RE: SCALE (Full Version)

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con20or -> RE: SCALE (6/8/2015 7:57:25 AM)

Try a different scale factor [:)]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3875303



thewood1 -> RE: SCALE (6/8/2015 3:02:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Thanks for that Rich. Appreciate it all.


So may be try something that is completely unheard of...wait and buy the game after its been out for a while. Shocking to think about, but with so many concerns, I would think that is an obvious choice.

It would seem to be a less stressful experience than what you seem to be going through right now.



GBS -> RE: SCALE (6/9/2015 11:06:50 AM)

Ill buy the game Michael T didn't take. Downloading now.[:D]



GBS -> RE: SCALE (6/9/2015 11:10:56 AM)

[:D][:D][:D]



Phoenix100 -> RE: SCALE (6/9/2015 4:48:45 PM)

What concerns me is not the scale of the game as a whole, but relative scale between topo/units/buildings. Any intelligent person would have gathered that from my line of questions. Its a reasonable and simple request that would be of interest for any serious wargamer. I will leave it at that, as your colleague answered the questions adequately. It is a fact there is a bit a fudging going here between the relative scales. Now some people don't mind, many I suspect are oblivious to it and others like myself are concerned with it. So its a matter of whether I can tolerate that or not. I don't know yet. I am waiting to see what happens. Ideally I would prefer all relative scales to be 1:1 for top/units/buildings in a game that relies heavily on a visual 3D experience.

Well - as you might have seen from the fact that I have asked the exact same questions as you about scale - I'm one of those persons out there who has your exact concerns, and, to be honest, as with me putting these questions with other SOW titles, it took a while to get answers. I would prefer things like scale to be clearly flagged up in the descriptions, then we wouldn't have to bother the fans in here with 'negative' questions. I bought all the SOW titles and played them and tried to ignore the scale thing. I think they're great games, beautifully put together, with tremendous care, and if you can go with that, Michael T, you will certainly enjoy Waterloo, I suspect. Myself I would rather play JTS Waterloo (or BPW or Leipzig etc) these days because the scale really is 1:1 even if the game is only 2d (you have to ignore JTS's 3D side, I think....), the maps are very accurate, a 15 min igoyougo turn cycle isn't a complete reality crusher, for me (though igoyougo is really silly when you think about it in realism terms)and it's really easy to get great games against real (human) opponents using PBEM.

I don't understand the design decisions made by the Norbsoft team in terms of scale, but I think you have certainly been given the answers you need now, Michael T. Los doesn't work as in reality is the short of it, or doesn't work in relation to the sprites and buildings you see, compared to the real life battlefields. Yes, you can hide a load of units on a reverse slope, as Wellington did often, but if you hide them over the other side of the Mont St. Jean ridge, for example, in this game then where they are precisely visible from has nothing to do with where they were visible from on the day, in real life. So you couldn't exactly mimic real life tactics, for sure. But in gameplay terms the way they have produced a map all of whose parts are related to each other as in reality (in terms of ratios) might, despite the fact that the objects on that map are all too big, produce a gameplay experience the 'effect' of which is close enough to real life to not make much of a difference (to most people, I suspect). Similarly, Michael T, if you go to Waterloo and look at the battlefield, or do it on google earth, then it will look quite different to the one in the game, in a very fundamental way, in that the effect of having sprites and buildings and trees oversized is that the maps all become undersized, so everything looks smaller, distances much shorter. That combined with the 1:4 scale for numbers of sprites makes this game (I don't have it - I'm going off the titles I do have) an excellent miniature replica, as it were. It doesn't look like it would have looked on the day, but it does 'represent' the battlefield in a way (not as accurately as a simple 1:1 2D map, but people crave 3D, I guess, and so here it is....) As such I really take my hat off to the devs because they have done quite a bit of work with the AI, for example, which is rarely done elsewhere. And I feel in the end that's probably more important than the graphics.

There's nothing wrong with miniatures. There's a miniature FW190 in Texas, for example, one third the scale of an actual FW190, perfectly flyable etc. It would be fun to fly, I'm sure, but no one would claim that it was much like flying the real thing.

All you should do, to finally decide, Michael T, is get one of the other SOW demos and try it. You will be able to compare the battlefield to real life ones and see the points that have been made. You might, in the end, really like it as a game. You'll be disappointed if you expect it to be something near a simulator, I think.

Peter



Real and Simulated Wars -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 12:17:46 AM)

"That's another thing we've learned from your Nation," said Mein Herr, "map-making. But we've carried it much further than you. What do you consider the largest map that would be really useful?"

"About six inches to the mile."

""Only six inches!"exclaimed Mein Herr. "We very soon got to six yards to the mile. Then we tried a hundred yards to the mile. And then came the grandest idea of all! We actually made a map of the country, on the scale of a mile to the mile!"

"Have you used it much?" I enquired.

"It has never been spread out, yet," said Mein Herr: "the farmers objected: they said it would cover the whole country, and shut out the sunlight! So we now use the country itself, as its own map, and I assure you it does nearly as well"

from Lewis Carroll - The Complete Illustrated Works.



e_barkmann -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 12:50:36 AM)

Yes indeed. There are some great reenactment groups out there too, there will be a big meeting next week I believe :-)

cheers



Rosseau -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 1:10:53 AM)

I was greatly surprised to see the new HistWar Nappy. I give the team great credit for patching the first game like crazy. But to spend another $50 for this second game with no loyalty discount? SoW-Napoleon's release spells doom for all but the most ardent Histwar fans, I am afraid. Based on 10-year track record of both devs, Norbsoft gets my money on this one, not even close.



con20or -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 8:03:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chelco

"That's another thing we've learned from your Nation," said Mein Herr, "map-making. But we've carried it much further than you. What do you consider the largest map that would be really useful?"

"About six inches to the mile."

""Only six inches!"exclaimed Mein Herr. "We very soon got to six yards to the mile. Then we tried a hundred yards to the mile. And then came the grandest idea of all! We actually made a map of the country, on the scale of a mile to the mile!"

"Have you used it much?" I enquired.

"It has never been spread out, yet," said Mein Herr: "the farmers objected: they said it would cover the whole country, and shut out the sunlight! So we now use the country itself, as its own map, and I assure you it does nearly as well"

from Lewis Carroll - The Complete Illustrated Works.


Fantastic quote [&o]



con20or -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 8:04:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I was greatly surprised to see the new HistWar Nappy. I give the team great credit for patching the first game like crazy. But to spend another $50 for this second game with no loyalty discount? SoW-Napoleon's release spells doom for all but the most ardent Histwar fans, I am afraid. Based on 10-year track record of both devs, Norbsoft gets my money on this one, not even close.


Thank you very much!



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 11:52:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chelco

"That's another thing we've learned from your Nation," said Mein Herr, "map-making. But we've carried it much further than you. What do you consider the largest map that would be really useful?"

"About six inches to the mile."

""Only six inches!"exclaimed Mein Herr. "We very soon got to six yards to the mile. Then we tried a hundred yards to the mile. And then came the grandest idea of all! We actually made a map of the country, on the scale of a mile to the mile!"

"Have you used it much?" I enquired.

"It has never been spread out, yet," said Mein Herr: "the farmers objected: they said it would cover the whole country, and shut out the sunlight! So we now use the country itself, as its own map, and I assure you it does nearly as well"

from Lewis Carroll - The Complete Illustrated Works.


I feel the same way as Michael T. I have been posting on the norbsoft dev forums and had some people there get frustrated that I was digging so deeply with regard to scale, I think they literally though I was just trying to be a pain to be honest. Like a lot of wargamers (as against tabletop gamers) I had always dreamed of seeing the battlefield the way it was with the scale affecting the tactics and timings of movement and formation and traffic jams etc. I heard somewhere this game was capable of 1:1 and then with further explanation that a mod was needed and then with further explanation even though I was willing to accept smaller battles with realistic numbers - found that the scales were all out of screw with reality for formation spacing because the map was out of scale with the sprites and buildings. Units also have a hard code limit of 200 men. So new formations of 100 men per company to form regiments in 10 units would be needed and this would get messy on the field I assume as you tried to move a regiment in 10 bits or together with the formations provided!

I would have been quite happy just playing quatre bras with correct numbers. Just to see what the specatacle would have involved in reality knowing that everything was as close to reality as computers could make possible.

But then I also found that some mechanics had needed to be short cut in order to preserve the strategic nature of the game and the scale. For instance Regiments could not detach light and grenadier companies to do their duties of form larger units. This is rationalised with the skirmish formation.

Having said all of this though I should bring your attention to one thing. One thing which really makes me like the game. Even with the scale issues each unit still has a statistic showing the REAL numbers of men. So if I want I can click on the unit and read the number trying to imagine what over 1000 men looks like instead of 150 shown in sprite form.
I am however one of those guys that loved combat mission because it showed me everything and allowed me to finally see a regimental combat in real time or WEGO with real numbers - I am not a fan of UGOIGO you see. Too unrealistic. I am worried it will really bug me not seeing my units and how powerful they actually are in a game which all I would value in would be the realism. The fun I would get would be seeing the history come to life and being able to watch and experiment with that. Some say that I am being ridiculous and must accept what we can do today with what we have. But for me it's all about whether I would actually pick the game up and play it. If my belief would be suspended enough.... in other games like total war I can do that by pretending it is at the regimental level, I have a company of grenadiers and 9 or so other 100 or 200 man units. In this I have to figure out whether I can do the same and still believe it.

I have played the gettysburg demo and it is a great little number. I believe in SOW:W being the best we currently have. I looked a histwar a while back and it does not have the ticker\atmoshpere or the friendly interface that SOW games do. Even if it gets better graphics the animations and fighting look absolutely shocking. In addition the amount of time it has taken them to develop so far I don't think it is going to be done anytime soon.

So I am tempted but currently am a bit miffed that it is not immediately on steam and is between $70 and $77 Australian. I often find that I regret it later when a steam version comes out and the developer is powerless to give all existing pre-orders a key. Although il2 BOS finally did this for pre-order customers only recently.

P.S. Is their a way to down scale the sprites and buildings and up the ratio to 1:1 for a engagement like quatre bras?



con20or -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 12:36:02 PM)

You can set the scale-factor for the sprites in the csvs, and the sprite ratio in the options menu but you still have the hardcoded unit-sprite limit. If you are determined you could create an OOB by splitting units over 200 men into multiple units. You can not change the scale factor of the buildings, but if you are interested you could apply to join the map mod team and create a 1:1 map with smaller buildings. That would be one solution but it is alot of work.



Phoenix100 -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 1:50:02 PM)

The handful of sarcastic responses to the queries about scale are odd, I think. No one has said that those that like the game are somehow to be looked down on (each to his own is what has been said), so I don't know why there has to be sniping, defensive responses. These are just simple questions about how the game is put together and then a discussion of why you might or might not like that, if for no other reason than to attempt to inform the way the game develops.

It's not unreasonable to expect that a 3D game should go for realism (otherwise we could just make do with 2D maps, right?) and I have yet to have anyone - the devs or anyone else - tell me why it hasn't gone for realism - why there is this mis-match between the scale of the buildings, sprites trees etc and the scale of the map. This is a completely different point to the one about the numbers of sprites that represent real life numbers. It seems completely unnecessary to me to have enlarged the sprites and map objects, yet it ruins the realism in the game. So why was it done? Obviously, there must have been a reason for it, and if someone were to explain then I might be able to get my head round it. I mean why call the game 'Waterloo' when the map you put together only vaguely resembles the place because everything is oversized? What was the reason?



RCHarmon -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 1:55:30 PM)


[/quote]

or the friendly interface that SOW games do.


[/quote]


Be fore warned the easy SOW interface is gone. For reasons that I do not understand. There is a learning curve with it and at times 2 or 3 clicks are needed where before it was only one. A Grog Mod toolbar comes with the game and it helps out a lot. Game is great and is very playable with the grog toolbar.


It is a good game and well worth the money.



LittlePowell_NSD -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 2:12:01 PM)

quote:

Be fore warned the easy SOW interface is gone. For reasons that I do not understand.


The reasons were actually to make the interface much easier. In the old sytle, having to double click on the ground, then click click click again to position it, not to mention how hard it could be to even see the arrow.. Now it's a simple right click and hold to position the direction arrow, and your unit is on it's way.

Again, just takes some getting used to if you are accustomed to the old system.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 2:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Little Powell

quote:

Be fore warned the easy SOW interface is gone. For reasons that I do not understand.


The reasons were actually to make the interface much easier. In the old sytle, having to double click on the ground, then click click click again to position it, not to mention how hard it could be to even see the arrow.. Now it's a simple right click and hold to position the direction arrow, and your unit is on it's way.

Again, just takes some getting used to if you are accustomed to the old system.


Is it a learning curve for one who is used to RTS?



con20or -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 3:02:34 PM)

No, not really - we demo'd it for people who never played SOW before when it was in development and they all found it easy to use.



Tim1966 -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 3:06:33 PM)

Re the scale. Basically the map is made as accurate as possible. It is to scale and based on lots of research. Sprites are scaled so the unit space taken up is accurate on the map and sprites look reasonable - not too spaced out - whilst having a limit on the max number of sprites per unit. Buildings are scaled so they taken up roughly the correct space on the map and look reasonable against the sprites. It's a judgement call so the game looks grand, is immersive and runs well on reasonable computers. The LOS works as described previously by unit. So you can lay down on reverse slopes as the Allies did. Personally I don't think you will see a game representing Waterloo anywhere near as accurately.
I understand the desire to see a movie like epic and I really believe we have got as close as we can to that.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 3:35:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: con20or

No, not really - we demo'd it for people who never played SOW before when it was in development and they all found it easy to use.


Exactly my point. If it is closer to standard RTS controls then its probably only SOW:G vets who will not like it. For the rest of us who do not play this exclusively it will probably be closer to what we are used to. But I still don't have an answer to the RTS control question. So will look at reviews or the demo.

P.S. Is the manual free to download? That would tell me.



Phoenix100 -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 5:58:58 PM)

Many thanks Tim1966. I appreciate very much you taking time to answer. I think I understand now a little. I understand why the sprites are oversized, anyway - that's a result of the 1:4 scaling of sprite numbers, you mean, I think? Each sprite has to stand in for (at least) 4 sprites, so you don't want them looking spread out with gaps, so you oversize them. Then I guess, you follow through with everything else, the trees, the buildings etc, so it doesn't look like giants. Got it, I think. That's very helpful. Thanks again.

Peter



kipanderson -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 6:01:08 PM)

Hi,

My take is that Waterloo and the series generally are as Grognard as any wargame. Grognard is of course in the eye of the beholder :). As with many here I have tried lots, and as with many here also, have learnt to “assume..” a new wargame will be disappointment.

But this series is very much the real deal in my view. Am very optimistic, indeed certain, that someone will do a mod that allows true 1 : 1 scaling in all ways. But accept it will only be able to run small clashes on the design spec machines for this game.

Too wish the entire battle would run in true 1 : 1. But given that it will not on must machines, think the compromises spot on.

Hope there will be an ever growing number of Napoleonic games in this series. Bet there will be :).

Congratulations..
All the best,
Kip.



Phoenix100 -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 6:13:16 PM)

I will certainly buy it the moment I see that there is a mod doing a true 1:1 scale (in every sense, as you say, Kip). Would love that. I couldn't care less about it being the entire battle. The entire battle - as everyone knows - breaks down nicely into (at the very least) three parts. 1:1 Hougoumont, for example. Would that not be doable? With an accurate number of sprites, with Hougoumont scaled properly on the map, with all the trees and hedges and buildings scaled properly and the sprites done life size instead of large. Definitely, when that mod comes out I will buy the entire game for that mod. Because, I certainly agree that it looks unlikely that (courageous one man show as it is) Histwar will reach a bug-free, playable, AI working as intended level of 1:1 play anytime soon.

I'm hung up on realism, not 3D. So at the moment I think 2D versions can simulate things more realistically. But that mod, Kip, that will swing it for me. No doubt about that.

Peter



Tim1966 -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 7:16:16 PM)

Hi Phoenix - you pretty much got it on the scale. It took me sometime to get my head around it to. It basically making sure the units fill the area they would if they were 1:1 and don't have big gaps in the ranks. Table toppers do a similar thing. It's all about getting it look good and run well.



Michael T -> RE: SCALE (6/10/2015 9:30:02 PM)

quote:

I'm hung up on realism, not 3D. So at the moment I think 2D versions can simulate things more realistically. But that mod, Kip, that will swing it for me. No doubt about that.


I agree with this sentiment. Like Peter, JTS Nappy games are still my preference.

For me, this game or a mod will need to be 1:1:1 for topo/troops/structures, anything else I just won't accept in a 3D world. So I will stick to my 2D versions for now.

Good luck with the game chaps, I will keep an eye on how things develop in the future.



thewood1 -> RE: SCALE (6/11/2015 12:23:07 AM)

I didn't know JTS nap games had 1:1 scaling. They don't even show individual buildings do they?



Michael T -> RE: SCALE (6/11/2015 12:54:07 AM)

JTS Nappy games are traditional 2D hex and counter wargames. It's a totally different experinece, more like a boardgame ported to a PC.

It's just my prefence. For a realtime 3D game I want the scales of each element to be relative at 1:1. I don't admonish others for enjoying SOW as is. But for me, to transend from traditional 2D UGOIGO wargames to 3D realtime games there are a number of *must haves*, realistic map and grahpics being one of them, amongst others. ATM SOW graphics are not realistic enough for my taste. I have no idea how the game handles the other important things like moving units and combat. But if I look at the screen and am not convinced it looks right then I don't go any further.



thewood1 -> RE: SCALE (6/11/2015 12:59:01 AM)

But holy crap...how can you play a turn-based game that has buildings only represented by clumps and whole regiments as one unit and then admonish a game that only does 4:1 on individual soldiers. There is a major disconnect there.



Squid -> RE: SCALE (6/11/2015 1:04:47 AM)

I just thought I would chime in regarding this scale issue. I get it that it would be amazing to play on a true 1:1 scale (I would love to as well). But its been eloquently explained, there are reasons as to why the engine currently does not support this. I've played the JTS games ad nauseum and they are good, but I always feel I am playing a hex based wargame (mainly because I am [;)]). Where SOW Waterloo excels is immersion. Ok I know that as far as mancount goes those units should be bigger, but there is a gestalt effect, wherein the sum of what is going on in the game creates a wider realism than can't be described by simple stats such as sprite ratio. Numerous times in the SOW Civil war games the AI has provided me with a war story I will happily regale to non players due to its realism and entertainment value.

If you are interested in recreating the Napoleonic battles on your PC, then I really do believe you cant do better than this game. It has a tabletop feel of authenticity, Total War style eye candy and a huge amount of depth in the ai and the tactical (Napoleonic) problems it throws at you. Yes it would be more epic to see that in 1:1 but I wouldn't do without the experience as is for one second at 1.6. For those on the fence I would recommend downloading the free demo of Gettysburg (even if ACW isn't your thing). Despite the engine being the poor relation to Waterloo (this is a huge improvement), hopefully it will impart some of the reasons why this franchise is so good that can be hard to get across without simply seeing how it does things.




Aurelian -> RE: SCALE (6/12/2015 3:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Enough about scale already. Does anyone really need a one to one representation of Waterloo? Would not that be a bit unwieldy? Should not some abstraction be acceptable. After all the Civil War SOW's work fine. This is, after all, a wargame. I suspect that neither Napoleon nor Wellington had laptops at the battle, with which they could view any portion of the field immediately. But that will not stop me from enjoying the game.


I agree. If I want 1:1 scale, well, that's why I have all those flight sims/first person shooters.

I look at this as table top miniature wargaming in real time.

Imagine if they ever did SOW: Battle of Nations. 1:1 scale would probably require a quantum computer.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/12/2015 3:10:23 PM)

Most FPS or flight Sims I play are not capable of 1:1 representations of proper units.
Some flight Sims can handle realistic numbers but they are rare. Take bomber formations in the battle of Britain. There is only one sim I know of that does realistic bomber numbers.
As for FPS games I don't know of any that do Napoleonic warfare with 1:1 unit scale for battles. Max 64-100 players is the best I have seen, not thousands.

Can you please advise the FPS you are playing?
You have my attention.

p.s. If I wanted tabletop numbers I would play tabletop. Less stress on the eyes. Instead I want what computers bring. Which could be 1:1 with different design and scenario decisions.



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