How to plan the Japanese economy (Full Version)

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SigUp -> How to plan the Japanese economy (1/13/2015 9:12:04 PM)

Having the game for nearly a year now I'd like to start a campaign game with the Japanese side against the AI some day in the near future. The biggest roadblock to this, however, is the Japanese economy. I know there are a couple of excellent guides out there and I also have the tracker set up, but a question I have is, how exactly do people plan the economy (method-wise)? E.g. how to plan the amount of planes of which type (intending to go for PDU on here just to mention it) to produce each month. Or determining which industries to shut down / expand.



Encircled -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/13/2015 10:03:50 PM)

You really need to read Mike Sollis AAR to give you an idea how to do it.

I'd just start one off and see how you get on, as its better to learn the mistakes in a practice game first!



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/13/2015 10:28:29 PM)

Here's a primer that's worth reading, in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

I don't agree with everything in it but it should be helpful. By Numdydar



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/13/2015 10:53:51 PM)

Otherwise, I would say concentrate on engines. You will never have enough Ha-35s; increase production (double or something like that). The Tony in my experience is not a good performer. You can cancel the engine that is only made for it. There are a number of engines which you should not continue to mfg.. But don't waste the inventory you have, pick something to build using them. For instance, build all the Glens you can from the engine inventory you have; they can be used with the subs that can deploy them, be used in training squadrons or be the search planes on your cruisers. Build Babs (army), you'll need them. After that get prepared for turning out a large number of Tojos and the engine they use. Also, the Oscar IIa and IIb are quite useful but you may be able to stop Oscar Ic before the IIas are available. I generally concentrate on Jakes and Daves, but Alf's are something to consider. Keep producing the two IJN transports (Tina and Mavis) but in small numbers. Keep producing IJA transports, I'd go with Thalia in the first year or so.

One thing to always keep in mind when making these decisions, you can't afford a lot of attrition of IJN air crews of any type. I advise preparing IJA air crews and the planes they will need to take over (as much as they can) functions like Naval search, recon and ASW work. Your carrier units, or rather the carriers themselves will benefit from DB and TB crews who are trained in ASW at least into the '50s in skill level; but don't use IJN units to specialize in ASW from land bases, the IJA should be handling that.



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 12:29:38 AM)

I did planning at first, down to the number and kind of ship hauling what from where. Nowadays, I just wing it. What happens in the game outside of the economy has such an impact on the end of it anyway.

I use Tracker. Oil, Fuel, Resources - good. Bring those back. Make sure you are using region definitions. I use Kull's. I make sure that my numbers in Japan are trending upwards for Oil/Fuel/Resources, as much as possible. Or at least trending downwards at a slow enough rate that I'll last long enough to meet my goals.

Goals: I do some rough math on how much of each I am expecting to be able to get back to Japan, and how long that will last me at current levels of production. That's it. It can be more or less complicated than that, depending on your preference and desire to dig into the numbers. Your goals can be whatever you want them to be. Work up how many aircraft you expect to need, find out how much HI that will cost, and plan accordingly.



Numdydar -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 2:17:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a primer that's worth reading, in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

I don't agree with everything in it but it should be helpful. By Numdydar


So you do not agree with the way the game works or you do not agree with how I wrote it [:)] Inquiring minds want to know [:D]



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 3:47:42 AM)

quote:

You really need to read Mike Sollis AAR to give you an idea how to do it.


Absolutely.

quote:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605


I have relied on this too. Its now heavily modified for my own playstyle.

quote:

Keep producing IJA transports, I'd go with Thalia in the first year or so.


I prefer the Topsy as the Thalia uses the Ha-35 engine, and there's just too much demand early on to use them for a transport. At least in my games.[:D]

quote:

I make sure that my numbers in Japan are trending upwards for Oil/Fuel/Resources, as much as possible.


Supplies, don't forget supplies.[:-] This won't be possible early on, but should be after a few months. Again, at least in my games.[:'(]




tigercub -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 6:59:46 AM)

a Tip i use on Ha-35 engine factory if you change a older type engine factory not in use over to the Ha-35 engine this will increase the rate they repair rate by 100% instead of just making one large factory.

I keep them to around 30 as I plan to change these later again in the war to improve repair rates on other needed engines.

Tiger



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 12:05:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

You really need to read Mike Sollis AAR to give you an idea how to do it.


Absolutely.

quote:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605


I have relied on this too. Its now heavily modified for my own playstyle.

quote:

Keep producing IJA transports, I'd go with Thalia in the first year or so.


I prefer the Topsy as the Thalia uses the Ha-35 engine, and there's just too much demand early on to use them for a transport. At least in my games.[:D]

quote:

I make sure that my numbers in Japan are trending upwards for Oil/Fuel/Resources, as much as possible.


Supplies, don't forget supplies.[:-] This won't be possible early on, but should be after a few months. Again, at least in my games.[:'(]




I almost went into supplies... but decided that it was Part 2 and had as much to do with operations and strategy as with the economy. For my part, I just make sure I have plenty at the front for a while. I don't worry about the levels in Japan until later - it's easier to ship your supplies to the front earlier, before the USN subs get plentiful and effective, and you don't need them in your inner perimeter until later. So, I keep track of Global supply levels in Tracker (which has some "squish" to it, I've noticed, but not too much) as well as keeping an eye on the levels for the Japan region. I may sure I have enough spread around for factory repairs, but don't worry about maintaining a certain minimum level until mid-1943.



Dili -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 2:24:56 PM)

Against AI don't sweat it. You just need to not increase production everywhere to not put you on the ground with lack of supply. Then keep managing. You will make mistakes and somehow you'll have a 200 engines that you'll not end up using but that was made as an allowance if things turn ugly... In short you'll have to react to how the game is going, if your carriers get bad luck and you have to increase construction speed of others in pipeline or more long range planes then all things can change. Make only frontline LCU's get updates and replacements. Think that you can lost 200 aircraft and pilots in a day naval battle at start and more in later war and you need to have replacements.

But conquering the relevant places in time and keep the resources and oil going to Japan, are the two most important things.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 9:30:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

a Tip i use on Ha-35 engine factory if you change a older type engine factory not in use over to the Ha-35 engine this will increase the rate they repair rate by 100% instead of just making one large factory.

I keep them to around 30 as I plan to change these later again in the war to improve repair rates on other needed engines.

Tiger


I do something similar, but there's still too much demand with the early increases in Zero and Oscar production. Its just too hard for me to keep up and in my current game I ran out of Ha-35's for a short period (because I was producing Kate2's). So, for me at least Thalia and Kate2 aren't produced early. LIke Mike Solli I will use the engines available for the Kate1 and produce the 2's later. Now he does it to save HI which it will by using the engine stock of Ha-whatever the Kate1 uses. I like the savings of Ha-35's though and that's the main reason I do it, and yes I know its gonna cost me supplies to bulid the Kate factory back up as I don't think its a simple upgrade. The Thalia I don't produce because there's just not enough difference between it and the Topsy. Anyway transport production will migrate to the Helen when it becomes available. It has armor. Don't know how much difference that'll make, but there it is. JMHO, and playstyle.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 9:34:23 PM)

quote:

So, I keep track of Global supply levels


Yep, that's what I was referring to, as I don't put too much effort into what is where. Of course with the exception that I have enough here and there to do what I'm trying to accomplish.



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 11:00:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a primer that's worth reading, in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

I don't agree with everything in it but it should be helpful. By Numdydar


So you do not agree with the way the game works or you do not agree with how I wrote it [:)] Inquiring minds want to know [:D]



Let me just be kind and say it helped me considerably.



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 11:22:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub



I do something similar, but there's still too much demand with the early increases in Zero and Oscar production. Its just too hard for me to keep up and in my current game I ran out of Ha-35's for a short period (because I was producing Kate2's). So, for me at least Thalia and Kate2 aren't produced early. LIke Mike Solli I will use the engines available for the Kate1 and produce the 2's later. Now he does it to save HI which it will by using the engine stock of Ha-whatever the Kate1 uses. I like the savings of Ha-35's though and that's the main reason I do it, and yes I know its gonna cost me supplies to bulid the Kate factory back up as I don't think its a simple upgrade. The Thalia I don't produce because there's just not enough difference between it and the Topsy. Anyway transport production will migrate to the Helen when it becomes available. It has armor. Don't know how much difference that'll make, but there it is. JMHO, and playstyle.






I agree with the previous poster about the transports, I'm building Topsys not Thalias. I build both Kate 1 and 2 so that there are always replacements for Kate2. Once you run out of engines, increase production of Kate2 (from say 30/month to 60/month, and do the factory repairs for that level ahead of time) perhaps by converting the B5N1 factory to B5N2. Furthermore another way of reducing Ha-35 engine use is to minimize attrition in the planes that use that engine. For Zeroes I like to have 100+ available in the pools at which point I'm ok with idling the factory. For B5N2s I'd say a factory making 30/month along with another idled capable of 30/month should be ok so long as you're still making B5N1s.

Make the Oscars do the heavy work because the IJN has a much harder time producing well trained air crews than the IJA.







I can't find the /quote that's putting my post in his quote. I wish they'd fix these infinitely endless lines in editing so you can see what you're doing.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/14/2015 11:49:32 PM)

quote:

For Zeroes I like to have 100+ available in the pools at which point I'm ok with idling the factory.


Agreed.

quote:

For B5N2s I'd say a factory making 30/month along with another idled capable of 30/month should be ok so long as you're still making B5N1s.


Hmmm, I'm just producing 30 B5N2s/month (no 1s) and I've got the pool to 100 and the factory idle.

quote:

Make the Oscars do the heavy work because the IJN has a much harder time producing well trained air crews than the IJA.


Absolutely.






Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 12:17:14 AM)

I don't go as high as 100 in the pools for either Zeroes or B5N2... Definitely not the B5N2. You're going to use it on your CVs until you get Jills, and in your few LBA groups, and that's it. Your LBA groups, which most people use for ASW, won't lose that many to ops losses.

I will go over 100 in the pools for the A6M2 simply because it's a long slog to an upgrade, but after that I don't. That's a lot of extra planes. I think in my game, right now, I'm floating around 70. I have a lot of factories turned off - I can always turn them back on when I need them.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 12:37:39 AM)

Thanks Loka I'll keep that advice in mind.



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 1:22:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


Hmmm, I'm just producing 30 B5N2s/month (no 1s) and I've got the pool to 100 and the factory idle.






When were you planning to start the war? [:D]



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 1:25:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't go as high as 100 in the pools for either Zeroes or B5N2... Definitely not the B5N2. You're going to use it on your CVs until you get Jills, and in your few LBA groups, and that's it. Your LBA groups, which most people use for ASW, won't lose that many to ops losses.

I will go over 100 in the pools for the A6M2 simply because it's a long slog to an upgrade, but after that I don't. That's a lot of extra planes. I think in my game, right now, I'm floating around 70. I have a lot of factories turned off - I can always turn them back on when I need them.



All that's fine as long as you don't lose a carrier battle. So just don't lose a carrier battle. [:)]

I should have said do the 100+ pool with the Vals until the Judys are not far off. You don't have a lesser plane for training, so don't worry about it.



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 1:31:43 AM)

Idle the 2Es once you're producing as many as you're losing (hopefully just operations losses).



Lokasenna -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 1:41:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't go as high as 100 in the pools for either Zeroes or B5N2... Definitely not the B5N2. You're going to use it on your CVs until you get Jills, and in your few LBA groups, and that's it. Your LBA groups, which most people use for ASW, won't lose that many to ops losses.

I will go over 100 in the pools for the A6M2 simply because it's a long slog to an upgrade, but after that I don't. That's a lot of extra planes. I think in my game, right now, I'm floating around 70. I have a lot of factories turned off - I can always turn them back on when I need them.



All that's fine as long as you don't lose a carrier battle. So just don't lose a carrier battle. [:)]

I should have said do the 100+ pool with the Vals until the Judys are not far off. You don't have a lesser plane for training, so don't worry about it.


Well if you lose a carrier battle and lose the air groups... you have 21+ days before they respawn to build out the pools [:'(].



geofflambert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 1:52:50 AM)

Oh yes, respawning, it's been a while, I think I can still do it.



rustysi -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 6:07:42 AM)

Hey, whatever's left could always become a Kami. Right?[:)]



SigUp -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 12:04:01 PM)

Okay, thanks for the advice. Will approach it slowly once I have the time. Although one question that persists is how to determine the number of planes to be built. Is it roughly like "okay, I want to switch X squadrons to the plane per month so I need this amount" or "I project to lose Y planes per month so I need this amount" or whatever?



Amoral -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 3:08:28 PM)

Learning to use tracker to understand Japan's needs, and where you have stockpiles waiting for pickup is important. You want to know ahead of time if a shortage is coming and where you can ship from to fix it, rather than scrambling once factories start shutting off.



Numdydar -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 3:18:03 PM)

I track engine and AF pools on a monthly basis as Japan in a separate spreadsheet. That is really the only way you can answer this question. That way you can see the month over month change and determine if your engine/AF production is keeping up with demand.

I found trying to do this on a daily/weekly basis just had too many variations to really see what the true needs were. I did not try twice a month.

For AFs, you could just spot check to see if the pools for the main ones are rising or falling (or zero [X(] ). If you think the pools are too low and all your factories are producing, then increase production of the existing factories by 10-20. Wait until a week after they are fully repaired and see how the pool is doing. Adjust as needed.

The above shows why I only make changes to AF/engines on a monthly basis. If you expand a factory by 20 and wait to see the impact, that will take at least a month to see. 20 days to repair and a week to see the real impact. Which is about a month.

Also it is less costly for Japan to expand a factory versus changing AF type. So unless you really need a lot of a particular AF (which happens quite often with PDU On) it is better to expand a factory versus switching types. Especially from 1E to 2E/4E or visa versa.



Lowpe -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/15/2015 5:27:53 PM)

The question you ask is directly related to your opponent, game settings and scenario you play.

PDU on or off? Realist R&D yes or no? Fuel rich or fuel starved start?

No discussion here about shipbuilding, light industry expansion, late war plane r&d, and these to me are some of the most interesting early war gambits.

If you are playing the AI, I would say just start, and make changes slowly and watch everything in tracker. It is a long war, and you will get a handle on it eventually. Follow Numdydar's guide until you feel comfortable deviating from it, and by then, you will most likely have your own ideas and will be looking for either a nasty AI game or a PBEM game.

Japan is fun...and challenging.




GreyJoy -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 5:54:14 AM)

Yup, keep the expansions slow in the first months of the war.
It's too easy (i do it all the times) to overcommit on certain early types just to find out that you produced 600 A6M2sin excess![:D]




Numdydar -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 3:03:12 PM)

Been there done that too [:D]



obvert -> RE: How to plan the Japanese economy (1/16/2015 7:34:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't go as high as 100 in the pools for either Zeroes or B5N2... Definitely not the B5N2. You're going to use it on your CVs until you get Jills, and in your few LBA groups, and that's it. Your LBA groups, which most people use for ASW, won't lose that many to ops losses.



I used B5N2 for ASW and kamis until 7/45 and wished I had more of them then! [:)]

They get the MAD device eventually, which is pretty useful, and they're the best IJN ASW plane even before that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Idle the 2Es once you're producing as many as you're losing (hopefully just operations losses).


Yes, if you're talking about Sally without armor.

No, if you mean Helens. Make all of the Helens you can make (reasonably), meaning set a factory to what you'll estimate per month plus a few, then never shut it off. They make good ASW and kami planes late, plus still allow you to hit Allied airfields in the endgame when other airframes have better speed and range but smaller bomb load.

Check AARs for sure. Mike Solli is the best as there is a lot of info and discussion of different opinions about it. Others are good too, any that have a lot of chatter and lists.

Whatever you do change thins slowly for Japan. Beware of unneeded supply expenditure and any use of fuel. Don't just make decisions. Think about the entire war, and plan for it from the beginning.



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