quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Allies planes are pretty much limitless when you get this late.

The carrier bombers are really deep...and almost everything else is pretty darn hefty too.

Have you run into any of the British funnies...the super heavy one bomb planes?

What other late war plane have your run into that was memorable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72
Russian bombers continue to be hopeless except for that flying tank. I think I saw some Soviet bombers which looked like dakotas with some bombs slung underneath. Needless to say, in this threat environment I think they lasted the whole of 2 days before Mike withdrew the survivors

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72
Russian bombers continue to be hopeless except for that flying tank. I think I saw some Soviet bombers which looked like dakotas with some bombs slung underneath. Needless to say, in this threat environment I think they lasted the whole of 2 days before Mike withdrew the survivors

I'm surprised the Il-2 is any good. Does that armor really protect them from 20mm cannons? Or are they flying so low that intercepting fighters are not an issue? Curious how the Il-2 compares to the A-20.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72
Russian bombers continue to be hopeless except for that flying tank. I think I saw some Soviet bombers which looked like dakotas with some bombs slung underneath. Needless to say, in this threat environment I think they lasted the whole of 2 days before Mike withdrew the survivors

I'm surprised the Il-2 is any good. Does that armor really protect them from 20mm cannons? Or are they flying so low that intercepting fighters are not an issue? Curious how the Il-2 compares to the A-20.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

NJP,

Can you envision Japan getting any late war fighter in sufficient numbers to actually make a difference.
Other than the Frank R and Sam? Even Sam comes so late.

Mr. Kane did it to GreyJoy, and Koniu too had a late war plane early. Mr. Kane primarily had Franks and George, but I seem to remember he got the Shinden early.

Koniu had the Ki83 early.

It seems to me more hinges on play styles than anything else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

NJP,

Can you envision Japan getting any late war fighter in sufficient numbers to actually make a difference.
Other than the Frank R and Sam? Even Sam comes so late.

Mr. Kane did it to GreyJoy, and Koniu too had a late war plane early. Mr. Kane primarily had Franks and George, but I seem to remember he got the Shinden early.

Koniu had the Ki83 early.

It seems to me more hinges on play styles than anything else.

This Lowpe is again an excellent question. I am hoping this game has in some ways dispelled some of the accepted truths when playing Japan, eg, you can't be competitive in the air without PDU-On (not true), you will run out of supplies if you are too aggressive in 42/43 (not correct India and OZ in this game) and fighting the Russians is lunacy (only partly true [:)])

My view is (and only in my humble opinion) advanced air frames are indeed a waste of time and the opportunity cost of getting them is not worth the price in supplies. Decent Allied players will be in range of Japan by 44 and factories will start to burn. The only thing that has prevented a complete collapse for me has been the sheer numbers of fighter aircraft I can continue to throw up into the skies and the Frank R, George, Tojo, Jack and even the zero can give a reasonable account of themselves in a defensive battle.

I think I have also proven to myself in this game that the Allies don't run out of planes this late in the war, so I think it is better to have reliable/ serviceable air frames that you can mass produce and stockpile than going for something that may give you a slightly higher kill ratio but field in far smaller numbers.

I would tried harder to get the Sam quicker next game but that is it.

It would be a good question to also ask Mike as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Well, according to my sources GJ was demoralized by very agressive use of Ki-84r. But final morale hit he has received at Singapore from 400 mines and 8 inch Coastal Battery (one BB and a few CA/CL sunk, several other damaged).

I did not have chance to really use my toys, he has surrender in less than 30 days from introducing Ki-83 and 15 and less than 15 day after first K-94 Sentai become operational as I remember.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Agree, the Allies need to focus on cutting off the oil/fuel for Japan and start attacking industry. As you have succinctly put, an industrially intact Japan will fight you hard right into 45 despite the inferiority of their weapon systems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Agree, the Allies need to focus on cutting off the oil/fuel for Japan and start attacking industry. As you have succinctly put, an industrially intact Japan will fight you hard right into 45 despite the inferiority of their weapon systems.

In my late game Jocke systematically dismantled the Japanese industry starting in the DEI in mid-44, moving through China and up to the Home Islands. He also made sure to cut off fuel as soon as possible, which was around the turn of 45. He also did target individual aircraft factories, taking out many of the more important or late fighters, including the Ki-83 and J7W. In spite of not being happy with his B-29 losses throughout, he accomplished the goal very effectively.

Previous to that game so many players told me to stockpile HI, but no one mentioned supply. Although I did last until July 45 at that point I was able to only barely set CAP and fly occasional strikes as even on Honshu many bases were low on supply.

I would say supply is paramount to functioning late, as well as keeping oil/fuel flowing as long as possible, but certain fighters can make a huge difference. The Ki-84r is huge, and we know that, because you can make numbers and it can work both offensively and defensively into mid-45. No one is talking about the Ki-84b here, which I'm curious to try this game. Defensively some players like Pax swear by it.

No one has mentioned the N1K5 either. I didn't use it before, but it should be very good defensively.

The Ki-83 allows Japan to have long range offensive capability well into 45. It's incredibly effective, and can stand up to most Allied fighters 1:1. getting a 1:1 result rather than 1:3 is huge as it preserves pilots, kills opposing pilots, and makes for slowed pace if a few sweeps don't clear the path for bombers.

The NF are also crucial as I found out. This game I plan to use several I didn't before, including the Nick Id and the Randy Ic. Here though is where numbers really count.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Agree, the Allies need to focus on cutting off the oil/fuel for Japan and start attacking industry. As you have succinctly put, an industrially intact Japan will fight you hard right into 45 despite the inferiority of their weapon systems.

In my late game Jocke systematically dismantled the Japanese industry starting in the DEI in mid-44, moving through China and up to the Home Islands. He also made sure to cut off fuel as soon as possible, which was around the turn of 45. He also did target individual aircraft factories, taking out many of the more important or late fighters, including the Ki-83 and J7W. In spite of not being happy with his B-29 losses throughout, he accomplished the goal very effectively.

Previous to that game so many players told me to stockpile HI, but no one mentioned supply. Although I did last until July 45 at that point I was able to only barely set CAP and fly occasional strikes as even on Honshu many bases were low on supply.

I would say supply is paramount to functioning late, as well as keeping oil/fuel flowing as long as possible, but certain fighters can make a huge difference. The Ki-84r is huge, and we know that, because you can make numbers and it can work both offensively and defensively into mid-45. No one is talking about the Ki-84b here, which I'm curious to try this game. Defensively some players like Pax swear by it.

No one has mentioned the N1K5 either. I didn't use it before, but it should be very good defensively.

The Ki-83 allows Japan to have long range offensive capability well into 45. It's incredibly effective, and can stand up to most Allied fighters 1:1. getting a 1:1 result rather than 1:3 is huge as it preserves pilots, kills opposing pilots, and makes for slowed pace if a few sweeps don't clear the path for bombers.

The NF are also crucial as I found out. This game I plan to use several I didn't before, including the Nick Id and the Randy Ic. Here though is where numbers really count.

Usually I am not using Ki-84b simple because I can have Ki-83 around same time, additionally Ki-84b is low-medium altitude fighter, this is not enough from my point of view to be good very late war fighter. Ki-100 can do fine as defensive fighter and it is easy to maintain due to nice SR:1.
Ki-83 is great plane to organize LRCAP traps far behind front lines, either;) The best IJA fighter in game in my opinion.
Well N1K5 looks great too, however I do not see reason to R&D it. N1K2 can do job fine until end and SR:2 is very nice to have in late time war. Ki-84r and Ki-83 are enough for offensive purpose in my opinion. By limit yourself to produce only a few airframes you can save a lot of supplies too.
I have very nice experience with Ki-44c either, even in late '44 or early '45.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Agree, the Allies need to focus on cutting off the oil/fuel for Japan and start attacking industry. As you have succinctly put, an industrially intact Japan will fight you hard right into 45 despite the inferiority of their weapon systems.

In my late game Jocke systematically dismantled the Japanese industry starting in the DEI in mid-44, moving through China and up to the Home Islands. He also made sure to cut off fuel as soon as possible, which was around the turn of 45. He also did target individual aircraft factories, taking out many of the more important or late fighters, including the Ki-83 and J7W. In spite of not being happy with his B-29 losses throughout, he accomplished the goal very effectively.

Previous to that game so many players told me to stockpile HI, but no one mentioned supply. Although I did last until July 45 at that point I was able to only barely set CAP and fly occasional strikes as even on Honshu many bases were low on supply.

I would say supply is paramount to functioning late, as well as keeping oil/fuel flowing as long as possible, but certain fighters can make a huge difference. The Ki-84r is huge, and we know that, because you can make numbers and it can work both offensively and defensively into mid-45. No one is talking about the Ki-84b here, which I'm curious to try this game. Defensively some players like Pax swear by it.

No one has mentioned the N1K5 either. I didn't use it before, but it should be very good defensively.

The Ki-83 allows Japan to have long range offensive capability well into 45. It's incredibly effective, and can stand up to most Allied fighters 1:1. getting a 1:1 result rather than 1:3 is huge as it preserves pilots, kills opposing pilots, and makes for slowed pace if a few sweeps don't clear the path for bombers.

The NF are also crucial as I found out. This game I plan to use several I didn't before, including the Nick Id and the Randy Ic. Here though is where numbers really count.

Usually I am not using Ki-84b simple because I can have Ki-83 around same time, additionally Ki-84b is low-medium altitude fighter, this is not enough from my point of view to be good very late war fighter. Ki-100 can do fine as defensive fighter and it is easy to maintain due to nice SR:1.
Ki-83 is great plane to organize LRCAP traps far behind front lines, either;) The best IJA fighter in game in my opinion.
Well N1K5 looks great too, however I do not see reason to R&D it. N1K2 can do job fine until end and SR:2 is very nice to have in late time war. Ki-84r and Ki-83 are enough for offensive purpose in my opinion. By limit yourself to produce only a few airframes you can save a lot of supplies too.
I have very nice experience with Ki-44c either, even in late '44 or early '45.

How do you all use the Ki-44 IIc? I found it dropped off to being almost useless, similar to an Oscar but without the range, by mid-late-44.

The Ki-100 in my game is still only 360mph, or 367mph for the final version. without Symon's air fixes it's decent, but not great at that speed. Sweeps take out a lot once P-47N and P-51D and late Spits get involved. It did well against the USN and Marines though.

The N1K1 is better in my experience to the N1K2 simply because of the extra bit of accurate firepower, but I also build for the service 2, and I try to keep some N1K1 around. Also it has a higher max altitude which gives it a big advantage. The N1K5 seems on paper to be a faster, more powerful version all around, but unfortunately doesn't have the high max altitude. Those two 12.7mm MG with 50 accuracy have to help a lot though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The Frank B's cannons make it look like a great bomber killer...on paper at least.

I think in your game you should have developed the Jack. I know it is only 4 squadrons, but that is 120 quality fighters you can fly with a 1st generation engine and the upgrade path and early arrival makes it a very cost effective plane to get.

Obvert's idea of the final George is interesting too, but the change in engines can be tough.

NJP, even if you made enough engines for the Tony, and produced the Sam would it have changed the outcome much?

In a lot of ways, this game is a great test for how tough Japan can be if the JFB can protect the industry. Unfortunately, there aren't many AFBs that allow that as they all see quite clearly the industrial destruction is the path to victory.

Also, I wanted to mention this was a scen 2 game whereas Obvert v Jocke was Scen 1.

What do both games have in common....the IJN stayed pretty complete to the end game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I double checked Mr. Kane GreyJoy and he was field the Ki94 and Shinden in mid Dec 44 or even earlier. I think he had 90 of the Ki94 flying at end game.

There is a morale impact I noticed of the advanced frames coming early, and their presence so early did demoralize GreyJoy and played a role in him deciding to surrender.

So, there is that.

I wonder what would have been the impact on Japan in your game had the Allies pursued a methodical industrial aerial attack. Even a night bombing campaign with 4E...how much would that have hindered his ground advance?

If Japan is left industrially intact then they can be ferocious end game opponents.

Agree, the Allies need to focus on cutting off the oil/fuel for Japan and start attacking industry. As you have succinctly put, an industrially intact Japan will fight you hard right into 45 despite the inferiority of their weapon systems.

In my late game Jocke systematically dismantled the Japanese industry starting in the DEI in mid-44, moving through China and up to the Home Islands. He also made sure to cut off fuel as soon as possible, which was around the turn of 45. He also did target individual aircraft factories, taking out many of the more important or late fighters, including the Ki-83 and J7W. In spite of not being happy with his B-29 losses throughout, he accomplished the goal very effectively.

Previous to that game so many players told me to stockpile HI, but no one mentioned supply. Although I did last until July 45 at that point I was able to only barely set CAP and fly occasional strikes as even on Honshu many bases were low on supply.

I would say supply is paramount to functioning late, as well as keeping oil/fuel flowing as long as possible, but certain fighters can make a huge difference. The Ki-84r is huge, and we know that, because you can make numbers and it can work both offensively and defensively into mid-45. No one is talking about the Ki-84b here, which I'm curious to try this game. Defensively some players like Pax swear by it.

No one has mentioned the N1K5 either. I didn't use it before, but it should be very good defensively.

The Ki-83 allows Japan to have long range offensive capability well into 45. It's incredibly effective, and can stand up to most Allied fighters 1:1. getting a 1:1 result rather than 1:3 is huge as it preserves pilots, kills opposing pilots, and makes for slowed pace if a few sweeps don't clear the path for bombers.

The NF are also crucial as I found out. This game I plan to use several I didn't before, including the Nick Id and the Randy Ic. Here though is where numbers really count.

Usually I am not using Ki-84b simple because I can have Ki-83 around same time, additionally Ki-84b is low-medium altitude fighter, this is not enough from my point of view to be good very late war fighter. Ki-100 can do fine as defensive fighter and it is easy to maintain due to nice SR:1.
Ki-83 is great plane to organize LRCAP traps far behind front lines, either;) The best IJA fighter in game in my opinion.
Well N1K5 looks great too, however I do not see reason to R&D it. N1K2 can do job fine until end and SR:2 is very nice to have in late time war. Ki-84r and Ki-83 are enough for offensive purpose in my opinion. By limit yourself to produce only a few airframes you can save a lot of supplies too.
I have very nice experience with Ki-44c either, even in late '44 or early '45.

How do you all use the Ki-44 IIc? I found it dropped off to being almost useless, similar to an Oscar but without the range, by mid-late-44.

The Ki-100 in my game is still only 360mph, or 367mph for the final version. without Symon's air fixes it's decent, but not great at that speed. Sweeps take out a lot once P-47N and P-51D and late Spits get involved. It did well against the USN and Marines though.

The N1K1 is better in my experience to the N1K2 simply because of the extra bit of accurate firepower, but I also build for the service 2, and I try to keep some N1K1 around. Also it has a higher max altitude which gives it a big advantage. The N1K5 seems on paper to be a faster, more powerful version all around, but unfortunately doesn't have the high max altitude. Those two 12.7mm MG with 50 accuracy have to help a lot though.

Well, my game with GJ was without Symon's air fixes except 2 months in mid '44. So all I am saying it is about my experience with stock airframes. However I did not meet P-51D or P-47N in air yet, GJ surrendered game before end of January 1945 ;(. What I know, base on reading your ARR I am using little different air doctrine.
Sorry njp72, it seems I am using a lot of yours space here. So I will stop here ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

MIA notices appear for time to time, about the pilots that sneak back through the lines. Another nice touch by the devs!

That does look like you may have gotten the upper hand there. You also have nearly every plane Japan produced from 43 onward in one screen! [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

I hope the Nate made it through[:D]