RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/4/2015 6:26:43 PM)

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9th Air Force
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They are busy knocking out all the small Railyards and Ports in France. Not sure if this will make any difference but Iīm barely losing any planes so I might as well.

[image]local://upfiles/32406/C14F5B406A354B88BA7A276F3C243B75.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/4/2015 6:44:13 PM)

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Mediterranean
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Most of the airfields on Sardinia are firmly closed now. No counter attack materializes. II Corp land and take up defensive positions. Allied Recon did not fly as expected so I feel a bit blind.

So far everything is going to plan.

[image]local://upfiles/32406/6FC71FC771DC4CBC96441C8E9D8B44BD.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 9:26:49 AM)

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Turn 13. September 1943
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Europe
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Th 8th manage a relatively safe hit on Danzig. Bomber Command manages another night bombing fiasco. [8|] Weather is turning for the worse with rain coming in. U-boat VPs are again at -5 despite the hit at Hamburg last week. Sucks not being able to move the 8th off the U-boats for even a single turn. [:(]

Hopefully things will look better with V-weapons as many are located within the reach of 9th AF giving the 8th more freedom.

[image]local://upfiles/32406/CC3E5113108A487F89CDC48ECB296B1C.jpg[/image]



gmsitton -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 9:43:34 AM)

All those ports you bomb, you just gotta fix later

Are you flying Bomber Command at 14k Ft on purpose?



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 10:05:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gmsitton

All those ports you bomb, you just gotta fix later

Are you flying Bomber Command at 14k Ft on purpose?


This turn yes. I try to change altitude every turn. 14k is too low though as can from the damage taken.

Learning by doing I guess. [:D]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 10:10:54 AM)


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The Med
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Progress is fast here with the armor from II Corps. No sign that Pelton intends to intervene. Only two level 1 airfields still in Axis hands.

Recon has found multiple defensive lines across Italy.

[image]local://upfiles/32406/B3794B7A5CD94CE7AE36E774B047689E.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 10:55:30 AM)

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Airwar over Germany
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Iīm looking at the possibility of using the 8th for deep strikes into Germany. Right now there are two major concentrations of German fighters. First around the Ruhr and a second around Hamburg.

If I can start hitting deep into Germany it might force Pelton to spread out his defenses and send Fighters back into central Germany.

Playing around a bit with paint.net. Great prog. [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/32406/DF21CF7E1D0644F99A05444302CE501B.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 11:24:31 AM)

Joc check out some of the plugins by pyrochild. There are some cool effects that you can add.

You are doing much better than me with VP's it looks like



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 4:11:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Joc check out some of the plugins by pyrochild. There are some cool effects that you can add.

You are doing much better than me with VP's it looks like


Thanks for the tip! Iīll check it out. Very happy with paint.net so far. [:)]

-50VPs and dropping with a couple each turn right now. Pretty certain it will continue to drop for the rest of the game. [:D]



marion61 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/5/2015 8:20:20 PM)

What might appear to be a gap there in Amsterdam, is probably the worst spot to pick. Interception between those two concentrations would probably hurt.



Q-Ball -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 3:39:03 AM)

Good aar as always, sheep boy.

I don't see a point to bombing targets in France at this stage. I bet you are using 2E bombers and other planes that could be useful in the Med. Just my two cents.

If you are itching to bomb something with 9AF, why not some of the fuel in France? You get points for that.




Baelfiin -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 3:41:40 AM)

I have a theory about rail yards that I will have to see how it goes in my game with pelton.



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 5:26:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

What might appear to be a gap there in Amsterdam, is probably the worst spot to pick. Interception between those two concentrations would probably hurt.


It actually worked pretty well. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Good aar as always, sheep boy.

I don't see a point to bombing targets in France at this stage. I bet you are using 2E bombers and other planes that could be useful in the Med. Just my two cents.

If you are itching to bomb something with 9AF, why not some of the fuel in France? You get points for that.


Thanks Brad! [:)]

Problem with moving them to the Med is lack of space. Almost every AF on Sicily is expanded to size 3 and I still have much of the USAAF 4Es flying from Africa. Not sure I have the space for extra 2Es. Besides the USAAF 2E pools are pretty much drained so Iīm a bit cautious about putting more into the fire.

Oil in France is already bombed. At least all that is within reach of the 9th. [:)]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 5:58:49 AM)

______________________________________________________________________________

Turn 14 and 15. October 1943
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Europe
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We sneak in over Amsterdam. Losses are very light compared to an ordinary turn. The 8th fly all the way to Leipzig and hit the Messerschmidt factory there. Its not completely destroyed and I doubt Pelton will miss the production. But hopefully it will make him spread out his defenses a little more.

On the 15th we have to get back to bombing U-boats. -5 and increasing... [:(] Results are predictable and losses heavy.

Bomber Command continues with the usual debacles. They have been hitting Hamburg for two nights now doing a whooping 8 points of damage for about 150 own losses...[8|] As this continues to be a waste of time I have to figure out something else for BC to do.



[image]local://upfiles/32406/D5E7258F9C8D4A518A1DDF672FD3E0AA.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 6:01:24 AM)

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The Med
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Very quiet here. Strategic are resting and relocating while Tactical covers the Sardinia invasion. Ground forces have now cleared the island and 225 fighters land on the intact airfields. This makes Pelton pay dearly for his recon over Sardinia and some 60 planes are shot down. This time its the Luftwaffe. [:)]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 6:05:02 AM)

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USAAF Long range fighters
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The situation is critical. I can no longer fill out squadrons. This means I will have less planes to escort. That will mean less attrition on the Luftwaffe and more bombers lost.

Not good. [:(]

[image]local://upfiles/32406/1A1B2A5D3AE344D1B27BB4D02C042BC5.jpg[/image]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 7:28:40 AM)

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Thoughts on the game so far. (First impression)
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This is based on both my game with Pelton and my AI game. Keep in mind Iīm expressing an opinion. Not saying its right or wrong...and while I absolutely love what the devs have done with the air war there are some things I think need addressing. I kind of do this for all games I AAR and I try to do them with regular intervals. Its interesting to go back and read them once the game is finished. Its not intended as "whine" but is just my own reflections on things in the game. These by nature tend to be negative ones as the positives seldom need comment. [:)]

U-boats...I can certainly see why they put this in. But I think they are to harsh with the penalties. This puts a huge shackle on 8th and in 15 turns I have been able to go for other targets 3 times. Pelton (and any other competent Axis player) knows the importance of the U-boats and can easily mass fighters around the U-boat center around Hamburg. This forces the WA player to keep throwing the only means he has to gain VPs into a meat grinder. This concentration of Axis Fighters skewers the losses beyond what the 8th can sustain. Especially in escorts.

From a game perceptive its not much fun. I know I will take incredible losses and its stupid to keep going but I pretty much have to. There needs to be an alternative to this. Right now the bombing of the Reich is a static affair where both sides concentrate on the same area. A more fluent air campaign would no doubt be much more for fun for both sides.

Bomber Command and night bombing. While it seems possible to get some good result from time to time its far more normal to knock out a couple of factories per turn. This would seem acceptable if losses were comparably light. But they arnīt. They are actually not that far from the losses you suffer flying at daylight. I think some adjustments need to take place.

VPs
I think the entire VP system is off. I still havnīt seen a single MP game where the WA are on the plus side? From what I can tell from my AI game (late 44) there wonīt be a huge influx of WA VPs in the last part of the game due to the combat losses dragging the VP down. Even in my AI game (granted my first one) Iīm barely on the positive side after a successful D-day. Doing my D-day landing against the normal AI still cost me something like 200 VPs in ground losses. I shudder to think what Pelton would cost me in terms of VPs.

I donīt think its a good idea to penalize the WA for making ground attacks while having the Axis attack at will without the slightest concern for losses. Same goes for the Air force. Pelton basically suicided the entire RA for no cost at all. If anything it probably saved him some fuel and supplies.

I understand the underlying idea of the VP system but I think its a bad idea for a game. Donīt penalize only one side for ground combat. Especially not the side that is supposed to attack. In the end that might lead to a situation where it might be more beneficial to not attack at all. Hardly desirable.

Iīm not saying I have a better idea but I seriously dislike the idea of being penalized for doing what I am supposed to do and/or being forced to take a certain action or have precious VPs deducted. I donīt think that is a good idea for any game...

Besides that the VP threshold probably has to be adjusted. 2000 VPs for an allied Major victory??? Has anyone been even remotely close to this? (I have 146 VPs in my AI game T67) -2000 VP also seem incredibly unlikely.

German counter invasion attack. I think Pelton has managed to throw or contain every single WA landing so far? Culprit being my old beef: Naval interdiction. Its far, far to easy for the Axis to fly in every single bomber on the continent and mass them on a single spot starving any landing. After that its very easy to smash the beachhead using superior Axis forces. I understand a proper naval interdiction system wonīt happen until the Norway/Denmark modules are done but the current ruleset has to be looked at in the meantime.

I donīt want to play a game where every single landing has to be a D-day times x5 landing.

I might change opinions as the game progresses of course. Time will tell. [:)]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 8:02:23 AM)

I guess I canīt whine that much without offer even a vague idea on how I think the VP system should work. [:D]

Remove negative VPs all together. Scale starts at 0 VPs and never drops below.

Put in a VP gain for the WA on Axis ground losses. Award VPs with increased rate for hitting U-boats in 43 and V-Weapons in 44. Normal amount of VPs for "normal factories". Give VPs for axis planes destroyed. Give "extra" VPs for securing cities on or before historical dates. Remove VPs for plane and ground losses and failure to secure objectives on time.

Put the numbers on a scale. For example: 0 to 500 VPs = Axis major win. 500-1000 VPs = Axis minor victory and so on...

Might look cosmetic and to an extent it is. But it also removes the negative psychological aspect of being penalized for doing something you are supposed to do. I think that is bad game design.



JeffroK -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 8:44:21 AM)

Rather than penalise the Allied player for not wiping out the UBoat factories award them points for making the attacks.\
Thereby its an incentive rather than a penalty.

I also think the UBoat threat in this period was some 6 mths past its peak, and any penalty/reward should be much smaller.

Maybe also consider a VP cost for moving Allied LCU & Air units between theatres and for the Axis to move units frm the East Front.

PS I havent seen VWeapon sites in the Pas de Calais, are they on map or hypothetical only??



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 8:51:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Rather than penalise the Allied player for not wiping out the UBoat factories award them points for making the attacks.\
Thereby its an incentive rather than a penalty.

I also think the UBoat threat in this period was some 6 mths past its peak, and any penalty/reward should be much smaller.

Maybe also consider a VP cost for moving Allied LCU & Air units between theatres and for the Axis to move units frm the East Front.

PS I havent seen VWeapon sites in the Pas de Calais, are they on map or hypothetical only??


Incentive! That was the word I was looking for. [:)]

They are on the map but canīt be hit until a certain date.



marion61 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 11:52:55 AM)

I agree with most of your assessment. VP's kill the WA's incentive to attack and since the WA's can't pull ahistorical divisions from the Pacific, the EF Box unbalances the game. WA's get no extra forces to invade with, and can't pull 15 divisions, of your choice, from another front (As it is I have to pull divisions from England and air groups to use in Italy).

I understand the reason for the vp system, but the allies should get some vp's for axis casualties. I'm sure the axis families were just as upset their loved ones are getting killed, just like allied families. Axis can make senseless attacks and get a vp from it, and then rotate those weak units back. They should have some sort of vp loss so this doesn't become standard practice. I've played several games to the end, and I've never got anything but a draw, and I allegedly know what I'm doing. Even getting bombing points when you enter Germany, and take cities won't get you positive vp's. I would have to stop attacking everywhere for several turns to build up vp's to attack. No way you can get to Berlin on time, and even with the ef box pulled from, it's Feb. '45, and the Russian's just took Warsaw, and have not pressed my opponent once.

I love the game, but being WA is very frustrating, and vp's are very hard to get after Jan. 44. Flak also seems to be way more effective than was the case, and I'm not abusing my air strikes, but my aircraft pools are all dry for recon planes, and several other models. I fly around flak, fly with escorts, and baby my crews and my losses seem a bit excessive. I have no saves as all my games are server games atm. I just hope we can start a new dialogue about the vp system, the air war, and the Ef box. I don't want to lose the ef box, but it's hurting the game more than helping it, but it's still a good idea.

As it is, there doesn't seem to be a way to win against a player of equal or better skill.



carlkay58 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 12:37:32 PM)

A few notes from my experience as play tester and beyond:

1. Most of us, especially me, use the air forces heavier than historically. It was unusual for the strategic bombers to fly more than one mission per week during 1943. There were also several weeks where not a single mission was flown as tactics and targets were re-thought because of heavy losses.

2. The VP system is in flux. This will not be fixed into place until after there is more input from player experience. Now that the game is released, there is a lot more data on the VPs and they can be adjusted over time. The first priority to fix are program bugs but the designers are keeping track of the VPs and experiences.

3. I was one of the first people to play Pelton so he was still formulating his tactics while we played. We are now at turn 47 or so and I can see the changes in his tactics as we go. However I don't know if the tactics he is using will hold up in the long run. He ran the LW into the ground pushing back my Italian mainland invasion - one which I made a lot of mistakes doing too. You can check out my AAR for my evaluation of the situation. I am getting ready to invade northern France and we shall see if he will be able to use the LW in the same way or not. I don't think so but we will see.

4. I have never had problems keeping the UBoat penalties low. I admit, as said above, that my one game against a human (Pelton) took place before he had formulated his plans, but the majority of the UBoat targets can be taken out on Turn 1 BEFORE the Axis can change things around. You can check out my AAR as to how I did that or feel free to ask me. It is possible that a human player could make it more costly after the first turn, but I still think that the Allies can still do things about it. Pelton cannot currently contest me over Germany in our game because of the LW losses in the Med and currently I destroy more LW planes in air to air than I lose. He is also only flying about 5% of the sorties I do.

5. The B26's used in the 9th USAAF are in the midst of a model change in the 43 campaign and there is a two month period where there are no replacements. Using the 9th USAAF during that period will run the numbers of bombers down without replacements. So don't fly that AF during that time. Do not be afraid to have your air forces sit and recover - it goes against a wargamer's grain but sometimes patience is needed.




JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 12:44:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I agree with most of your assessment. VP's kill the WA's incentive to attack and since the WA's can't pull ahistorical divisions from the Pacific, the EF Box unbalances the game. WA's get no extra forces to invade with, and can't pull 15 divisions, of your choice, from another front (As it is I have to pull divisions from England and air groups to use in Italy).

I understand the reason for the vp system, but the allies should get some vp's for axis casualties. I'm sure the axis families were just as upset their loved ones are getting killed, just like allied families. Axis can make senseless attacks and get a vp from it, and then rotate those weak units back. They should have some sort of vp loss so this doesn't become standard practice. I've played several games to the end, and I've never got anything but a draw, and I allegedly know what I'm doing. Even getting bombing points when you enter Germany, and take cities won't get you positive vp's. I would have to stop attacking everywhere for several turns to build up vp's to attack. No way you can get to Berlin on time, and even with the ef box pulled from, it's Feb. '45, and the Russian's just took Warsaw, and have not pressed my opponent once.

I love the game, but being WA is very frustrating, and vp's are very hard to get after Jan. 44. Flak also seems to be way more effective than was the case, and I'm not abusing my air strikes, but my aircraft pools are all dry for recon planes, and several other models. I fly around flak, fly with escorts, and baby my crews and my losses seem a bit excessive. I have no saves as all my games are server games atm. I just hope we can start a new dialogue about the vp system, the air war, and the Ef box. I don't want to lose the ef box, but it's hurting the game more than helping it, but it's still a good idea.

As it is, there doesn't seem to be a way to win against a player of equal or better skill.


Glad to hear Iīm not the only one struggling. [:)]

Certainly a good idea to get a dialogue going. I love the game but I fear in its current state especially MP wonīt be long lived. That would be a great shame. [:(]



JocMeister -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 12:59:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

A few notes from my experience as play tester and beyond:

1. Most of us, especially me, use the air forces heavier than historically. It was unusual for the strategic bombers to fly more than one mission per week during 1943. There were also several weeks where not a single mission was flown as tactics and targets were re-thought because of heavy losses.


Hi carlkey. Thanks for the input. [:)] I actually used your AAR as template when I set up my air force in my first MP game. Almost the same setup against Pelton but I moved some extra P47s + some Stirlings down to the Med. [:)]

Well, Iīve pushed my AF far beyond sustainable losses hitting almost exclusively U-boat targets from T1. On T15 so far and Iīve hit u-boats every turn except 3. Iīm doing good damage but Pelton repairs them just as fast as Iīm bombing them. As its a server game I canīt check but I think I have lost somewhere around 40 to 50 VPs on the U-boats despite a massive commitment even using BC at daylight to hit UBs. Its pretty well documented in this AAR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
2. The VP system is in flux. This will not be fixed into place until after there is more input from player experience. Now that the game is released, there is a lot more data on the VPs and they can be adjusted over time. The first priority to fix are program bugs but the designers are keeping track of the VPs and experiences.


Lets disagree on that priority shall we. [:)] I might be a bit of an alarmist but I donīt think this game will be very long lived with the current VP system. At least not MP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
3. I was one of the first people to play Pelton so he was still formulating his tactics while we played. We are now at turn 47 or so and I can see the changes in his tactics as we go. However I don't know if the tactics he is using will hold up in the long run. He ran the LW into the ground pushing back my Italian mainland invasion - one which I made a lot of mistakes doing too. You can check out my AAR for my evaluation of the situation. I am getting ready to invade northern France and we shall see if he will be able to use the LW in the same way or not. I don't think so but we will see.


Well, he hasnīt done so in our game. Probably since I havnīt landed on mainland Italy yet. [:D] Right now he seems to have every available Fighter protecting the Ruhr and the UB around Hamburg.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
4. I have never had problems keeping the UBoat penalties low. I admit, as said above, that my one game against a human (Pelton) took place before he had formulated his plans, but the majority of the UBoat targets can be taken out on Turn 1 BEFORE the Axis can change things around. You can check out my AAR as to how I did that or feel free to ask me. It is possible that a human player could make it more costly after the first turn, but I still think that the Allies can still do things about it. Pelton cannot currently contest me over Germany in our game because of the LW losses in the Med and currently I destroy more LW planes in air to air than I lose. He is also only flying about 5% of the sorties I do.


As I wrote in reply to your first point I have pretty much wrecked the 8th and Bomber Command trying to keep UB penalties down. I started flying 3 times per week, then had to step down 2...and eventually just 1 as the B17F pools were dry. I now face the same situation with escorts. No more are to be had. Pools are shot and UB penalties keep on rising. And donīt think you can do much more to prevent this then I have. Possibly you can tweak the setting and get a better result. But not by THAT much.

One could argue that factories repair way too fast.

No doubt Pelton has adapted his tactics during his many games before our game and Iīm paying the price for it. Or Iīm just not a very good player. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
5. The B26's used in the 9th USAAF are in the midst of a model change in the 43 campaign and there is a two month period where there are no replacements. Using the 9th USAAF during that period will run the numbers of bombers down without replacements. So don't fly that AF during that time. Do not be afraid to have your air forces sit and recover - it goes against a wargamer's grain but sometimes patience is needed.


I have used the 9th only in France. Havnīt encountered a single fighter for 15 turns. Losing 5-10 planes per turn so losses are lighter then they would have been if I was training. Lets call it training on the job? [:D]




Baelfiin -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 1:04:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I agree with most of your assessment. VP's kill the WA's incentive to attack and since the WA's can't pull ahistorical divisions from the Pacific, the EF Box unbalances the game. WA's get no extra forces to invade with, and can't pull 15 divisions, of your choice, from another front (As it is I have to pull divisions from England and air groups to use in Italy).

I understand the reason for the vp system, but the allies should get some vp's for axis casualties. I'm sure the axis families were just as upset their loved ones are getting killed, just like allied families. Axis can make senseless attacks and get a vp from it, and then rotate those weak units back. They should have some sort of vp loss so this doesn't become standard practice. I've played several games to the end, and I've never got anything but a draw, and I allegedly know what I'm doing. Even getting bombing points when you enter Germany, and take cities won't get you positive vp's. I would have to stop attacking everywhere for several turns to build up vp's to attack. No way you can get to Berlin on time, and even with the ef box pulled from, it's Feb. '45, and the Russian's just took Warsaw, and have not pressed my opponent once.

I love the game, but being WA is very frustrating, and vp's are very hard to get after Jan. 44. Flak also seems to be way more effective than was the case, and I'm not abusing my air strikes, but my aircraft pools are all dry for recon planes, and several other models. I fly around flak, fly with escorts, and baby my crews and my losses seem a bit excessive. I have no saves as all my games are server games atm. I just hope we can start a new dialogue about the vp system, the air war, and the Ef box. I don't want to lose the ef box, but it's hurting the game more than helping it, but it's still a good idea.

As it is, there doesn't seem to be a way to win against a player of equal or better skill.

Is it not balanced if equally skilled players play equally well that a draw/minor victory should most likely result?



marion61 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 1:57:24 PM)

I see what your saying, but that wasn't my point. My point was that playing a player of equal value as it is, probably won't even net a draw. I don't mind losing, but not from artificial means. I'll congratulate anyone that out plays me, and I have. I am finding it frustrating as the WA to keep it at a draw, even when I'm playing someone of equal skill (which we have both agreed to).

Honestly I never use the 9th until spring of '44, and I rest my bombers constantly. I think of the air war like an offensive. While your on the offensive the planes fly to achieve their goals, and when the offensive objectives are achieved (i.e. u-boats) I just set them to rest if they're morale is below 70, and during an offensive I've flown them as low as 40, but then they rest. Also during the winter I won't fly in very poor weather, the op losses are too high. My pilots love me, but they are telling me they aren't getting enough replacement planes😉.

Your invasion of Northern France can still get hurt, so don't slack on the naval. He probably has teenagers flying the planes, but it seems no matter how many you've killed they can put up a lot of planes. I'm in Feb.45 in one server game and my recon says I'm shooting down 600-1000+ planes the past several turns and I don't see how. I don't have a specific point here, just saying it seems strange the LW can still fly with that many planes. This was my reply to Carklay.



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 2:32:35 PM)

The VP system has been the elephant in the room since beta.

As it stands now I don't see a way the Allies can actually win, unless they ignore the Med completely, and just beeline to berlin from '43 on in order to get the early victory points. I haven't tested this, but I might try it against the AI.

I don't get the negative Vps for allied losses. Germany should be the side caring about losses. But as I have played both sides, I can definitely tell you that when I am Axis, I attack as much as I can in order to inflict Allied losses, every turn. This will wear down the Allies to the point where even if I break from manpower as Germany, I will still win. I just focus on the weaker allied units such as american armor and british brigades. Their rout and retreat losses are high enough to net me 10-20 vps a turn.

Addittionally, the VP system for the uboats and v-launch sites are an auto-win button for Axis. If you are axis, you basically don't have to do anything to acccumulate negative vps. If the allies falter, then they lose vps. This is doubly frustrating too as you have to inflict losses in order to stop negative vps, and it is ultimately a random variable to even damage them. Do you think they are going to use any airpower to V-weapons in '44 when they have a massive invasion to support? It just breaks them every game I have played....both sides. As axis I'll just priority repair all my sites on auto-fix and move in flak...

I've held Meklore at Paris until Feb-March of '45, and every advance he has made since '44 I have made him pay. I do not care about the integrity of the Wehrmacht, I care about wearing down the Allies and racking up VPs. If my army breaks, I retreat and he will take attrition losses advancing. If I break entirely, I will pull from the EF box. and fresh units will take their spot. It really needs to be fixed.

Oh and the EF box. Yes, you may say that if I keep pulling from it, I will lose. Well, the Russians just took Warsaw in the middle of Feb '45. They are way behind schedule. It's not hard to transfer over airgroups which don't net me any benefit on the west for INF divisions that will inflict more allied losses. Since the EF box is too abstract by just using pure CV, you are essentially trading VPs. One INF division is about 1-3 CV on the east front, but an airgroup is higher in CV. So why not trade and then use that INF to net me 10 or more VPs on the west? From now on I am playing with EF off in multi.



Baelfiin -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 3:03:47 PM)

That is a good point about the EF box NOSB.

You guys should post a couple screenshots of your game



smokindave34 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 3:14:03 PM)

I think the VP system needs some refinement but its a HUGE improvement over WITE. I particularly like the fact that you pay a penalty for taking actions that are ahistorical (axis garrison of cites/sectors and allies political price for high casualties). There certainly needs to be some tweaking based on multiplayer outcomes but I think we start WITW in a pretty good spot with the VP system



carlkay58 -> RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis) (2/6/2015 3:33:48 PM)

The VP system probably will not be adjusted until we have had some games reach the end. Until that time everything is subjective and the end game scoring (early end, etc.) may alter things quite a bit - I know that in the last game I finished against the AI the number of VPs I was collecting once I got into Germany were pretty large. Every city you capture in Germany gives you the bombing points for all of the industries each turn - and early game ending gives you the rest of the turns' worth of VPs WITHOUT losses so it can be a huge lump.

That said, I do think it will be tweaked a lot over the next year or so as more games reach the end.



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