RE: Naval and Defense News (Full Version)

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SuaveWatermelon -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/3/2015 1:29:29 AM)

I wouldn't quite say that this makes the LCS obsolete in the surface role. One of the advantages that the LCS brings is a greater ability to maneuver and operate in littoral waters (such as can be found in, for instance, the Norwegian fjords). What I think it would mean is that the LCS would instead be deployed in an offensive role flushing out small surface combatants with fire support from the Burkes and Zumwalts rather than as any kind of fleet defense against FACs.

Additionally, if the RCS values for the both classes of LCS are correct, then both LCS classes have some very good stealth characteristics which would make them useful in heavily populated waters (such as in the Persian Gulf).

USS Independence managed to evade detection for some time at RIMPAC 2014 in an ASuW exercise.

quote:

“We played [opposition force] against four other vessels, two foreign and two US,” Smith said. “In a four-hour event, we got almost two hours without being seen.” Operating within a proscribed area, the ship, he said, “went all dark, [emissions control] silent, sprint and drifted, used lowest radar cross section against their helos. I think we did pretty well, you could see their helos coming toward us and then going away.”


http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140830/DEFREG02/308300022/RIMPAC-Exercise-Puts-LCS-Through-Paces



wild_Willie2 -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/3/2015 7:44:28 AM)

Normally I am quite an optimist when it comes to novel designs, but about the LCS design I have my doubts. The designers tried to put to many roles into one single design and the result is a very expensive and under gunned speedboat that can carry some silly and very expensive mission packages. At a 100 tons per mission package these cant even be transported by AC so you'll have to buy a lot of them in order to forward deploy them around the world.

Somebody tried to save some money and this resulted in this weird hybrid design (No, TWO separate designs to make things worse).
They really should have build two mores specialized designs based on the same hull instead, a slower support/ASW/mine countermeasures ship and a faster and more heavily armed frigate.

Ah well, water under the bridge...



SuaveWatermelon -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/3/2015 4:39:43 PM)

If there is one thing I know about the US military it is that they will make their equipment work. It's not like the LCS is flawed beyond repair (it's not even that deeply flawed). Once a long range missile is chosen, these ships would be plenty fine for the roles given to them. In fact, the only real thing wrong with it is the module swapping scheme.

If I had to guess, these ships will primarily be deployed primarily with the ASW module as that is what the Navy needs most with the CSGs (the Navy War College was certainly impressed with the LCS' ASW capabilities). The other two modules would probably either be brought in advance from US bases or placed at forward bases such as in Djibouti, Italy, Japan, Bahrain, etc.

That being said, 24 of them is probably adequate, the other ships should probably be FFs not LCS (there are supposed to be 32 LCS and 20 FFs).

quote:

“My initial impressions are that I think [the LCS] is going to play much more significantly in the open water than perhaps we had previously opined,” said Rear Adm. Thomas Rowden, Navy’s director of surface warfare.


Link:

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/04/02/lcs-wargame-reveals-new-tactics-amid-controversy/




wild_Willie2 -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/3/2015 5:21:19 PM)

I have no doubt that the US navy will make the LCS work, it's just a matter of how much extra money they will have to trow at it in order to get it to work (i.e. getting the mission packages light and effective enough and the extra cost of redesigning them into real frigates).




AlanChan -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 10:44:19 AM)

Chinese used SY-400 (source of AKG-400 for Pakistan AF) to do Typhoon research, look at the flight path, I guess it will create some problem for SAMs

[image]http://i.guancha.cn/news/2015/10/07/20151007092520814.jpg[/image]



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 12:43:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlanChan

Chinese used SY-400 (source of AKG-400 for Pakistan AF) to do Typhoon research, look at the flight path, I guess it will create some problem for SAMs


Well, hardly surprising consider its existence comes with their technological marvels years ago:
http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/sy-400-guided-rocket-makes-tv-debut

Skipping missile trajectory is typical for orbital re-entry ballistic missiles, but it's not all about how it tumbles to dodge SAMs. The difficulty to make it accurately hit the target while skipping is a real challenge.

Also, SY-400 is by far the most advance and mysterious VLRS (Vertical Launch Rocket System) the Chinese has developed. I highly speculated it might have capability to be used as a very cheap SSM for 052D and 055 destoryers, which can be quad-packed in a single VLS pit. It surely don't have the range of cruise missile or proper tactical ballistic missile, but still have enough range to 'cause regional trouble' when Chinese ships are really armed with it.

(each SY-400 rocket have 0.4m of diameter, so it's surely have no problem to be quad-packed in 0.85m VLS pit that 052D have. I don't have actual data to support this claim, but that isn't entirely impossible. If the 'semi-hypocritical' 055 Zheng He armed 64 of those in only 16 VLS pits, it surely bring more destruction than 16 DF-10 cruise missiles)

Highly hypocritical I am sure, but from the determination to make rocket into an Omni-weapon for China, they surely will figure it out.




Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 12:53:09 PM)

-- del for double post --



Hongjian -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 1:18:10 PM)

Impressive show of firepower by Russia. The rate of fire in incredible. [&o]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=63&v=iMasnaAf_H4

What are those cruise missiles? Land-attack Klubs?

Anyway, I wished that China grew some balls and joined the Russian-led coalition. Beijing is groweling too much infront of the Saudis and other Gulf-States, who are still China's biggest oil-suppliers. Xi should have sent a few H-6Ks to Iraq to partake the cruise missile campaign against ISIS and FSA/Nusra, while supporting Syrian ground offensive with UAVs...



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 1:48:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Anyway, I wished that China grew some balls and joined the Russian-led coalition. Beijing is groweling too much infront of the Saudis and other Gulf-States, who are still China's biggest oil-suppliers. Xi should have sent a few H-6Ks to Iraq to partake the cruise missile campaign against ISIS and FSA/Nusra, while supporting Syrian ground offensive with UAVs...

If military power can be strengthen by making war, then nobody will trust peace with it. You have no idea how China holding so much from really make a direct confronting toward other countries (even they did, they knew how it cause even more conflict in the end with India and Vietnam, whom both made war to China). Also, considering many military speculators believe that China will launch pearl-harbor style attack to equalize the US and Russia's powers, but it's still only happens in their heads or fiction stories.

Back to the cruise missiles, some said those are Kh-101 (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5-101), and in DB3000 too:

[image]http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Aircraft/Tu_95MSM/X_101.png[/image]

Ranged around 4500-5500km, but that's hellishly long range, and about to be called as ICCM. More realistically says it only have 1500km.



Vici Supreme -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 7:25:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Impressive show of firepower by Russia. The rate of fire in incredible. [&o]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=63&v=iMasnaAf_H4

What are those cruise missiles? Land-attack Klubs?


Was going to post about the same thing here... [:)]

Yes, the missile must be the SS-N-30 (3M14 Kalibr) land-attack cruise missile.
I think the video is interesting for a number of reasons. You can see what vessels were used to conduct the strikes. We see a number of Buyan-M-class (Project 21631) vessels and also the sole Project 11661K Dagestan. Simply everything VLS-equipped the Caspian Flotilla has to offer... It also shows how the Russians employ their missiles in large tomahawk-style volleys, despite the fact that all of these ships have a maximum of eight UKSK-cells. Last, the graphic portraying flight paths through Iranian territory to reach for northern Iraq and Syria.

For me, a more interesting Syria-conflict footage of the last weeks!



Hongjian -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/7/2015 9:34:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlanChan

Chinese used SY-400 (source of AKG-400 for Pakistan AF) to do Typhoon research, look at the flight path, I guess it will create some problem for SAMs

[image]http://i.guancha.cn/news/2015/10/07/20151007092520814.jpg[/image]


And the SY-400 missile also dropped several payloads (with sensors up-linked to the satellite) along the way, in addition to its multiple changes of trajectory. This weapon is pretty much a further development of the SM-4 (land attack SM-2) concept.

The SY-400 (along with the larger BP-12A) has been in service for quite some time and was designed as short-range tactical ballistic rocket in the 'missile defense buster' role. Would be fun seeing 052Ds packing those, but they are too short range for naval use, and it also cant hit moving targets. If anything, the equally small diameter (and quad-packable) WS-64, which seems to be based on the SY-400, would be suitable for naval use, as it has a terminal homing head capable of hitting moving surface targets and 280km range.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150625000159&cid=1101
http://defence.pk/threads/chinas-ws-64-touted-as-first-precision-anti-ship-rocket-launcher.382833/

[image]http://www.wantchinatimes.com/newsphoto/2015-06-25/450/20150625000169.jpg[/image]
[image]http://y2.ifengimg.com/haina/2015_26/aad4459a64ba3d1.jpg[/image]
[image]http://y2.ifengimg.com/haina/2015_26/52b38e48d7ed279.jpg[/image]



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/8/2015 12:22:19 AM)

So these are land-attack Klubs that rarely heard about. I though it would be a legendary Russian ICCM.



AlanChan -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/8/2015 8:54:31 PM)

Is there any indication that SY-400 is in CPLA service? I know its derivative, AKG-400 is in PAF.



thewood1 -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/8/2015 9:21:28 PM)

The US is claiming 4 of the 26 missiles fired crashed while over flying Iran. There is debate about if the 4 were counted in the 26 or if 30 were fired.



Triode -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/8/2015 10:14:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The US is claiming


more like CNN claiming so far



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/8/2015 11:48:12 PM)

Given that the Russians haven't exactly been shooting cruise missiles much, and that that sort of fail/miss rate is right up there with what first gen US cruise missiles experience twenty years ago, sounds about right.



thewood1 -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:10:49 AM)

It is on several news sites and they all source a Pentagon report.



thewood1 -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:12:51 AM)

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:39:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.

They just dispensing old stockpile of missiles which is about to be expired. Besides, even inferior missiles can still get the data result from launching them, which is exactly what Russia is needed for their missile deals in the future.



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:52:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.

They just dispensing old stockpile of missiles which is about to be expired. Besides, even inferior missiles can still get the data result from launching them, which is exactly what Russia is needed for their missile deals in the future.


Where do you get this stuff[:)]

They're using weapons to hit targets. If there is any analysis to be done its whether or not the targets are worth the cost of the missile.

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:55:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.


Depends how big the inventories are an if they are replacing 1:1. Offhand given their operations world wide its been a very expensive few years for them in general.

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:56:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The US is claiming 4 of the 26 missiles fired crashed while over flying Iran. There is debate about if the 4 were counted in the 26 or if 30 were fired.


Reliability rates might be pretty close to Tomahawk. Haven't seen a recent list but the US/UK tends to loose a few to failure as well. What's interesting is the US took an interest in reporting it.

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 12:59:43 AM)

Another thing to point out is this system is likely one of the reason the US invested so heavily in JLENS. How would the US fair against adversaries with similar long range strike capabilities? Its an interesting problem to ponder.

Mike



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 1:08:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.

They just dispensing old stockpile of missiles which is about to be expired. Besides, even inferior missiles can still get the data result from launching them, which is exactly what Russia is needed for their missile deals in the future.


Where do you get this stuff[:)]

They're using weapons to hit targets. If there is any analysis to be done its whether or not the targets are worth the cost of the missile.

Mike



No, but I am fully certain they wouldn't entirely bring out some shiny new and expensive weapons on the 'savage of the land'. Russia is still the fourth biggest of military expense in the world, and several indication that economy and geopolitical factors hardly make Russia as uprising as expected. If not, they can bring PAK-FA and Kh-101 in actions for even bigger military propaganda and data analysis in Syria.

Klub and their derivatives are 80s tech, and expectably modernized with advance warhead and sensors, which is enough to hunt people down around 3 meters MOA, however, these are only theorial weapon performances. Faulty missiles are expected as Pentagon cautiously rebuffed to Russia.

Russia just don't give a damn at all, if they drops bombs and shoot missiles, then it is their game willing to play.



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 1:30:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

No, but I am fully certain they wouldn't entirely bring out some shiny new and expensive weapons on the 'savage of the land'. Russia is still the fourth biggest of military expense in the world, and several indication that economy and geopolitical factors hardly make Russia as uprising as expected. If not, they can bring PAK-FA and Kh-101 in actions for even bigger military propaganda and data analysis in Syria.

Klub and their derivatives are 80s tech, and expectably modernized with advance warhead and sensors, which is enough to hunt people down around 3 meters MOA, however, these are only theorial weapon performances. Faulty missiles are expected as Pentagon cautiously rebuffed to Russia.

Russia just don't give a damn at all, if they drops bombs and shoot missiles, then it is their game willing to play.



A few days ago nobody would have thought they would have used the weapons they did and strike from the Caspian so I think guessing what weapons they'd use and not is pointless. What matters is the end result.

Mike



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 1:42:36 AM)

Well, the "end result" is an elusive beast, too. The proximate result--things go boom--is pretty easy to ascertain and verify. The ultimate, political result--the other guys do what you want them to--is a bit more difficult, as the US has learned all too well.



mikmykWS -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 2:15:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

Well, the "end result" is an elusive beast, too. The proximate result--things go boom--is pretty easy to ascertain and verify. The ultimate, political result--the other guys do what you want them to--is a bit more difficult, as the US has learned all too well.


Agreed. Problem is no other major power has enough skin in the game yet to incur the cost to influence a conclusion. Nobody wants to admit this but I think maintaining the status quo is more desirable until an acceptable faction is found there. Russia has made its choice. We'll see how they do after the opening drive.

Mike




Kitchens Sink -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 2:20:25 AM)

Next up....upgrade the facilities at Tartus, add a few newer ships to the 5th Med Squadron and a few more planes to Latakia. Assad will be in power for decades. Why shoot from the Caspian when you can do it from the Eastern Med?

I was working on a Scenario called "Syria Later"....now Putin has ruined it for me by stealing my idea.



Dysta -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 3:01:19 AM)

Nearly making the Syria becomes the center of the world when Russia did this. Well, looks like Syria is an unbreakable rope to be tugged by east and west for a long while then.

But, I perfer to maintain focus on weapon performances more than political debates.



Triode -> RE: Naval and Defense News (10/9/2015 6:24:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I wonder how long the Russian MOD budget can sustain a high-level of missile firing? Even as large as the US DoD budget is, they were feeling the pain even back in 90-91.


firs series of 3M14 end of warranty period of operation expires in 2018-19 so money already spent



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