2.3 - I like what I see (Full Version)

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ADavidB -> 2.3 - I like what I see (3/9/2003 8:40:18 PM)

Last night I had a chance to play version 2.3 for a few too many hours and I'm quite happy with all the changes. Already the sub behavior is showing up nicely - I never liked having to shove "all" my subs into some port - and the US tac bombers are no longer "certain death in the skies" for Japanese TFs. This has been balanced out quite nicely because the US tac bombers can still do a number on ships that are at anchor.

These changes ought to make the Japanese side more competitive in more of the scenarios without having to make the settings too ahistoric. All-in-all, a great set of updates and a great job.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi



Mike_B20 -> (3/9/2003 10:18:01 PM)

Has anyone noticed a difference in effectiveness of Airocobras and Kittyhawks as CAP early on in scenario 17.
I have been playing scenario 17 as allies versus the ai and in pre 2.3 games the allied CAP in Port Moresby put up some sort of show though it was still tough.
Playing 3.2, ten allied planes are downed for each zero downed.
Don't think I've been playing any different but the results seem to favor the zero much more now.

Also, is there a command for setting CAP only?
Often I'd like to set CAP with no other mission to reduce fatigue.
However, if I set long range cap as mission and reduce the CAP from 100% it sets up a sweep mission and if I try escort as the mission the reserve cap flies with the bomber sorties, raising fatigue. Even if I set the escort destination to the hex I want protected the escort still fly to other destinations with the bombers.



pad152 -> (3/10/2003 12:10:50 AM)

Experience and Moral

It seems experience is the key, airgroups with low experience (less then 70) and moral come out on the short end of air battles. You really need to keep and eye on airgroups and rotate them out of PM to build up moral.

Allied level bomber seem to start making more hits once their experience is over 70.



Mike_B20 -> (3/10/2003 12:16:08 AM)

Yes, experience, morale and fatigue play an important part.

I have been rotating CAP regularly, though it would be a lot easier if there was a CAP mission that could be set at say 40%.

Seems 2.3 zeroes are just deadly, Hard_Sarge posted the same observation one minute before my post.

Edit: Also, another thing I've noticed, after the fighters duke it out the attack on bombers is much reduced. Often the bombers are barely touched.
I've even seen a combat of twenty P39 CAP not intercept an unescorted Betty bombing raid.



Mr.Frag -> (3/10/2003 1:09:47 AM)

Mike, those deadly zero's that start at Rabaul have skills in the 80+ range. Your poor P-39D/P-40E groups at PM have skills in the 50 range.

You are going to loose, it's a SURE thing.

Kinda falls in the catagory of giving your kid a brand new car the day they get their drivers licence. You could, but the car's survival rate is not very high :D

You are better off using these guys to Bomb the crap out of Morobe till they get some skills and fill in the units.

Also remember that even a poor skill pilot with low fatigue does well against a high skill pilot with high fatigue. Let 'em bomb you and get tired, then put all your rested cap up at once, then stand 'em all down ... you simply do not have the airforce to stop Japan in May '42. Need to be very selective about picking your fights.

The A6M2 while being not up for a match against second generation Allied planes, ruled the sky in early '42.



Mike_B20 -> (3/10/2003 1:38:55 AM)

I can accept that the zoroes in 42 were better but I'd llike to see some statistics on what actually happened there (gonna go search the web after this post for some data).
If the 2.3 zeroes are here to stay I can see absolutely no chance of the allies holding PM. Heard it was very tough pre 2.3...now surely it is impossible.
No matter how fresh the allies are in PM they lose huge each Jap bombing run and they lose experienced pilots rapidly.



Mr.Frag -> (3/10/2003 2:07:00 AM)

[QUOTE]If the 2.3 zeroes are here to stay I can see absolutely no chance of the allies holding PM[/QUOTE]

Thats perfectly ok. Loosing PM does not constitute a Allied loss or a Japan win.

I think a lot of folks have been USA biased up until now, and reality is starting to kick in that in '42, the Allied player is hanging on by his fingernails at best.

Historically, Japan was kneecapped by losses at Midway and the Allied were still hurting. In the games we play, Japan is not hurting from a failed Midway so can bring her full might into this theater. Those first 74 turns of the game should be extremely bloody for the Americans, falling back all over the place, trading space for time prior to the arrival of the 1st Marines.

The Allies get to reverse the flood and come right on back, but not until late in '42.

Personally, I like this twist in patch events (Japan without Midway SHOULD be able to put the Allies on the ropes for 4-5 months!).

It's a different game, more like it should be IMHO :)



pasternakski -> (3/10/2003 3:33:35 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Thats perfectly ok. Loosing PM does not constitute a Allied loss or a Japan win.

I think a lot of folks have been USA biased up until now, and reality is starting to kick in that in '42, the Allied player is hanging on by his fingernails at best.

Historically, Japan was kneecapped by losses at Midway and the Allied were still hurting. In the games we play, Japan is not hurting from a failed Midway so can bring her full might into this theater. Those first 74 turns of the game should be extremely bloody for the Americans, falling back all over the place, trading space for time prior to the arrival of the 1st Marines.

The Allies get to reverse the flood and come right on back, but not until late in '42.

Personally, I like this twist in patch events (Japan without Midway SHOULD be able to put the Allies on the ropes for 4-5 months!).

It's a different game, more like it should be IMHO :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Concur. Sc 17 offers a much better challenge now. I never really did like the artificial twist of the tail offered by sc 19.



madflava13 -> (3/10/2003 3:35:43 AM)

I don't mind the changes -- after all, it was only Japan's decision to turn back at Coral Sea that prevented an invasion historically. I don't know whether the invasion would have been successful, but the TF definitely could have reached PM as the US forces were pretty badly beat up. In a way, these changes to UV make the game MORE close to historical -- the Japanese probably should have taken PM in real life, they just made a bad call (same thing at Midway).

Like they say, "I'd rather be lucky than good..."



HawaiiFive-O -> (3/10/2003 2:50:23 PM)

Woof!

The Zeros are on fire now in my game.

I yearn for the days when I could trade 3 P-39s for 1 A6M2, 3 P-40s for 2 A6M2s, and 3 F4F-4s for 3 A6M2s.

Since the patch, I haven't won a single air battle. Some of this is going to be fatigue related, as the Zeros are so long ranged that I can't really threaten their home bases (yet), so they don't get tired doing CAP work, while my squadrons do.

I'm rotating, trying different altitudes, standing down, screaming at the screen- nothing's working.

Not complaining, Drex certainly deserves to have some fun at my expense, I've definitely had the upper hand until this point.

It makes for a different game, though. Geez those P-38s stockpile real slow. When does the Corsair start showing up? ;)



Drongo -> (3/10/2003 4:52:48 PM)

Posted by HawaiiFiveO
[QUOTE]It makes for a different game, though. Geez those P-38s stockpile real slow. When does the Corsair start showing up?[/QUOTE]

Unless the P-38s have good pilots, they'll still be outfought by the A6M3 with an expert pilot.

When the F4Us show up though. :eek: :eek: :eek: Doesn't matter how good a Zero pilot is.

Just finished a scen 17 game (allies vs AI japs) which had been played all through the beta test (for testing of course). The appearance of the F4Us destroyed a nicely balanced little air war that had raged for about 9 months.

They were sometimes killing at up to 30 to 1 against jap fighters while flying CAP over my forward bases. One F4U pilot was nearing 40 kills when the game ended (not bad for just over 6 months in play). Because they were not taking many losses for their kills, the F4U squadrons experience levels were all going into the 80s.

If only a PBEM jap player would throw himself against the Corsairs like that.



Hard Sarge -> (3/11/2003 4:17:31 PM)

Well not to beat a dead horse

but again, my game is scen 14, so it is not May and the Allies are not holding on by there toenails

but air to air, there is no fight, if the Allies fight the Zero, they get shot down, the Cats are losing about 10 planes for every 3 they shoot down

the only reason it is not a JP run away, is the Zero's are losing 7 to 10 planes a day to OP losses

but on the other hand, Zero's can't fight bombers, 6 17's go to Rebual, 60 Zero's and 20 Ocsars and 6 17's bomb Rebaul

I have played 2 months now , top Marine unit has 27 kills, top Army unit is 7 (P-400 caught an betty raid) top Navy unit has 17 (again a Betty raid slipped in with out it's excourt) top Aussie has 10 (next has 2)

(Strange one of the 39 units on PM, 2nd day of the war, Mcgee shot down 5 Betties, a mate got another one, 2 months later, the unit still only has 6 kills, action is Heavier over Lunga way, but about once every 3 days a raid comes into PM)

and this is with IJN losing 2 CV's, 2 CVL's, 3 BB's 5 CA's to my CV's

Buna and Russell have fallen, Lunga is a size 6 base

finnally gave in and check the other side out, to see how off FOW was telling me what was going on, strange part, Shortland have 80 + Zero's, 20 Vals and 20 Rufes, Rebaul, around 100 Zero's, 25-30 Oscars and 6 Betties

but Truk has like 6 full strength Betty and Nell units and 2 other units with around 9 planes each ????????, why is the AI keeping it's bombers back, a 80 Zero, 80 Betty/Nell raid would sink almost my entire CV fleet that is chokeing his supply line

HARD_Sarge



Krec -> (3/11/2003 5:10:48 PM)

well i've tried 2.3 and i must say it has reinstalled my faith. i put the game down due to the insane air attacks against well defended bases in 2.2. i due believe the problem is fixed. just finished coral and not once did my planes stray off my master plan and attack a unwanted based. great job guys. btw i sunk the 3 jap carriers and almost got the yorktown into port mosbey for repairs. she sunks 3 hexes shy. the lexington made it through the scenario without a scratch!! allied major was in order and all is well again. once again great job matrix!!:D



Hard Sarge -> (3/11/2003 5:22:46 PM)

I not so sure, I got my CV's parked out side of Shortland, and the CV won't attack the ships sitting in Shortland and Shortland won't attack the CV, both sides "know" there are fighters flying cap, so won't attack it ?

(LOL anything that moves outside of Shortland don't last long, just sank a 7 AP fleet that tried to go back to Truk)

I have had one CV battle (and that was a IJN CV/CVL vs a single US CV while the 3 CV TF sat above the IJN and blew them apart, good bait) and have had 1 air attack on my CV's, 6 Betties, the Zero's forgot to take off ?

LBA will attack land bases, but will try to hit the weaker base ?, seems to know if there is Cap up or not, it was hammering Russell with that base not haveing any Cap on it, moved my Cats over, and that day, the strikes were all on Lunga, move Cap from Gili to PM and the strike is on Gili, move Cap from PM to Gili and the Strike hits PM (not that it matters)

HARD_Sarge



Hard Sarge -> (3/11/2003 8:06:47 PM)

don't take me wrong, I love the new sub rules, land combat looks good, even like the ghostbusters signs, but I think something is wrong with Cap and with the AI attack plotting (don't forget, even under human control, the AI plots the air strikes)

HARD_Sarge



Grotius -> (3/11/2003 9:22:06 PM)

Well, air combat seems better to me all around. I'm not seeing a dramatic shift in the effectiveness of the Zero, but then again most of my battles of late have been CV battles -- Zero vs. F4F. Maybe Zeroes are eating up Airacobras and Kittyhawks, though again I haven't seen a big difference. To the extent the Zero is tougher now, that's all to the good; it seemed underpowered to me in previous patches.

Targeting also seems better. My CV air groups have performed very well since the patch. My Betties and Nells in Rabaul don't fly unless the target is an undefended enemy tanker moving at 3 knots 4 hexes from Rabaul, but what else is new?

And I absolutely love the new sub routines. Now you really can use choke points, instead of just dumping subs into ports and waiting. And the lower chance of sub contact feels right. In general, subs seem to have been toned down, which makes for a more balanced game overall, IMHO.



Hard Sarge -> (3/11/2003 9:35:32 PM)

HI Grotius
well I wouldn't mind if it was the p-39 being eaten up, it is the Marine Cats and Navy Cats that are being pounded into the ground

last turn, 18 Zeros and 12 Betties tried to attack my CA force, 50 Cats bounced them, 2 Zero's for 5 Cats, Betty damage was all AA (hmm 50 to 18, should have a little advantage, didn't even get to the Betties)

have you seen your LBA attack any of the CV's ?

and the AI is putting up close to 100 planes on Cap over Rebaul, it gets an odd kill now and then, most times the blue line at the buttom of the screen after the fight is over (100 Zeros/Ocsars vs 3 to 9 B-17's, I think the Zero should get a few kills)

which scen you playing ? most seem to be on 17 or 19, I am on 14, so don't know if what I am seeing is based on that or not

HARD_Sarge



Mike_B20 -> (3/12/2003 3:51:58 AM)

Hi Hard Sarge,

You asked if anyone had seen land based air attacking CV's.

I have been messing about as allies against the ai in scenario 17.

Silly me, I have been experimenting with reducing CAP on my CV taskforce to reduce fatigue (will I never learn? Consistently getting my butt kicked so far doing this) prior to an expected confrontation with the Jap carriers.
Rabaul based Betty's attacked my capless CV TF and sunk a carrier :o

The ai does seem to know when something has CAP



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 2:23:25 PM)

Hi Mike
sorry mate, hope it was just a test game, but yes, if the AI see's the Cap drop, it will come in (which that looks like a cheat to me, put 100 fighters on Russell and on Lunga, stand down all of them on Russell with Lunga up, the AI will attack Russell, replay the turn, shut down Lunga and stand up Russell, the AI will attack Lunga, it knows where the cap is at)(which don't seem to matter none)

my game is getting close to DEC 42 (starts in Aug) my CV TF's have been attacked 3 times by LBA (3 Val's and 12 Zero's attacked, 50 Cat's, and a Val put a bomb into the Wasp, unreal)

best luck I have had to make it attack, is to put another TF in the same hex with the CV

HARD_Sarge



Grotius -> (3/12/2003 8:32:25 PM)

Heya Hard Sarge,

I'm playing 3 PBEMs as IJN in #17, and one as USN in #19. (Heh, I like a challenge.) It's early, so my A6M2 Zeroes (with the occasional A6M3) are fighting their F4F-4s in CV battles, but so far the balance seems good to me.

You're right, 50 Zeroes don't seem to be able to shoot down one B-17, but it is true that Zero pilots historically had lots of trouble with the 17. In any case, that particular issue was argued to death (and tested to death) in the "open beta" thread that led to patch 2.20. (Before 2.20, B-17s used to shoot down Japanese fighters in droves!)

Nope, my LBA hasn't attacked any CVs in any of my PBEM games, except for one strange little pre-2.30 B-17 run against a TK that happened to be in the same hex as about 100 CV-based fighters. My games are still in the early going, so I haven't had much opportunity for such attacks yet.



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 9:06:06 PM)

Hi Grotius
roger, I am wondering if I got a bad download or something ?

I watched one of the smaller fights, and seen 9 Zero's go up vs a pack of US fighters, and was smiling like a fool when I watched a p-40 group pick off 7 Zero's in a row, zero destroyed, on screen, zero would turn red, and then the count would drop by one, then right at the end, a p-39 got another one, and I was like yea baby, 8 out of 9, now I can live with that

battle ends, report says 2 Zeros killed ? heck I seen on the screen it telling me destroyed ?, end of turn, the JP lost 2 zero's

so any more, I am not sure if the reports are wrong, if thre planes are being shot down but not dieing

but have seen lots of strange attacks

hitting shortland, got Munda and La Vella, Russell and Lunga, so can put up some nice numbers over the field, 50 + allied fighters and 9 Zeros, first comment, is Zeros climbing to attack bombers, zero bounces bomber

on my side, my fighters will only fight the zero and seems like the zero is always attacking and they are not, when they on the defence, they bypass the fighters and go right into the bombers, which, they don't do much

I did a H2H test of Scen 14, put all the Allied fighters in the area into PM and just attacked PM, shut PM down in 12 days (not counting a number of cloud days where no attack came over) so would say in 8 days of attacks, I shut down PM with Betties and Nells and didn't take major damage(in 12 days, I lost more to OP then to Flak or air to air, and didn't start losing planes to OP until around the 5th day)

so don't know if my game is screwed up, if my computer/OS is screwing up the patch (like some of us had before) not getting much feed back on if others are seeing what I am seeing, but also not getting feed back they they are getting any kind of numbers vs what I am seeing

I can see the P-39 losing more then they kill, the p-40 should be a back and forth, some days good, some days bad, the Cat should hold its own and the 38 should start turning the tide

well I am losing 10 Cats for every 3 Zeros they knock down (lol and that is adding in the odd Betty or Val they can catch) the 38 is a little better then 1 to 1, don't even want to try and figured out the 39, but the odd one is the P-40, it is only around 1 for 2

if it wasn't for the OP losses I would be in trouble in my game, that and the fact the AI likes to hoard all of it's bombers up in Truk and won't commit them to battle

HARD_Sarge



Erik Rutins -> Response... (3/12/2003 9:22:31 PM)

Sarge,

Are you playing with Fog of War off? It's necessary to do so if you want to get accurate test results. The best way to do it is head to head, fog of war off - you control both sides and can make sure the testing is controlled.

Regards,

- Erik



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 10:16:51 PM)

Hi Erik
thanks for replieing

well normally have FOW on, but I can always try a new game to see if that makes any difference

I mean the AI is losing Zeros and loseing lots and lots of them, but the combat numbers in the data/info screen, is showing small combat losses and large OP losses

well it is into Dec of 43 now, scen 14, starts in Aug

so numbers are changeing, which as of now it is 462 lost to combat, 200 on the deck (CV's sinking) 212 to Flak and 301 to OP

(which end of first month it was around 70 to combat, 133 to sinking and 170 to OP)

I was getting a lot of 84 Zero and 6 Betty attacks, at one time, I just pulled my fighters out, 6 Betties were not going to do anything, and 4 Cat Squadrons would not put up enough fighters to fight the Zeros

in fact, most of the battles I watched, I tend to close the air to air and watch the scrolling messages to see how each pilot is doing, and then watch the bombing attacks, the Vals or Betties were always untouched. every once in a while you get the raid were the fighters forgot to show up, but after the first pass, the bombers break off action, so you end up with maybe 1 kill or 1 damaged and the rest running for home

I go start up a new game now and see if FOW makes it look right

HARD_Sarge



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 10:47:11 PM)

Hi Erik
LOL this is strange ?

watching the fight, the first air to air, I counted the screen showing 25 P-39's as destroyed, but end report only showed 6 ?

you know the area where it tells what is going on in the fight, climbing, diving, getting on the tail, then p-39 damaged,or p-39 killed, it goes red, I counted that 25 times in the first fight

but will say, I am getting to the bombers now, last time I started the game, I couldn't get to the bombers (of course, it is early, only 24 Zeros last raid, which so far after 2 raids I am in the lead !!!!!, 17 kills to 16 losses, last time it was like 5 to 40

hate to say it, but remember one of the other patches didn't work right the first game I tired it, had to restart another game before it started to work right (which this was a new start)

I'll run about 10 more turns, and see if it sitcks or not

but it is nice seeing it attack the bombers, last game it never got close to them

HARD_Sarge



Mr.Frag -> (3/12/2003 11:24:01 PM)

If pilot claims were taken at face value, every plane ever built would have been shot down 10 times. The reason gun cameras were installed on aircraft was to try and get some form of factual data out of these claims. Using what pilots claim as hard intel is very dangerous. Always take it with a grain of salt.

I'm curious about turning FoW off to play. It seems to cause VERY dramatic changes in how things happen due to the game knowing way too much about everything. Does this not apply in a head to head game? The standard example of FoW off is the Bettys & Nells flying down to Townsville to poach a convoy that would never have been spotted in the first place ;)



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 11:27:00 PM)

Hi Erik
I don't understand what is going on
if I watch the air to air battle, I show one side or the other getting toar apart, but the end results are not close to what I had just watched, but turn out about even, say 4 Zeros for 5 P-39s

but if I click off the battle and watch it scroll, I get clobbered, 1 zero for 9 or 10 p-39s

this battle

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/12/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on TF, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19
G4M1 Betty x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 6
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
P-400 Airacobra x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra x 5 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra x 1 damaged

ENS C. Isozaki of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 3


from watching the battle fight out, every P-400 was shot down, every F4F4 was shot down or damaged, but the F4F3's were not touched, the F3's attacked the bombers, got the first kill and the bombers broke off and ran home

I think I am going to uninstall the game and redownload the patch, if others were seeing what I am seeing they would be screaming, but since they are not, it must be my game

LOL nasty move when you land at Lunga, just move up to shortland and pick off all the transport in the area, I picked off about 20 of them waiting to see if the Cats would fight

HARD_Depressed_Sarge



Hard Sarge -> (3/12/2003 11:39:28 PM)

Hi Mr Frag
yea bud, but we talking about a game, with numbers and reports, now it is one thing for VMF-223 to claim 50 kills today, but does the system give them 50 kills to there total or does it give it 5

I have played into Dec and my best unit has 40 + kills, the 2nd best is in the 20's

one of my CV Cats is still under 10 kills, it was on close to a 3 month trip and got less then 10 kills ? as I posted, one of the IJN pilots got 9 kills in one mission, more then a squadron during 3 months of fighting

I got squadrons that have been in the war for 1 to 2 months that do not even have a kill yet, and have been in a number of fights

the first unit to change over to 38's was in the middle of all the fights for PM, it had 3 kills

it is not what the pilot is saying or claiming, it is what is being shot down, by how ever the system figures combat out

HARD_Sarge



crsutton -> (3/13/2003 12:12:47 AM)

Well, I like the changes. I think that it pretty much makes scen 19 as the Americans too difficult against a competent players as the only real tool the Americans had (in the early goings) was their killer subs. However, scen 17 should be lots of fun and will be the most balanced. Subs will be less dominant. I am not worried about killer zeros as pilot skill degrades pretty fast and that is the key to American victory. In scen 17, even moderate Japanese plane losses are hard to take. The Americans can lose planes.

Historically, air to air combat losses were very light. Due to the long flight range for Japanese planes and poor forward facilties for all combatants-operational losses far exceeded combat losses. The problem for Japan is that operational losses frequently meant the loss of pilots and aircrews as well. Of course, in game terms, if the Japanese own Lunga and Morsby, their operations losses should be less as it is the Allies that would have to fly over water to attack.

All in all, they have done a great job fixing things.



medicinman -> air to air too light (3/13/2003 6:37:08 AM)

I read this post and see the two views (does it help the Japan or Allied player) and know what side each one plays to say this change in 2.3 is better or worse. I have been playing the allied side restart with 2.3 and the P-40 with almost no fatigue do not touch the zeros and barely get through to the bombers. A very MAJOR change compared to 2.2 results and strategy.

This "Air combat with big groups of planes, particularly those with high fatigue led to bloodbaths (40-60% losses per side) in version 2.20. An attempt has been made to tone this down, without impacting smaller air battles too much" doesn't seem like a large battle tone down not affecting smaller air battles.

I was hoping for a little bit of less air combat damage not a complete overhaul. Even when the P-40's go up even on the barely lose any and are lucky to pickoff 1 zero and/or 1 bomber. Should just sit them at home for that. :confused:

I do like some of the other changes regarding the realism correcting level bombers vs ships and subs, CV replacements etc.

I have noticed when watching a FOW air to air battle when the attacker fires at range then defender goes red is usually a kill, when the defender continues with red and red and red without a RANGE number those appear to not count in air loses daily report (I key).



ADavidB -> (3/13/2003 7:05:30 AM)

I've been following the posts here, and all the while I've been playing a number of scenarios, including 16, 17 and 19. I haven't noticed the Allied fighters getting knocked off in May/June 42 any more than I remember in earlier versions of the game. And the fighters continue to catch Japanese bombers, despite the presence of large numbers of Japanese escort fighters in some cases.

Of course, I'm fanatical about rotating my fighters in and out of PM, keep plenty of supply there, bomb the c*r*a*p out of nearby bases to make the Japanese player fly in from Raboul, and do plenty of diversionary tactics to keep the Japanese from focusing all their assets on PM.

And there is nothing like threatening to the East with carriers to keep the Japanese carriers from spending too much time around PM.

Plus, I've really learned to love the new "in passage" ability of my subs to hit TFs - put six or more subs in the various hexes at the east end of NG and you can find out a lot more about TF movements than you can from air recon alone.

So all-in-all, I'm really pleased with v2.30

Dave Baranyi



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