak") against an A.I. that can out-shift me with no readiness loss and with Forts that can only be dented and are pretty much instantly rebuilt to full strength. This is ignoring the HUGE VP penalty they allies pay for making these sort of heavy attrition attacks.... and against an AI that is supposed to be on "Easy" (maybe "Normal" but definately not harder then that). After about 20 turns of playing in that situation... the A.I. eventualy made a mistake in the placement of 1 of it's units occupying the line (that it really didn't have any reason to make)...and I got a break with something like "only" a 60 CV defense to attack. I cheated and after about 2 dozen replays of the same attack in the same turn, I finally got a result that defeated the hex (and most importantly allowed the enemy Fort level to be destroyed). I moved the best shape mobile units I had in there and set everything else to reserve and saved the game. The A.I. promptly moved the HG Panzer (and some other units) across the map and staged a deliberate attack.... I cheated again and after only about a dozen replays of the same turn I was able to get a defense that held. From there I have been able to slowly and with vast loss of VP's gain a hex or 2. I did a landing in May in Brittany around the St. Malo area with all the TF's pulled from the Med. and the 2 US ones arrived from Europe and the 8 fully beefed up Divisions I could fit on them... along with 2 Divisions plus a couple regiments air dropped. In the A.I's turn I got to see an insane number of Panzer divisions appear (I saw someone do a similar post to the invasion response elsewhere) show up in full fighting trim and even do a deliberate attack that took 1 beach-head from the Canadians. 3 cheers for the 101st Airborne who held off a similar assault in front of the US beaches. This despite the fact that I have the entire 8th and 9th Airforces interdicting the area at high intensity, RAF Bomber Command doing the same on DAY missions (Night seems to not be too effective)... RAF 2nd Tac was reserved for Ground Support of the invading forces. Fighter Command is doing Air Superiority Missions over the Area and Coastal is on Naval Patrol there..... and barely an Axis plane is flying due to previous degradation of their airfields. This again on "EASY" or "NORMAL" setting. Needless to say, I put the game on the shelf in frustration after this. Taking a break from it to play other things, maybe I'll come back once the frustration fades... maybe not. One thing I do note is that my interdiction doesn't seem to be working as well as it seems like it should. I'm only getting 0's, 1's, 2's and maybe a couple 3's over the areas I'm trying to interdict....this despite basicaly having every plane in England that is capable of doing so fly this (or Ground Support)...; no matter what the size of the target boxes seem to be set and...and using HIGH intensity. I'm nowhere (over land) getting the 8's and 9's that others seem to be reporting. I am getting 8's and 9's over sea hex's when flying Naval Patrol.... but not by aircraft flying interdiction over land hex'..... maybe there is some sort of special, hidden "yes I really want to interdict" checkbox that everbody else knows about that I'm missing.

SigUp -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 9:54:44 PM)
If you are saying you can't get high interdiction values in the mountains of Italy, it's one thing. That you say you can't get it in France is strange. That's what I just managed with a couple of mouseclicks when I did that little Cobra test: [image]http://s13.postimg.org/xo6dm67pj/test.jpg[/image]

GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 10:18:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp If you are saying you can't get high interdiction values in the mountains of Italy, it's one thing. That you say you can't get it in France is strange. That's what I just managed with a couple of mouseclicks when I did that little Cobra test: [image]http://s13.postimg.org/xo6dm67pj/test.jpg[/image] Yes, I'm saying I can't get those for France....using pretty much every plane that is availble in England in the '43 scenario doing a May '44 invasion.... I'm getting 1's and 2's and a few 3's nothing higher.

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 10:29:20 PM)
I just invaded on a server game, west of Avaranches. I'll take a screen shot for you. You won't get 8's and 9's by only having one AD over the target area. They require overlapping, making sure your using the right load outs, and if your interdicting you need RECON!!! If your recon values in a hex are low, you'll never see 8's and 9's over land, no matter how many planes you throw at it. Recon the areas your wanting to raise interdiction in, set the recon to take interdiction photos, then send in the bombs. It works brother, trust me [;)]. I see you got a screen shot already. I hope this all helps.

Smirfy -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 10:49:06 PM)
How about a couple of screenshots for the loadouts and settings for the recon and ground attack aircrft. That would be a great help

Kumppi -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 10:51:27 PM)
I'm still trying to get to grips with interdiction. Why does it make a difference if you put in one AD over the target area with 200 planes or 2 ADs with 100 planes each?

SigUp -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/6/2015 11:00:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smirfy How about a couple of screenshots for the loadouts and settings for the recon and ground attack aircrft. That would be a great help Can't tell you about any loadouts or settings for the aircraft. As I said, I just ran a quick demonstration, so I just used the default settings. Set GS to low, GA to the highest with only interdiction checked and let the AI run the directives. Then I just pulled the area definition of 8th Airforce, 9th Airforce and the RAF Tactical one together with a 2 hex range placed in the middle between the frontline and Avranches. Took me a minute to set it up. [image]http://s3.postimg.org/c0o8xbqnn/test1.jpg[/image] Here's a screen showing the air directives. As can be seen, 8th, 9th Airforce and RAF Tactical have the same area definition - interdict the hell out of the German units in the American sector. [image]http://s21.postimg.org/lapeeznbr/test2.jpg[/image] Recon level

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/7/2015 12:21:30 AM)
This is a load out for your shorter ranged recon. Short range recon I use low level cameras. Always tack on extra fuel tanks if you can get it in the load out. More flights, mean better recon values. To get high interdiction values you need recon planes with low level cameras, set to target interdiction and railways (and whatever else you want to set). The more types of targets you set, the less time they can photograph each. [image]local://upfiles/39603/8581196C24C4414AA9E02D4B0695725B.jpg[/image]

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/7/2015 12:22:08 AM)
Camera Targets [image]local://upfiles/39603/7205A4AD9E214A039DD0133458EB79C7.jpg[/image]

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/7/2015 12:22:51 AM)
Set Airgroups [image]local://upfiles/39603/82A35BEADAA345BD8D23E21434E011BC.jpg[/image]

marion61 -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/7/2015 12:26:11 AM)
And this is the recon air directive set for flying 6 days (gotta rest the pilots). You have enough recon planes to do two recon missions. Normally I set the other planes with high level cameras and do strategic recon. The bombing of the Reich doesn't stop just because of a little battle. [image]local://upfiles/39603/2EBC47513DD64ECAAB582657668FD2F3.jpg[/image]

GrumpyMel -> RE: Thoughts on Fortifications (1/7/2015 1:37:45 AM)
So here is what I'm getting. This is from the results of the Air Execution Phase for the turn of the invasion (invasion took place in Axis logistics phase) with the interdiction levels and AD's turned on. [image]local://upfiles/27684/94EA8AAC1D14495BB61A8CA0D0E54AF7.jpg[/image]

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