Thinking about buying (Noob question) (Full Version)

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jamus34 -> Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 1:11:04 AM)

So...I'm relatively green as far as strategy games are concerned (put time into PG2, PC and more recently advance wars) was wondering what exactly would I be getting myself into if I picked up WitP?

Should I look at something a little...lighter? If so, What direction would people suggest?

I am a big fan of grand strategy games (mostly paradox, CK2, EU3 & 4) but looking to get into something that places more emphasis on battles and less on the empire (so to speak).

Any thoughts, ideas or options are more than welcome!



wdolson -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 1:22:52 AM)

WitP:AE is a very large operational level game. You do get a lot of involvement in each battle, but there is a certain amount of logistics to deal with too.

For some people AE is the most addictive game they have ever picked up. It's overwhelming popularity here is testament to that. For some other people, it would probably drive them crazy.

It is a very detailed game (possibly the most detailed computer war game ever made), but IMO, it's very rewarding too if you take the time to plumb its depths.

Bill



dr.hal -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 1:27:37 AM)

Well this is certainly THE strategy game, but with lots of battles! You don't have control over the battle (other than the forces sent into it, preparation, etc.) but it is still great to watch the replays! But realize that this is a mega game (WITP-AE) and will reduce your social life to a thing of the past. But one thing is important, you need to really have an interest in the Pacific war and the details in it. Because if there is one game that has details, this is it. Are you into Dutch forces? This is your game... Do you really want the Gurkhas to kick butt? It's here too. Do you really think the Swordfish can change the tide in early '42? You are welcome to try! Lots of fun... Welcome aboard. Hal



Misconduct -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 1:34:24 AM)

I agree with wdolson says, now here is the key: the game is extremely challenging, there is a steep learning curve along with it. Was it worth it? Yep. The day WITPAE came out I printed the manual and read through it in a few days; I figured out the game in less than 3 weeks, the AI while it isn't any "good" (I mean think about it; the AI cannot predict anything like a human player would) its great to practice on, at least till you get the "idea" down.

Most games when I get through with it I simply toss the Manual, its been a number of years since AE was released, I still have mine sitting nicely on a shelf :)

/played Panzer General for years, been in tournaments for it until 2008 - now its Panzer Corps which is the upgrade of it.
//Some love AE, some really can't handle the "logistical" nightmare the game brings, so it really depends on you whether you are willing to learn the game. I had no patience, and boy is WITP:AE a Patience burner... but I buy it again in a heart beat if I ever lost my copy of it....and pay full price of it!



Menschenfresser -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 2:15:14 AM)

Jamus -- I can relate. It has taken me twenty plus years to arrive at this game. And that includes trying its predecessor version. It's interesting that you mention paradox games. In some ways, WitP is more like those games (parts of them anyway) than games that derive their game play directly from counter-based boardgames where you can micromanage how units clash. As far as combat is concerned, the difference from paradox games is that you can't do all that movement fiddling where you chase enemy stacks from territory to territory, trying to get your arrival time earlier than their departure time. Never liked that myself. WitP is hands off.

If you like making neat little piles of ships and planes, fiddling with a bunch of settings in the hopes you can configure the present to account for the future, telling them to sail somewhere and watching the fur fly when your stack runs into the enemy's, while being completely helpless to intervene. This is game is for you.



BattleMoose -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 2:30:28 AM)

This game is extremely daunting and demanding! But the caveat is that it is also extremely rewarding.

I only really got into it after my third(?) attempt.

Maybe consider Hearts of Iron 3, also a WWII simulation and a paradox game. I got so frustrated with it and its "features" that I arrived at WITP but it might be a more accessible place to start.



Sardaukar -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 10:17:24 AM)

One can see the popularity easily by comparing the amount of topics/posts with other Matrix forum games. The fact that WitP-AE is still the most active forums among all is quite a statement for game that was released 2009. [8D]



jamus34 -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 10:45:39 AM)

Agreed that the staying power of this game is unreal and a testament to it's quality. My main issue issue usually is getting into a game. Probably took me 20 hours to get into ck2 and maybe 30 hours for dw:u.
I actually found pg2 and panzercorps easier to get into due to the early campaign being little more than a tutorial.
Time availability is also an issue...no social life as I have 3 small kids who take up most of my available time as it is. I get maybe 1-2 hours an evening to game and my concern is that is not enough to devote to a game of this scale.
Anyway thank you everyone for the input!



Itdepends -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 10:56:35 AM)

PG is much simpler than this. CK/EU3 is getting closer. HOI 2 or 3 would be a good comparison.

IMO if you've run full campaigns in HOI, EU or Vicki then this game will be something that is not too much of a step up if playing the alied side.

Suggest playing the smaller scenarios first and then the grand campaign against the AI before starting a grand campaign as a PBEM. Games that last years in real life are common.

Edit, 1 to 2 hrs a night is enough to get through a turn, particularly in the early war ( after the first week) as the allies. Playing in a team helps the workload as well.



HansBolter -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 11:04:40 AM)

The real richness of this game is in the database.

Its immense. Stats on everything.

Some turns I get distracted for upward of an hour or more simply digging into the database.

Gee, maybe I'll have a look now at how my pilot skill gains are coming along in my front line squadrons.

Then maybe I'll take a look at the skill gains in my training squadrons to see if any pilots are ready to transfer to reserve.

Then maybe I'll peer into the ship crew skill levels of my port patrolling maintenance TFs to see if they are approaching maximum.

Then maybe I'll dig into the plane production pool and schedule to see what new plane types I'll be getting in a few days when the turn of the month arrives.

Then maybe I'll look into the LCU device pool to see how many and what types of mines I have available and at what rate they are accumulating.

Then maybe I'll take a look at the experience levels of my Chinese troops since they are the ones in combat the most and likely to be making decent gains.

All this and I haven't issued a single order.

The database is so rich and deep and immense one can lose oneself in it and never come out again!



tigercub -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 11:30:41 AM)

+1 Hans

there is no game like it ever made but war in the west must be coming close!

Tigercub



m10bob -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 2:35:52 PM)

At least fifty times now, we have seen posts from good folks asking if they should purchase this game.

Price is usually their immediate concern, and this should NOT be a concern, if you consider this to be a game which will not be collecting dust this time a year from now.

Many of us started playing this game engine with "Uncommon Valor" at least a decade ago, played the original WITP after that...and saw it evolve into this, the greatest of them all, WITP "Admirals Edition".

Do NOT allow prior posters to turn you away when the honestly say it is a detailed game.
The thing is...you do not need to know everything on day one. (Some posters have admitted that after years of playing it, they are STILL learning things about it..THAT is the most important point about this game.
So long as you have time, and love history, this is THE game for your buck.

I have played this game maybe twenty times, and the first six(at least) only lasted maybe a month, because every time I learned something MAJOR.....it was like a kid finding yet another toy which just HAD to be played with RIGHT NOW!!!!

I recommend all new players start with one of the smaller scenarios at first as it might be easier to understand the concept.
The designers (IMHO) were pretty straight forward, everything is "common sense" and this will be understood as you go along..

This forum itself was just MADE for folks who have curious minds....and many of us here are dying for the chance to embellish our own egos by helping other people.
To this day...I still have questions about some things, and I promise SOMEBODY here will have the answer..

Pay attention to folks with the title "MOD" behind their names...they will know the answer, or where to find it..

Now....about the price...Look at it...Now, consider everybody here paid that price, and you can take for granted this kind of game will NOT attract any dumbazzes.....
Now...take that price and divide it by the many hours you will play it ..(It will be *years*..)

At present, I figure it has cost me a few cents per hour, and I have learned ever so much about the history of this war.

The Pacific War alone has been the largest war in the history of the world.

This game represents that war as good as we will likely see in our lives.

Welcome to the Pacific...you have many friends waiting..............[;)]



jamus34 -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 2:57:29 PM)

Thanks everyone. I think I will jump in and test the water.
Bob - I learned a long time ago as far as per hour entertainment that video games in general cannot be beat. So while the cost is somewhat daunting it's not anything make our break for me, I look at it as a late birthday gift :)



Yaab -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 3:05:37 PM)

jamus 34, WITP:AE is not a game for everyone. If you want a Pacific WWII game with aviation gas, napalm, incendiaries, parachuted fragmentation bombs, Japanese air-dropped phosphorus bombs, coal-powered ships, proper tugs, railroad interdiction, tankers with "skeleton decks", pilot training losses, ARU ships for your B-29s, and cavalry moving at horse speed, than WITP:AE does not have them, but it does have everything else. Actually, in Air Human Resources Department the game has the Gary Oldman's "EVERYONEEE!".



Misconduct -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 3:20:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamus34


quote:

Time availability is also an issue...no social life as I have 3 small kids who take up most of my available time as it is. I get maybe 1-2 hours an evening to game and my concern is that is not enough to devote to a game of this scale.


You know its interesting, when I first came on on board in 2008 I didn't create an account for WITP, I was just a lurker; I was 25 years old and starting my own business (rental property). I decided to shell out the money for Admirals addition the day it came out because of two reasons: It would save me thousands on bar trips (Social Life was sunk by 2 torpedoes)...and secondly running rental property with 50 tenants around me means I stay busy most of the day without a break. AE gives me the best option because I can tinker with my turn all day for few minutes here and there between breaks. I had a wonderful PBEM opponent (Hooter) before he passed away last year along with my dad. I haven't had the interest in AE until I seen this latest "patch".
I didn't shy away from MG's though, I've actually been playing Eagle Day: bombing the reich - another great strategy title for cheap compared to how many hours I have invested in it!

Matrix Games: Saving you money from Bar trips one hour at a time.

Edit: I failed to mention I was a lurker because as a person who has visited many many gaming forums, the "crowd" tends to be hostile to new players - well that is not true for matrixgames. No matter how "stupid" a question is; someone is always willing to help/answer it. By far the nicest group of players I have come across, and that is what made me make my account.



Mundy -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 3:24:42 PM)

I'm thankful I grew up on UV back in '02.  It let me grow into it fairly easily.

80% of this game is getting stuff shipped from one spot to another.



HansBolter -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 3:28:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I'm thankful I grew up on UV back in '02.  It let me grow into it fairly easily.

80% of this game is getting stuff shipped from one spot to another.


UV was such an awesome game.

Best time I ever had playing it was head to head.

A wargame buddy would meet me at a coffee shop after work and we played it head to head on a laptop.

After the first turn it rarely took more than 5-10 minutes to execute orders.

The real fun was watching the turn resolution playback together with each of us cheering our forces on.



jamus34 -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 4:01:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I'm thankful I grew up on UV back in '02.  It let me grow into it fairly easily.

80% of this game is getting stuff shipped from one spot to another.

I think I read it in a book somewhere (probably a novel, don't shoot me) that an amateur talks about strategy a veteran talks logistics



Mundy -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 4:16:47 PM)

You'll get that... in spades.

The biggest thrill is getting to pull the trigger on a long planned offensive.

I'm learning my geography too.

In old WITP, I was always afraid to start the big campaign, because of the geography of some areas.  The DEI looked like a big mess to me.  I started the campaign on War Plan Orange which eased me into it nicely.  That game was a more relaxed version of WITP.  I would love to see it get the AE treatment.



Anthropoid -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 4:32:44 PM)

It is IMO also by far and away the best historical strategic war game ever made. Like they say "No pain, no gain," and in the case of WiTPAE, once you get past that pain period and feel you have enough of an understanding of the complex, bubbling soup of details you are swimming in, you will take great pleasure in every tiny little decision you make as part of your larger overall strategy.



m10bob -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 4:36:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamus34


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I'm thankful I grew up on UV back in '02.  It let me grow into it fairly easily.

80% of this game is getting stuff shipped from one spot to another.

I think I read it in a book somewhere (probably a novel, don't shoot me) that an amateur talks about strategy a veteran talks logistics



Jamus...I forgot to mention...Time constraints are one of your concerns....Well, YOU have the ability to choose how long each turn is to a large extent by how elaborate you wish to have the computer playback the actual days activities..My turns last approx 20 minutes per day (including my slow planning), and I just see no reason to see all the aerial fights displayed since the results of ALL combat are kept track of by the teletype at the end of the day..(Buttons at the top will give all the info from Combat Results to just Intel in general..)



Anthropoid -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 4:50:19 PM)

Re: what M10Bob just said about time . . . remember though that he has been playing the game for years. When you first start it might take a very long time just to "play" one turn in one of the smaller scenarios, much less the Grand Campaign.

In my case, I used to play WiTP against the AI a good bit 5 or more years ago. I also played War Plan Orange against the AI a good bit. I would say that after a couple years of playing those I was 'competent' against the AI, well . . . I could kick his ass! so maybe more than competent [:D] I bought WiTPAE but just didn't get into immediately after it came out; various things. AE is a lot different than WiTP, but I at least had solid familiarity with 75% of the engine and content in AE or something like that I'd guess.

Coming back to get into AE and dive into a PBEM this past couple weeks: it took me about 30 hours of browsing my opening turn, making a click or two, consulting the manual, consulting the forums, searching the wiki or google, etc. to get just a couple turns done. I'm sure as I progress it will speed up a lot. Someone recently said they could finish the "Allied Turn 1" of the Grand Campaign in about 8 hours and they had "lots of practice at restarting."



2ndACR -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 6:37:54 PM)

Anthro, you need to come back and join our weekly SOW games damn you.......................we need some Div commanders. Corps commanders we got, but really need a couple Div commanders.



Sardaukar -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 6:52:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamus34


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I'm thankful I grew up on UV back in '02.  It let me grow into it fairly easily.

80% of this game is getting stuff shipped from one spot to another.

I think I read it in a book somewhere (probably a novel, don't shoot me) that an amateur talks about strategy a veteran talks logistics


War in the Pacific - Accountant's Edition [:D]



Misconduct -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/17/2015 7:34:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

quote:

Like they say "No pain, no gain," and in the case of WiTPAE


I remember when me and Hooter played our first PBEM, I was allies and had to turtle well into late 1943. If you can imagine one turn a day, it took us almost 6-8 months before I could even attempt anything. I almost got bored with the game, literally spending months waiting and waiting...and my gamble paid off, Hooter was just learning the Japanese industry, at the same time we had a second PBEM going where I was playing the Japanese.. Such good friend he was, any industrial question I had; he answered. We were both beginners in the PBEM games then, and haven't played anyone so it was a great match up.

I made a friend for life; unfortunately Hooter passed this year :(



jamus34 -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/18/2015 1:05:17 PM)

Sorry to hear about your loss MC.

So I took the leap and ordered the hard copy version of WitP:AE last night. Got it downloaded but didn't get a chance to do much. I'll try to start reading the manual tonight and get started on this journey. Hopefully in a month or so I'll be up for trying some PBEM



m10bob -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/18/2015 1:17:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamus34

Sorry to hear about your loss MC.

So I took the leap and ordered the hard copy version of WitP:AE last night. Got it downloaded but didn't get a chance to do much. I'll try to start reading the manual tonight and get started on this journey. Hopefully in a month or so I'll be up for trying some PBEM




Welcome new friend...
Since the game was released, improvements (patches) have been coming out to improve the game and to fix any problems we players might have deemed as "problems"..
I know of no other game firm which allows so much input from its' players.

As improvements have been made, some things in the manual may have been made redundant, or otherwise wrong.
The forum is the perfect place to get serious help on these issues..
Go to "The Members Area" of the forums for the patches for the game....Gosh, the latest was JUST released a number of days ago, (thanks to Michael)..



cohimbra -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/18/2015 9:53:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

But one thing is important, you need to really have an interest in the Pacific war and the details in it.

I've to disagree. I'm never interested in the Pacific War, but I searched for a WWII air/naval game, and I find this forum. I took the plunge and now, after 3 years of continuous play I'm feel like Yamamoto and feel Pacific like a home (a home that need to be conquered [:D]).

And about the details...oh, I love the details, I love lost myself in the detail.

Best game ever, and I'm not a "Matrix fanboy", just a satisfied customer.

And now I must go, there's too much Essex class around, we need to do something. Yes, but what? [8D]



jamus34 -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/18/2015 10:15:04 PM)

Here's a pretty dumb question, what's the best way to get started?



Schanilec -> RE: Thinking about buying (Noob question) (3/18/2015 11:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

WitP:AE is a very large operational level game. You do get a lot of involvement in each battle, but there is a certain amount of logistics to deal with too.

For some people AE is the most addictive game they have ever picked up. It's overwhelming popularity here is testament to that. For some other people, it would probably drive them crazy.

It is a very detailed game (possibly the most detailed computer war game ever made), but IMO, it's very rewarding too if you take the time to plumb its depths.

Bill

"....,but there is a certain of logistics to deal with..."
Thank you Captain Understatment.[:D]



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