RE: Invasion West Coast!

RE: Invasion West Coast! (Full Version)

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JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/10/2016 8:41:49 PM)
Camp Pendleton _____________________________________________________________________________ Bombers come in. Sky is almost completely clear of enemy planes and the P39s protects the bombers. quote: Morning Air attack on Camp Pendleton , at 226,77 Weather in hex: Severe storms Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 13 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 15 Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 17 Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 7 Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 15 B-17F Fortress x 14 B-24D Liberator x 25 B-25C Mitchell x 34 B-26 Marauder x 3 P-39D Airacobra x 50 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 7 damaged Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 destroyed on ground A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed on ground Allied aircraft losses B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged B-26 Marauder: 1 damaged P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed Japanese ground losses: 73 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled) Airbase hits 22 Airbase supply hits 9 Runway hits 86 Sadly the weather prevents a knock out blow. Scattered bombers hitting the airfield later still finds a CAP up. Runway will be pretty beat up tomorrow and we will go in again. Corsairs and P47s will lead the way. [sm=00000028.gif] [image]local://upfiles/32406/71486EBCC6244A3ABB9EBFF54A2C83BA.jpg[/image]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/10/2016 8:49:31 PM)
Air losses _____________________________________________________________________________ Its hard to predict. The allies certainly took some losses today but mostly among the outdated P40Es. The "Ks" did really well and the replacement pool is in good shape. Japanese took another beating. His morale must be absolutely shot. I saw several messages of squadrons withdrawing. I think if anything that Jeff lost more planes today then he has done on any single day so far. Certainly more than 50 today. I think the Corsairs and P47s can deliver the knockout blow tomorrow. Or I´ll just send in another wave of P40s tomorrow. I have 125 not used in the sweeps today ready at SF. Depends on how much FAT the P47s have recovered.

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/10/2016 8:53:58 PM)
CL Detroit _____________________________________________________________________________ Sadly the KB found her and promptly put her under. A shame. [:(] Especially as I thought she would make it. This was the absolutely last thing that happened in the air phase. quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Eureka at 199,86 Weather in hex: Overcast Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 29 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 22 B5N2 Kate x 24 D3A1 Val x 11 D3A2 Val x 11 Allied aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed Allied Ships CL Detroit, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk DD Litchfield, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk The 2 damaged DDs from the Fletcher TF was also sunk by KB. Fletcher TF are safely back to SF without ever finding KB.

jwolf -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/10/2016 8:58:24 PM)
Sad for your cruisers but they did a great job against the mini KB. Your P40K Warhawks really did a great job as well. If I understand this right, you've cleared his LBA or made it unusable -- so either he covers with KB or concedes complete air superiority to you. Right?

Lokasenna -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/10/2016 10:41:22 PM)
His airfield is toasted. You won't even need to sweep. With that number of hits from 500 lb bombs, the airfield damage is going to be way up there.

CaptBeefheart -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 3:28:39 AM)
Omahas for CVLs is a good trade. Well done. Cheers, CC

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 3:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf If I understand this right, you've cleared his LBA or made it unusable -- so either he covers with KB or concedes complete air superiority to you. Right? Yes, pretty much that but with a twist. KB can´t really provide air cover as at least a good portion of the KB fighter squadrons have been doing LBA duty at Camp Pendleton. I assume their morale is pretty much shot by now. Not going to celebrate in advance but its not looking good for Japan in the air.

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 3:52:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna His airfield is toasted. You won't even need to sweep. With that number of hits from 500 lb bombs, the airfield damage is going to be way up there. You might be right but I´ll sweep anyway just to be safe. [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 3:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Cody Omahas for CVLs is a good trade. Well done. Cheers, CC Thanks. Would have been nice to save the Omahas but I can´t really complain now can I... [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 4:04:38 PM)
P47 _____________________________________________________________________________ This is the state of the P47 squadrons. Their value can certainly not be understated. To any JFB thinking about invading the WC in early 42: Remember that these arrive...[sm=00000028.gif] Kills: 107 Losses: 6 I still have 69 of these guys available. I can probably keep 1-2 squadrons operational until production start in July. Not an easy nut to crack for Jeff. [image]local://upfiles/32406/A025C5C0CA1F467883ECDD2FBBE2D6D0.jpg[/image]

jwolf -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 4:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister This is the state of the P47 squadrons. Their value can certainly not be understated. To any JFB thinking about invading the WC in early 42: Remember that these arrive...[sm=00000028.gif] Kills: 107 Losses: 6 I still have 69 of these guys available. I can probably keep 1-2 squadrons operational until production start in July. Pretty impressive. Are these early squadrons some sort of prototype? Maybe an alpha or beta test as we might say now?

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 4:44:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf Pretty impressive. Are these early squadrons some sort of prototype? Maybe an alpha or beta test as we might say now? I think they normally arrive in July but I´m not sure. It was pretty much the only positive thing arriving in the air via the emergency reinforcements. All the other squadrons that arrived was more or less empty. Not these guys thankfully! [:)]

AcePylut -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 4:59:14 PM)
I’m really curious as to your thoughts…. Tactically – this is shaping up to be a defeat for Japan. Strategically, however, with the loss of all those aircraft factories in LA, how do you see that affecting the US Aircraft pools long term? Will your airforce be ground to nothing in 43,44,45 as you don’t get all those planes that are most desperately needed? It’s well documented that Japan can lose it’s high quality pilots and planes, and have a “new batch” of high quality pilots and planes up and running in a few months.

Macclan5 -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:04:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf Pretty impressive. Are these early squadrons some sort of prototype? Maybe an alpha or beta test as we might say now? I think they normally arrive in July but I´m not sure. It was pretty much the only positive thing arriving in the air via the emergency reinforcements. All the other squadrons that arrived was more or less empty. Not these guys thankfully! [:)] We probably need a database guru to be definitive. I don't think the P47 would show up in 1942 at all and not in those numbers even by July 1943 ~ albeit I am a newbie. They probably are some sort of emergency reserve upgrade that were not transferred to ETO / North Africa given you are playing in January 1943. Simply the P47 is / was a hugely competitive advantage. Not only in game but in real life IIRC. Mustangs / Corsairs / and to a lesser degree Hellcats have a lot of sex appeal in this game and in books / miniatures / films. But I recall reading in a variety of books the Thunderbolt actually had the "least amount of losses per sortie" of all fighter types in all theaters of WW2. The last models circa 1945 were literally so big so heavy and so steady they were 2X and 3X the size weight of most other fighter types. Damage resistant to say the least. I think Wikipedia also suggests this. Some folk are uncertain of wiki but I have no proof either way to what I recall reading etc.

HansBolter -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:04:53 PM)
I'm confused. What aircraft factories did he lose in LA? How did he lose them? I don't recall seeing LA fall to the Japanese. If you're referring to damage from strategic bombing rather than destruction caused by losing control of the hex, can't the damage be repaired? I thought the only way to "lose" a factory was by losing the hex, otherwise it's only damage that can be repaired and unlike the Japanese, the Americans have all the supply they need for the repair work. I am wrong in my understanding? Can strategic bombing permanently destroy factories?

Canoerebel -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:14:42 PM)
I'll step in before the confusion grows amuck. No aircraft factories have been damaged or lost, at L.A. or anywhere else. Acepylut misread something. So this situation is just totaly victory - strategic, operational, tactical - for Jocke. The question is whether Jeff pulls himself together enough to soldier on. He has a good record of standing against despair, but this situation will really test his resolve. Encouraging words from the Peanut Gallery will be most appreciated, I think. As for the P-47s, they do arrive in the summer of '43. Here we're already at January '43, so they're not ridiculously early. But Jocke is pointing out that an IJ invasion in early '42 would encounter Thunderbolts more than a year early.

witpqs -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:23:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I'll step in before the confusion grows amuck. No aircraft factories have been damaged or lost, at L.A. or anywhere else. Acepylut misread something. So this situation is just totaly victory - strategic, operational, tactical - for Jocke. The question is whether Jeff pulls himself together enough to soldier on. He has a good record of standing against despair, but this situation will really test his resolve. Encouraging words from the Peanut Gallery will be most appreciated, I think. As for the P-47s, they do arrive in the summer of '43. Here we're already at January '43, so they're not ridiculously early. But Jocke is pointing out that an IJ invasion in early '42 would encounter Thunderbolts more than a year early. And as good as the P-47 is versus against contemporary and accelerated Japanese fighters, put it up against much earlier fighters... [X(]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:32:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AcePylut I’m really curious as to your thoughts…. Tactically – this is shaping up to be a defeat for Japan. Strategically, however, with the loss of all those aircraft factories in LA, how do you see that affecting the US Aircraft pools long term? Will your airforce be ground to nothing in 43,44,45 as you don’t get all those planes that are most desperately needed? It’s well documented that Japan can lose it’s high quality pilots and planes, and have a “new batch” of high quality pilots and planes up and running in a few months. I havn´t lost any aircraft factories either at LA or SD...[:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:35:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter I'm confused. What aircraft factories did he lose in LA? How did he lose them? I don't recall seeing LA fall to the Japanese. If you're referring to damage from strategic bombing rather than destruction caused by losing control of the hex, can't the damage be repaired? I thought the only way to "lose" a factory was by losing the hex, otherwise it's only damage that can be repaired and unlike the Japanese, the Americans have all the supply they need for the repair work. I am wrong in my understanding? Can strategic bombing permanently destroy factories? I havn´t lost anything so your memory is correct. [:)] Strategic bombing CAN permanently destroy a factory. This can be done by creating what is called a "firestorm". But to my knowledge it has never been done. I tried doing it in a self made scenario using thousands on B29s but it never happened. Its in the manual somewhere but I think it mechanics of it has been broken somewhere along the line.

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:37:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I'll step in before the confusion grows amuck. No aircraft factories have been damaged or lost, at L.A. or anywhere else. Acepylut misread something. So this situation is just totaly victory - strategic, operational, tactical - for Jocke. The question is whether Jeff pulls himself together enough to soldier on. He has a good record of standing against despair, but this situation will really test his resolve. Encouraging words from the Peanut Gallery will be most appreciated, I think. As for the P-47s, they do arrive in the summer of '43. Here we're already at January '43, so they're not ridiculously early. But Jocke is pointing out that an IJ invasion in early '42 would encounter Thunderbolts more than a year early. Exactly! [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:40:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs And as good as the P-47 is versus against contemporary and accelerated Japanese fighters, put it up against much earlier fighters... [X(] Indeed. An early invasion of the WC would see mostly A6M2s, Oscars and possibly at best a few Tojos...but given an early invasion numbers would be low and losses would be tremendous.

BBfanboy -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 5:54:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter I'm confused. What aircraft factories did he lose in LA? How did he lose them? I don't recall seeing LA fall to the Japanese. If you're referring to damage from strategic bombing rather than destruction caused by losing control of the hex, can't the damage be repaired? I thought the only way to "lose" a factory was by losing the hex, otherwise it's only damage that can be repaired and unlike the Japanese, the Americans have all the supply they need for the repair work. I am wrong in my understanding? Can strategic bombing permanently destroy factories? Factories can be permanently destroyed by fires, but it takes one tremendous fire level that burns for days and then the destruction of industry is random, so the aircraft factories might not be destroyed at all. And we all know how impossible it is for IJA two engined bombers to drop enough bombs to get a firestorm going!

ny59giants -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 6:19:53 PM)
What are the number of and quality of your DBs and TBs on the WC?? If Jeff has to try a Dunkirk like Greyjoy did, can you hurt him?

jwolf -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 6:48:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister I think they [P47] normally arrive in July but I´m not sure. It was pretty much the only positive thing arriving in the air via the emergency reinforcements. All the other squadrons that arrived were more or less empty. Not these guys thankfully! [:)] Is this a random thing? That is, which of the emergency squadrons are actually filled out as opposed to mere shells? I am wondering especially regarding Dan's comment a bit later that an early 1942 IJ invasion of the US could theoretically trigger activation of P47s more than a year early. Maybe the P47 units would just be empty shells? Definitely it would be unbalancing to have P47s that early, although admittedly in any game where the Japanese are seriously invading the US then "balance" was a casualty long beforehand.

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 6:55:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants What are the number of and quality of your DBs and TBs on the WC?? If Jeff has to try a Dunkirk like Greyjoy did, can you hurt him? I have a good strike package ready. Some 120 DBs and 60 TBs. Without CAP they can probably cause some mischief. [:)]

JocMeister -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 7:03:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwolf Is this a random thing? That is, which of the emergency squadrons are actually filled out as opposed to mere shells? I am wondering especially regarding Dan's comment a bit later that an early 1942 IJ invasion of the US could theoretically trigger activation of P47s more than a year early. Maybe the P47 units would just be empty shells? Definitely it would be unbalancing to have P47s that early, although admittedly in any game where the Japanese are seriously invading the US then "balance" was a casualty long beforehand. Nope, I think its the way the squadrons arrive on map. Some with planes and some without. Whoever designed the emergency reinforcements never bothered to look if they arrived with any planes or not. He just added squadrons assuming they would have a full complement of planes. This is why the air reinforcements (besides the P47s) were useless. They had no planes. I received something like 30 DB and TB squadrons. Mostly USMC. All without planes and 30/30 pilots. So a Japanese invasion of the WC in January 42 would with 100% certainty give the allied player 75 P47s. Keep in mind though that actual production still starts in July 43 regardless of planes arriving. So once you run out of the ones you get they are gone.

Canoerebel -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/11/2016 7:05:25 PM)
And the question of whether a Japanese invasion of the West Coast can be an effective, perhaps even game-winning, strategy still hasn't been determined. I think that it can. There are two possibilities: (1) that an invasion could give the Japanese the necessary VP to achieve auto victory; and (2) that an invasion could knock out enough aircraft factories (and perhaps ships, especially CVE) to allow Japan to fight more effectively during the late game. In various posts through the years, I've seen smart and experienced Forumites proffer these strategies credibly. I don't think the first I mentioned has been discussed in detail in either this AAR or in Jeff's. But the combination of strategic bombing against West Coast targets and the taking and building of big, points-rich bases (especially in Alaska and Canada) is a sobering prospect. If a very good IJ player started the game planning to strike at CVE production at Portland/Tacoma (what a haul of VP!) and/or aircraft production at LA and/or San Diego, I think there is a fair chance he might achieve his objectives. I don't think we've seen this happen yet. And I'm not sure it's possible against a good and experienced Allied player. But if you start out with an elite Japanese player against a relatively inexperienced Allied payer, I'd place all my money on Japan.

BBfanboy -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/12/2016 12:15:24 AM)
If US CVs get sunk during the game a replacement CV is put in the reinforcement queue - but I wonder if the same applies to CVEs? So maybe taking Portland takes all those CVEs off the queue but puts them back on somewhat later. And you don't get points for all the ships. Those that are "Building" give something like half points but those that haven't started building might not give you any points.

bomccarthy -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/12/2016 12:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JocMeister quote: ORIGINAL: Canoerebel I'll step in before the confusion grows amuck. No aircraft factories have been damaged or lost, at L.A. or anywhere else. Acepylut misread something. So this situation is just totaly victory - strategic, operational, tactical - for Jocke. The question is whether Jeff pulls himself together enough to soldier on. He has a good record of standing against despair, but this situation will really test his resolve. Encouraging words from the Peanut Gallery will be most appreciated, I think. As for the P-47s, they do arrive in the summer of '43. Here we're already at January '43, so they're not ridiculously early. But Jocke is pointing out that an IJ invasion in early '42 would encounter Thunderbolts more than a year early. Exactly! [:)] Just checking some offline sources - IRL, approx 530 P-47s (Cs and Bs) were delivered between May and Dec 1942, equipping two fighter groups in the continental US. According to this source (Dean, America's One Hundred Thousand), the P-47D was the first model that could use external tanks in combat situations; production of the D didn't start until Feb 1943. Production of the C started in Oct 1942 and only 170 Bs were produced (most between June and Sept 1942). The first group to go operational with the P-47B was the 56th, in Nov 1942; it was sent to the UK in Jan 1943. Having P-47s arrive before June 1942 would be unrealistic, but so would having masses of Ki-84s arrive before the middle of 1944.

Canoerebel -> RE: Invasion West Coast! (8/12/2016 12:27:41 AM)
Allied CVEs lost in battle don't get replaced (as far as I know; but every time I make a definitive statement, somebody brighter than me comes along and points out I am mistaken). As for the P47Bs arriving in May 1942, they'll undoubtedly face opposition from aircraft that weren't available then...and in this case it would be the IJ player that triggered their appearance into the game. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over their "miraculous" early advent.

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