RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (Full Version)

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AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/5/2015 7:55:41 PM)

Thank you, warshipbuilder, a really interesting thread!
I need more time to read and to understand it all.

Yesterday I investigated the "OilOperations-Function" in EDBTR.
It is responsible for transferring FUEL and OIL to and from locations.
Looks like this function works pretty well.
I append a debug-message-routine so I could verify what's goin' on there.

For an example I focused my eyes on the "De Kooi Airfield".
Said as a rule of thumb, only locations with less than 50 damage can send FUEL or OIL to other locations.
And the further the distance the less OIL (or FUEL) can be supplied.
So, for airfields it looks like it is all ok!
Tuesday I will have a look at OILS, OILR and FUEL locations.

See ya, folks! [;)]



[image]local://upfiles/52038/F5CC27F6C9B34F588A671C3FDB3FF181.jpg[/image]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/5/2015 8:25:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warshipbuilder
Sorry if this seems unfair to pile all this on your shoulders, but right now you are the one hope all of us have in making the game work as it should, so I give you a BIG THANKYOU for your efforts.


Thank you and don't worry, I would be more than happy if I could iron out some of the bugs.



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/5/2015 10:09:40 PM)

Hmm... here is another odd issue.
Attacker raids starts with full skill, defender (interceptor raids) starts with 0 skill at all.
Raid-skills are a combination of group morale, pilot experience and (minus) fatigue and so on.
So, the attacker raid has an advantage in dogfight against the defender raid with no skills.
But I don't know if I'd break the game balance if I change that.


[image]local://upfiles/52038/3AAE894EF3A842D79FFF8EE7720E72FB.jpg[/image]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/5/2015 10:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: planetbrain

Just to let you know that there is someone else out there keeping a keen eye on your progress.
I bought GGEDTBTR on special a while ago now but have not much touched it yet. I certainly will if you can fix things up a bit.


Hi planetbrain,
I recommend to play this game at his current state.
It's not so bad as it looks like or you've heard that it is!
Sure, it has some flaws, but none of them are game breakin'.
Give it a try, it's a unique wonderful game!

Cheers,
AlterEgo!



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/5/2015 10:27:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Please continue your efforts.
Any improvements are welcome.
thanks


Thanks DanSez!
I surely will continue my work; it's one of my favorite games at all!



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/6/2015 8:20:22 AM)

Hi!
Thank you for your effort!

I'm playing the 44 campaign and here it is some issues we've experienced, and some ideas to improve the game:

Weird things, not sure if they are bugs or wad:
- for some reason the allied was not able to target the oil industry in Romania. The bombing raid failed to bomb a specific target everytime (Urinea Orion if IRC). They had recent recon, and attacked during daylight and good weather. It was targeted several times, so it's a very bad luck stuff, or some kind of bug.
- something similar hapened in Stuttgart, IRC, a 8 size engines industry is targeted and the bombs fall over a "building" rockets industry still not visible on the game map.It was targeted several times, so it's a very bad luck stuff, or some kind of bug.
- returning axis interceptors attacked landing at their base never defend themselves, even if they are suposed to have fuel and ammo.

Bugs:
- from time to time, after bombing, bomber raids return disorganized to the enemy territory. I agreed with my opponent not to attack these returning raids, but they suffer AA atacks.

Other:
- the turn replay always crashes. The allied miss important info, and never knows what hapend during nightime.
- the nightime single engine planes gruppen never change into daytime, even if they are suposed to do so.

Things I would like to improve:
- More info about production. I never know how many planes I'm producing every day. It would be great to have some statistics about it...
- It would be great to be able to promote a pilot into the commanding positions in their gruppen/squadrons ( when a leader is wounded/mia/kia, it's replaced, and usually it's replaced by a green pilot with very bad skills).
- It would be great to be able to have any control over the pilot's pool, and to expend some "admin" points to send pilots from a gruppen/squadrons to another.
- it would be great to keep track over the wounded pilots.

I hope it helps!



cohimbra -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/6/2015 8:38:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: npsergio
- the nightime single pilot gruppen never change into daytime, even if they are suposed to do so.

This happens because their scheduled to upgrade to Fw190A-8/R8 and Bf109G-14/R6, and this models never show in the pool (they're Fw190A-8/R7 and Bf109G-14 with extra cannon). I think changing the upgrade path to Fw190A-8/R7 and Bf109G-14 can fix this issue.

And for the rest, I like your ideas, especially the commander change ones. When you have a commander with very low inspiration you never recover morale. Only thing you can try is to send planes to dogfight and prey for shoot down and kill them. But it's not simple thing because they tend to break off attack quickly if morale is too low.



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/6/2015 9:01:01 AM)

Thanks cohimbra, I supose that we all have similar ideas regarding this game imrpovement.

In addition to the bad leaders issue:
Unfortunately I have half my Luftwaffe resting in the rear, visiting brothels, without any increase in their combat morale... And some of them are there for months!



simcityrefund -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/6/2015 11:36:01 AM)

thank you for working on this i had an old copy given to me would like to see this working



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/7/2015 6:09:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL by npsergio
- for some reason the allied was not able to target the oil industry in Romania. The bombing raid failed to bomb a specific target everytime (Urinea Orion if IRC). They had recent recon, and attacked during daylight and good weather. It was targeted several times, so it's a very bad luck stuff, or some kind of bug.


Thanks a lot, npsergio, your info are very appreciated!
Regarding "Unirea Orion", this location is not in the game or better said, it has a delay of 999 days.
I'm not the expert to tell you why this location has a delay...nor can I tell you, why this location
was shown on the map. I will investigate this issue in the future.

quote:

Bugs:
- from time to time, after bombing, bomber raids return disorganized to the enemy territory. I agreed with my opponent not to attack these returning raids, but they suffer AA atacks.


yeah, this is an old bug, mostly happens in PBEM games.
If you have a savegame, where this bug occurs, please send it to me!

quote:

Original Cohimbra
And for the rest, I like your ideas, especially the commander change ones.


I totally agree with what Cohimbra said!

[image]local://upfiles/52038/A90AAFC09E7C4D5C963BBB60C53DD128.jpg[/image]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/7/2015 6:29:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL npsergio
Other:
- the turn replay always crashes. The allied miss important info, and never knows what hapend during nightime.


There are some limits in the replay routine...
Messages are limited to 2400 (I changed that limit to 6000 in my current build)
The time frame is limited to 1440 (minutes per day), but some late returning raids exceeded this limit too.
And the most reason for a crash in the replay routine is the exceeded limit of 40000 plane positions per day.
In a testgame (Oil Offensive II) I reached this limit already at 11:13 am. Pfff.... and the replay routine crashed
at that time.

But be sure that I'll fix this crashes as soon as possible!



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/7/2015 7:02:52 PM)

Thanks a lot to you...
As soon as I play a game turn where I detect the returning bug I'll post here a message to let you know it. Anyway right now we are in a stand by with the game because of this hot summer here in Spain.... But I'll tell my opponent your intentions and I'm sure that he will do his best to finish his raids planning. This bug is very annoying for him [;)]



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/7/2015 7:13:19 PM)

About the "Urinea Orion" & "Stuttgart" stuff, I think that the delayed industries act like a magnet for the bombs. I'm not sure if it's a clear explanation...
I have seen several times that the bombs fail to fall over their targets to fall over a delayed industry that is close to the real target. I thought that probably it was WAD, but IMO it happens too frequently.



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/7/2015 8:22:51 PM)

alterego
PM sent



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/8/2015 8:46:50 PM)

Regarding the low leader inspiration issue,
here are some stats pulled out directly from the game
(idk if they are already mentioned in the manual or not)

National pilot experience values:
-------------------------------
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_German] = 40;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Italian] = 20;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Rumanian] = 20;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Hungarian] = 20;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_CoAxis] = 20;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_British] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Canadian] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Polish] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Czech] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_French] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_American] = 50;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Australian] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_NewZealand] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Dutch] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Norway] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_SouthAfrican] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Brazilian] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_USSR] = 45;
offset_NationalPilotExp[nat_Allied_Italien] = 45;

pilots replacement rate is determined as follows:
-------------------------------------------------
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_German] = 15;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Italian] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Rumanian] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Hungarian] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_CoAxis] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_British] = 10;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Canadian] = 4;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Polish] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Czech] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_French] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_American] = 25;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Australian] = 4;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_NewZealand] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Dutch] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Norway] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_SouthAfrican] = 2;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Brazilian] = 1;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_USSR] = 1;
offset_NationalPilotReplacementRate[nat_Allied_Italien] = 2;

NB.:
The experience value of axis pilots will be halfed if
following conditions are true:
1.) the year is 1943 or later
2.) the Critical Industry Output of FUEL is lower than 1000
3.) the game is in turn 100 or later

So, if a group needs a new leader, because the old one was lost somehow,
the game creates first a new pilot with the above mentioned national experience value.
edit: (or get an existing pilot with the best skills from the group)
Also +5 experience will be added if the Pilot Replacement Pool contains more pilots than the current replacement rate is.

Then the "buildPilotLeader" function does following ...
Leadership:
1.) the new leadership value is the sum of (pilot experience / 2) + (group experience / 2)
2.) if pilot experience is greater than 80 AND leadership value is lower than 65 then leadership gets an additional random value from 1 to 9
3.) if leadership is lower than 40 though, leadership gets a new value of 35 plus a random value from 1 to 11
Inspiration:
1.) the new inspiration value is the sum of (pilot experience / 2) + (group morale / 2)
2.) if pilot experience is greater than 80 AND inspiration value is < 50 then inspiration gets an additional random value from 1 to 20
3.) if inspiration is lower than 40 though, inspiration gets a new value of 35 plus a random value from 1 to 11


I've wrote this, because someone might be interested
and perhaps here is some discussion needed.

Pff.. I hope my scribblings is understandable;
if not, I need a better translator [sm=sign0003.gif]

Cheers!



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/8/2015 9:37:24 PM)

Thank for the info!
Ok, as I understand, if the leader is lost (killed or wounded), a replacement comes.
But how is chosen the new leader? Is randomly selected from the squadron pilots pool? Is the higher rank pilot? Is the most experienced leader?

If I have well understod, firstly a leader is chosen, and then, the game asign him a leadership value.

This leadership depends mainly from the new leader experience (and the squadron experience). The more experienced the leader is, the higher probability that it is asigned a good leadership skill. It makes sense to me...

The problem is: how choose the new leader the program?

And sometimes weird things happen: i,e, a good leader is wounded. It's replaced by a very bad leader. The old leader retrurns to his squadron, but he is no more the squadron leader, he is a simple pilot, even if he has a higher rank than the promoted leader.

That's why it could be interesting to be able to change leaders. With some limits, of course.




AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/9/2015 7:00:42 AM)

quote:

That's why it could be interesting to be able to change leaders. With some limits, of course.


Yep, I will add this feature in the future.



simcityrefund -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/9/2015 10:36:33 AM)

I would apply for alpha/beta test if you want I jsut want the game fixed



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/9/2015 10:38:44 AM)

I don't know if it's doable, but in regard of this info it could be great to have access to this info:

Some sort of a "Pilots info page":
- Pool of green piots: to know if you have a reserve or if you have a demand of replacements. That could affect the agresiveness that you will put over the next days missions, in order to put a max effort, or to recover your units.
- list of squadrons with replacements needs (maybe a good reason to retire a squadron to a quiet area is to rest and wait until it restores the unit's pilots pool).
- list of wounded pilots, and time to return to their units.

All this info could be very useful...

Regards



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/9/2015 5:41:52 PM)

the honour roll now shows the delay for WIA pilots.

[image]local://upfiles/52038/B981A3EE9FBF4AAAAAB0B8D9EB2C911C.jpg[/image]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/9/2015 5:48:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifailmore

I would apply for alpha/beta test if you want I jsut want the game fixed


I will release a test version as soon as I finish the editor.
There is still some work to do for me.



npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 6:19:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlterEgo

Hmm... here is another odd issue.
Attacker raids starts with full skill, defender (interceptor raids) starts with 0 skill at all.
Raid-skills are a combination of group morale, pilot experience and (minus) fatigue and so on.
So, the attacker raid has an advantage in dogfight against the defender raid with no skills.
But I don't know if I'd break the game balance if I c


Ummm...
Probably that's why I see the Luftwaffe interceptors falling like flies :(



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 6:30:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL by npsergio

- returning axis interceptors attacked landing at their base never defend themselves, even if they are suposed to have fuel and ammo.


I've changed this behavior.
Now landing aircraft have a chance to fight back!




npsergio -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 6:46:56 PM)

You're my hero! [&o]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 7:11:05 PM)


Thanks, Sergio!
But without your (and from other players) hints and suggestions I'd never done that... [;)]



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 7:47:25 PM)

currently I examine what happens when a target is bombarded.
Here is a screenshot, where you can see that a bombing run on a OILS target
destroys some of its oil.
Some people saying that bombarding the oil industry has a bug or is not working correctly.
Can someone show me, where this was discussed here at the forum, please?



[image]local://upfiles/52038/68B8706B6F58460AAB679D52291F71F3.jpg[/image]



cohimbra -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/10/2015 8:57:47 PM)

Oh well, we're here to talk about BtR, sooo...another thing that I just discovered.
Seeing around my Luftwaffe groups and some are under strenght about pilots, and it's ok, they took severe losses, this is not the issue.
But take a look at this:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/4lme5iN.jpg[/img]

To me the pilots replacement routine have something wrong. Don't know if other guys have noticed the same thing in their games (a lot of groups with 36 pilots, that's ok; a lot of groups with 30, 32, 34 pilots, that's ok if they took heavy losses; and some groups with 80, 60, 44 pilots...). Maybe you can investigate this? [8|]


Ps. I'm playing full campaign pbem as Axis (05/03/44, turn 260/700). I can provide my save file if it's needed.



warshipbuilder -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/11/2015 12:34:33 AM)

Here is the oil thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651071

Something else for you to look at. There seems to be a limit as to how many different aircraft types the game can handle and you are limited as to the loadouts the planes can have. It's either A or B, in some cases there is no alternative. IIRC from the original discussion this may be hard coded in the exe file and not fixable.



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/11/2015 7:42:34 PM)

Thanks, Cohimbra!

Yeah, it looks like there's something wrong.
I'll investigate this issue!



AlterEgo -> RE: [W.I.P] New Life for EDBTR :) (7/11/2015 7:46:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warshipbuilder

Here is the oil thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651071


Ah, thanks a lot, wsb!
quote:


Something else for you to look at. There seems to be a limit as to how many different aircraft types the game can handle and you are limited as to the loadouts the planes can have. It's either A or B, in some cases there is no alternative. IIRC from the original discussion this may be hard coded in the exe file and not fixable.


hard coded is not the problem!
Because of my dll-injection I can rewrite all hard coded stuff...[8D]



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