RE: SCALE (Full Version)

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Aurelian -> RE: SCALE (6/12/2015 10:51:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destraex

Most FPS or flight Sims I play are not capable of 1:1 representations of proper units.
Some flight Sims can handle realistic numbers but they are rare. Take bomber formations in the battle of Britain. There is only one sim I know of that does realistic bomber numbers.
As for FPS games I don't know of any that do Napoleonic warfare with 1:1 unit scale for battles. Max 64-100 players is the best I have seen, not thousands.

Can you please advise the FPS you are playing?
You have my attention.

p.s. If I wanted tabletop numbers I would play tabletop. Less stress on the eyes. Instead I want what computers bring. Which could be 1:1 with different design and scenario decisions.


You mean like Rowan's Battle of Britain with hundreds of bombers in the air?

What FPS is *not* 1:1 scale?




BigDuke66 -> RE: SCALE (6/14/2015 6:15:51 AM)

As for scale, I wasn't so much worried about the 1:4 but rather about the "adjustments" that were made to let it look acceptable.
If 1 soldier stand for 4 or even more and is said to be 8-10ft tall then I doubt a unit takes up the space on the map that the real unit would have taken up, and it's this distortion of scale that I'm worried about, it simply looks strange in all the videos.
If everything would have simply been 1:4 that would likely not have been the case at least I doubt they would have been moonwalking all the time.


As a lot people mentioned the excellent Napoleonic games of HPS/JTS I recommend to take a look at this club:
http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/Napann1.htm
And especially at the forum:
http://wargame.ch/board/nwc/index.php
A lot of the design crew(lead designers, map & scenario makers, testers, etc.) of the Napoleonic series hang around there.



Pawsy -> RE: SCALE (6/14/2015 7:14:01 AM)

1:1 scale is now my scale of choice makes it seem a lot more realistic and units occupy a better frontage



vincere -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 7:33:15 AM)

I tried 1 scale last night. Looked so much more epic. So I'm willing to trade graphics level for this.

Is there any major downside??? Frontages still work ok? I'm guessing towns will be more of a pain.




jomni -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 9:10:40 AM)

I have tried default and 1:3. Will try 1:1 next. My only concern is the lines crisscrossing.



vincere -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 9:23:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I have tried default and 1:3. Will try 1:1 next. My only concern is the lines crisscrossing.


I've been trying to use Divisions for advance to contact.

Then just before contact brigades as the basic manoeuvre size. Still had crossing lines for 0 (1:6) setting that needs micro managing sometimes.

At the moment I'm going to see how it gets on setting 1.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 1:03:17 PM)

@Aurelian
Almost all fps combat does not represent scale larger than a tincy tiny skirmish is what I meant. They do not represent BATTLES they are set in 1:1. Be resonable. fps shooters are not a replacement for battle simulators. Would you really never play an rts happy that fps is doing 1:1 for you? You are comparing apples and oranges.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 1:03:47 PM)

Double post.



Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 1:03:59 PM)

Triple post



JamesLxx -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 3:29:38 PM)

I've had an idea on how to reproduce a 1 to 1 scale without breaking the sprite limit. I don't know if its been tried before or if its practical but here goes:

- A sprite is a single animated entity...at the moment it depicts a single figure 12ft high in relation to the land.

- But what if a single sprite depicted a group of 4 men at correct scale to the land?

- If the sprite scale was then set to 4 to 1 then each sprite illustrating 4 men would visually reproduce every man of a unit.

- At 200 sprites per unit max you would see up to 800 men per unit which covers most regiments.

- The buildings could then be scaled down to correct dimensions as they don't need to match the 12ft size single sprites.

- A correct frontage could also be found with the 4 man sprite.

I wonder if sprites be modded in this way?



BigDuke66 -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 4:58:51 PM)

Just to clarify, the distortion of the scale is simply bad because an 8 gun battery is shown as 8 guns but an 800 men battalion is at best shown as 200 because 200 sprites is the hardcoded limit for it.
So everyone having hope to try something lower than 1:4(what could already be too high if there is a battalion with more than 800 men) like 1:1 can forget it because the hardcoded limit will make an 800 men battalion look like 200 and a 400 men battalion will also look like 200 men, in that case you would have totally no clue how large a unit really is because of the visible distortion of scale.
I just wonder what would happen if the hardcoded limit of 200 would be removed.


@Destraex
Correct your post and remove the double postings please, no one talked about fps? Who mentioned fps??? Your totally of the mark.



RebBugler -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 5:09:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL

I've had an idea on how to reproduce a 1 to 1 scale without breaking the sprite limit. I don't know if its been tried before or if its practical but here goes:

- A sprite is a single animated entity...at the moment it depicts a single figure 12ft high in relation to the land.

- But what if a single sprite depicted a group of 4 men at correct scale to the land?

- If the sprite scale was then set to 4 to 1 then each sprite illustrating 4 men would visually reproduce every man of a unit.

- At 200 sprites per unit max you would see up to 800 men per unit which covers most regiments.

- The buildings could then be scaled down to correct dimensions as they don't need to match the 12ft size single sprites.

- A correct frontage could also be found with the 4 man sprite.

I wonder if sprites be modded in this way?


The OOB is redesigned down to the company level to depict SR1 (1:1 Sprite Ratio) gameplay. Company troop numbers historically are almost always less than 200 men, so this fits in fine with the game's max 200 sprites per unit. Vegetation and objects remain and appear the same as any scale, so no visual issues, immersion stays intact.

There are only issues with this design in regard to historical maps, because they are designed for SR4 - SR6 scale so the historical features are compressed in distance between to reflect smaller unit sizes (unit frontage). Non-historical maps are no issue because there are no historical reference points.

Hopefully I'll have an SR1 design available soon for reference. I have it almost complete, just waiting on some new files built especially for modding (won't affect other files) to be made available before it can be released.



joemann -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 6:40:22 PM)

I also looked at the time scale. I live near the battlefield and I recently walked from the crossroads to la Papelotte farm.By the way a big compliment to the developers for the terrain it really resembles the battlefield.At a brisk pace following the road it takes 15 minutes to walk from the crossroads to La Papelotte (I timed it). In game I marched a Dutch Militia battalion in column formation along the road from the crossroad to la Papelotte. It took 11 minutes to get there.Given that a body of men in formation moves less fast than a single person, either the battlefield is smaller than in reality or the units move faster than they would have (or a combination of both). Personally, I think the units probably move to fast.Could one of the developers comment on this?
If this were true I would not mind a slowing down of the pace to get closer to reality(but I can imagine that a lot of players might not like this).

This is in no way intended to be a criticism of the game. I find it amazing and if I didn't like it I would not spend time doing these silly calculations. Because I find it so good I would just like to help to improve it.




Tim1966 -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 7:38:53 PM)

I've walked the battlefield a few times myself - its not very big for a field where so many fought and died. The marching speed is based on the time we calculated a formed column of men would take over the ground - its quicker on roads. It can be modded in the csv files I believe but we thought we had it down reasonably accurately. I guess we assumed they would be hurrying in a battle situation.



kipanderson -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 8:24:49 PM)

RebBugler,

Great post, very clearly explains all..

Great game, very happy with it as shipped.. but you will understand a curiosity to have a go at true 1 : 1 in a few smaller clashes..

Thanks,
All the best,
Kip.





Destraex -> RE: SCALE (6/15/2015 9:36:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66



@Destraex
Correct your post and remove the double postings please, no one talked about fps? Who mentioned fps??? Your totally of the mark.


fps is mentioned in more than one post in this thread.
I meant to quote the post above yours. The triple post must be due to my win8 mobile. Don't know how that happened.



Phoenix100 -> RE: SCALE (6/16/2015 2:18:42 PM)

quote:

either the battlefield is smaller than in reality or the units move faster than they would have (or a combination of both). Personally, I think the units probably move to fast. Could one of the developers comment on this?


They already have Joemann, if you read through the full thread. They've explained very well what's going on and the reasons why. The battlefield is smaller or the objects on it (including your sprites) are bigger (doesn't mater which way you put it, one is only relative to the other), for all the reasons they've given (to make it look realistically proportioned, basically, relative to sprites that are not 1:1 scaled in numbers).

I also live a few minutes from Waterloo, and when I go there and compare it to the in-game maps, to me it looks around half the size, though I'm sure it's not quite that much of a reduction. This is an effect of the decisions on scaling that the devs have, as I said, explained very well now, I think, in this thread.

I REALLY look forward to the 1:1 scale mod.



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