RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (Full Version)

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MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/27/2019 11:04:03 PM)

Hmm

Steel Tigers is a new set of miniatures rules intended to be played on a hex grid.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, March 27th, 2013

Personally I think the person who choose the name in both cases needs to let go of the obsession with big german cats.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/28/2019 2:18:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

Personally I think the person who choose the name in both cases needs to let go of the obsession with big german cats.

Heretic



Hexagon -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/29/2019 1:32:59 PM)

Nothing like "Fluffy Kittens" as title for bloody tactical wargame [8|]

In general i think we can change "Steel" for "Fog" to represent better the game status [:D]

Is sad but the Lego "Steel Panthers" from Hexdraw looks very promising and i can survive to the cartoon look much better than the ghost Tigers [:'(]



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/29/2019 9:31:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
In general i think we can change "Steel" for "Fog" to represent better the game status [:D]

My vote is for "Phantom Tigers", has a nice ring to it.



Rebel Yell -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 3:38:27 AM)

How about Tasmanian Tigers. They're extinct.



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 12:40:49 PM)

Not sure if 2by3 is looking, not sure if they are aware, but their game is being mocked and derided. And it's happening on THIS forum, not some unrelevant unimportant location.

Frankly, I'm losing respect for the developers. If this can't get a response, then I'm unsure their game is worth our attention.



Erik Rutins -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 1:58:53 PM)

I don't see mocking and deriding, I just see some folks having fun in the way they always do with a release they want but have no significant info on yet. Inevitably, phantoms, ghosts and vapor start to be discussed.

Whether a project is ready to be discussed publicly unfortunately has nothing to do with what's going on in the forum. I can tell you 2by3 are quite busy and so are we. When it comes to Steel Tigers, it's a big project and has already had a great deal of time put into it with much more to come. When it's ready to be discussed, we'll be happy to share information. Until then, all the silence means is that it's still in development.

Regards,

- Erik



KEYSTONE0795 -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 2:08:04 PM)

I'm hoping this product when unveiled will blow my socks off. Until then, I am very happy with the (sorry for mixing up game scales) Campaign Series, Camo Workshop Steel Panthers, Combat Mission, Steel Beasts Pro Pe 4.1, Command Ops 2, and Graviteam Mius Front/Tunisia. On the board game side: Panzer/MBT and Conflict of Heroes.

I'm very busy!!!!!!!!!!!!![:)] Did I mention I am now retired!

Oh - I forgot Armored Brigade and Command Naval and Air!!!!!!!!!!



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 2:11:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't see mocking and deriding, I just see some folks having fun in the way they always do with a release they want but have no significant info on yet. Inevitably, phantoms, ghosts and vapor start to be discussed.

Whether a project is ready to be discussed publicly unfortunately has nothing to do with what's going on in the forum. I can tell you 2by3 are quite busy and so are we. When it comes to Steel Tigers, it's a big project and has already had a great deal of time put into it with much more to come. When it's ready to be discussed, we'll be happy to share information. Until then, all the silence means is that it's still in development.

Regards,

- Erik



That all sounds reasonable and plausible Erik.
But reality is rarely reasonable and that's not plausible, it the truth.
You might not see it as some guys just having fun. Maybe it isn't though.

I'm already no longer interested in their game.
I couldn't care less if they are close, or if it's 2 years away.
Chances are it wears a price tag close to the usual.
I can't see myself spending 60-80 bucks on a product that lost my loyalty, when I can just continue to play Steel Panthers for one thing.
I think the window for Steel Tigers is not only closed, but, it's looking like it has been bricked up too.
That game should have appeared between 2010 and 2015.

I have no plans to buy War in the East2, I'm not really playing War in the East1
Maybe they make enough on their titles to make it worth it. Not my business. Also not my problem though.

I'm not interested in graphics, I just want a good performing game.
I personally consider Battle Academy to be a superior game to anything that takes hours to perform a turn.
I'm unsure what they are planning to do to make Steel Tigers a replacement for why we play Steel Panthers.
But I'm guessing I'll probably be too busy playing another squad level tactical title at the time.

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.



Kuokkanen -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 2:47:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.



Zovs -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 3:32:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.


Ah, Jagged Alliance and UFO:Whatever are not War Games. They sound like Sci-Fi or Fantasy Games and hence they are not War Games.



tevans -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 3:32:46 PM)

Here's the thing that bothers me. Why even announce the game if it's still years from being released? Why not just work on the game and announce it when it's ready to go? I think it's pointless to announce a game that's not ready for release. Maybe they do it to try to generate interest but in the long run it frustrates people and they end up losing interest. I'm like Mrs. Wargamer where Steel Tigers is concerned. Had it been ready to go when it was announced it would have been a day one purchase for me. But I've lost interest and won't take another look at it now because the game was announced months and years before it was ready for release. Same with War in the East 2 also. I do play War in the East 1 but I just can't see myself buying another version of the same game when the first version works just fine. Especially with the hefty pricetag that everybody knows will be put on the second version.



Hexagon -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 3:32:56 PM)

Well, i was very excited when "Steel Tigers" was announced, "Steel Panthers" was my first PC tactical wargame and maybe was the game i played more and still today even when i played other great tactical wargames i find SP the best because combine a solid simulation + made all you want and how you want model (like "Age of Rifles").

Problem is years pass and i see nothing... i dont know how is going to be the title, if is going to offer new features... only thing i have 100% sure is we are not going to have same content in the title because i see a "FOG" model based in a base game + DLCs and if is going to be like other titles that release years in a front as DLC... dont understand me bad, i can deal with this model but means more time to have the nation-front you want... if game is good enough to see it.

In this moment i see ST more like a joke because is the only positive thing i can find in this situation and even worst, i find a title covering the same market target showing images AND VIDEOS!!! with daily updates... i think something like this could at least made you show something to remember ST is still a game and not another internet urban legend.

With SP i had something similar but oposite, i had a CD with demos where with SP demo was "Panzer general" demo, i play it a lot an ignore SP but thanks to God i started in Cristhmas playing SP demo and a few months later i find in a shop PG and "PG allied assaut" + Steel Panthers Gold edition... i buyed the title i find more complete and i hit the target but imagine i continue ignoring SP demo... i think the other game is going to hurt a lot ST if is released soon and ST continues as fog.



tevans -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 3:35:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.


Ah, Jagged Alliance and UFO:Whatever are not War Games. They sound like Sci-Fi or Fantasy Games and hence they are not War Games.

Yet some form of Jagged Alliance or Jagged Alliance clone was/is sold by Matrix. Some people think of Matrix as a wargaming site. So you could draw the conclusion that a clone of Jagged Alliance is some type of wargame.



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 4:02:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.


Ah, Jagged Alliance and UFO:Whatever are not War Games. They sound like Sci-Fi or Fantasy Games and hence they are not War Games.


Not relevant to the point whether they are or not wargames.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 4:31:02 PM)

Well, I will still *probably* buy the game, depending on what else is available at the time. But I *certainly* won't buy the game out of any kind of devotion or loyalty to the devs, as I have with other games. Because based on their complete lack of communication for four years after announcing the game, I don't believe that these devs have earned that loyalty.

Their poor communication also gives the impression that they will make whatever game they want to make, instead of getting feedback from players about what they are looking for. That's fine, but it also means that I will wait for some time after release before deciding whether to buy, until I've seen several player reviews of the game. And then I'll only buy if I'm convinced that the game does in fact offer pretty much exactly what I want.

And finally, the complete lack of communication creates a very negative "buzz" about the game. Plenty of players that would previously have bought it, or at least stayed neutral, will now be more inclined to criticize it once it has been released. That kind of buzz does not help with sales... One of the huge advantages of a successor to Steel Panthers is the game's huge legacy player base; seems like a dubious decision to throw away that advantage by annoying legacy players.

All of these negatives could have been avoided by the simple expedient of spending 15-30 minutes per quarter providing some kind of update, so I continue to be surprised that the devs can't be bothered to do so. What you're seeing in this thread is not just players blowing off steam, but the steady, relentless, and perhaps soon-to-be-irreversible evaporation of this dev's credibility and level of customer loyalty.



Hexagon -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 4:41:19 PM)

I see it like 76mm, i dont have now any motive to buy the game first day even if appear with some kind of "blitkrieg marketing"... apart last title released that try use the "nostalgia" card was a complete fiasco because game was released in alpha status and devs disappear after a few weeks since release [:-] (i dont know who where the devs of game and i really dont care unless i see them related in other title).

In general for me now "Steel Tigers" is another game more, i follow it but i dont have money reserved to buy it (i am not going to hold my pocket when i see a book or other thing i want) and i have 0 link with the title, if finally appear and is good i am going to buy it but needs AT LEAST be as good as "Steel Panthers", if is unable to offer the same than a 25 years old game in content and his only card is going to be new graphics i simple pass... i am going to use the "i buy what i see" attitude and not the "i invest to made it grow" aproximation.

And well, we are going to see what devs understand by "Steel Panthers modern successor" not why we understand and this is not allways a good way to create the positive enviroment to made your product be a success.




ncc1701e -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 9:17:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
In general i think we can change "Steel" for "Fog" to represent better the game status [:D]

My vote is for "Phantom Tigers", has a nice ring to it.


What about Ghost? Or, better, Tigers in the shell? [;)]



ncc1701e -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 9:24:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't see mocking and deriding, I just see some folks having fun in the way they always do with a release they want but have no significant info on yet. Inevitably, phantoms, ghosts and vapor start to be discussed.

Whether a project is ready to be discussed publicly unfortunately has nothing to do with what's going on in the forum. I can tell you 2by3 are quite busy and so are we. When it comes to Steel Tigers, it's a big project and has already had a great deal of time put into it with much more to come. When it's ready to be discussed, we'll be happy to share information. Until then, all the silence means is that it's still in development.

Regards,

- Erik



That all sounds reasonable and plausible Erik.
But reality is rarely reasonable and that's not plausible, it the truth.
You might not see it as some guys just having fun. Maybe it isn't though.

I'm already no longer interested in their game.
I couldn't care less if they are close, or if it's 2 years away.
Chances are it wears a price tag close to the usual.
I can't see myself spending 60-80 bucks on a product that lost my loyalty, when I can just continue to play Steel Panthers for one thing.
I think the window for Steel Tigers is not only closed, but, it's looking like it has been bricked up too.
That game should have appeared between 2010 and 2015.

I have no plans to buy War in the East2, I'm not really playing War in the East1
Maybe they make enough on their titles to make it worth it. Not my business. Also not my problem though.

I'm not interested in graphics, I just want a good performing game.
I personally consider Battle Academy to be a superior game to anything that takes hours to perform a turn.
I'm unsure what they are planning to do to make Steel Tigers a replacement for why we play Steel Panthers.
But I'm guessing I'll probably be too busy playing another squad level tactical title at the time.

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.


MrsWargamer, just curious, did you try a Combat Mission game?



ncc1701e -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 9:33:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans

Here's the thing that bothers me. Why even announce the game if it's still years from being released? Why not just work on the game and announce it when it's ready to go? I think it's pointless to announce a game that's not ready for release. Maybe they do it to try to generate interest but in the long run it frustrates people and they end up losing interest. I'm like Mrs. Wargamer where Steel Tigers is concerned. Had it been ready to go when it was announced it would have been a day one purchase for me. But I've lost interest and won't take another look at it now because the game was announced months and years before it was ready for release. Same with War in the East 2 also. I do play War in the East 1 but I just can't see myself buying another version of the same game when the first version works just fine. Especially with the hefty pricetag that everybody knows will be put on the second version.


Well, was it formally announced? We had an article about Steel Tigers that will be the first game to use the Archon engine, that's all...



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 10:29:32 PM)

As described in the article linked in the first post of this thread, it was announced at a Slitherine Group annual conference. The text below was taken from the article:

Unlike the last couple of years, this year’s Sltherine Group annual conference is not open to the usual press suspects, instead it is a mainly developer only get together to discuss the future of digital wargames. However, the introductory session was broadcast on a live Twitch stream and as it included speeches from J.D. McNeil and Marco Minoli it did shed some light on developments within the biggest player in the traditional computer wargames market.
***
More importantly for the future, it was announced that the staff previously developing games will now become a new “tech support” division being set up to support other developers whose games are being published by the group...and it was mentioned that the first game to use this engine will be called Steel Tigers and is being developed by 2 by 3 Games (i.e. Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings and Keith Brors). The name is also intriguing as it suggests we will be looking at a “spiritual successor” (to use the over used phrase) of Steel Panthers …

Steel Tigers is now obviously not the first game to be released with the Archon engine, although it was supposed to be. Also, this article clearly states that the game is being developed by 2x3 (with some technical support from Matrix), while Iain later said that the game is being developed by Matrix.



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 10:39:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


MrsWargamer, just curious, did you try a Combat Mission game?



I have the first 3.

Never was fond of the view controls, a lot of fuss and fiddle. Like the WEGO aspect. I would likely prefer Close Combat More if it was WEGO. No view control issues.



Zap -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 10:45:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't see mocking and deriding, I just see some folks having fun in the way they always do with a release they want but have no significant info on yet. Inevitably, phantoms, ghosts and vapor start to be discussed.

Whether a project is ready to be discussed publicly unfortunately has nothing to do with what's going on in the forum. I can tell you 2by3 are quite busy and so are we. When it comes to Steel Tigers, it's a big project and has already had a great deal of time put into it with much more to come. When it's ready to be discussed, we'll be happy to share information. Until then, all the silence means is that it's still in development.

Regards,

- Erik



That all sounds reasonable and plausible Erik.
But reality is rarely reasonable and that's not plausible, it the truth.
You might not see it as some guys just having fun. Maybe it isn't though.

I'm already no longer interested in their game.
I couldn't care less if they are close, or if it's 2 years away.
Chances are it wears a price tag close to the usual.
I can't see myself spending 60-80 bucks on a product that lost my loyalty, when I can just continue to play Steel Panthers for one thing.
I think the window for Steel Tigers is not only closed, but, it's looking like it has been bricked up too.
That game should have appeared between 2010 and 2015.

I have no plans to buy War in the East2, I'm not really playing War in the East1
Maybe they make enough on their titles to make it worth it. Not my business. Also not my problem though.

I'm not interested in graphics, I just want a good performing game.
I personally consider Battle Academy to be a superior game to anything that takes hours to perform a turn.
I'm unsure what they are planning to do to make Steel Tigers a replacement for why we play Steel Panthers.
But I'm guessing I'll probably be too busy playing another squad level tactical title at the time.

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.


MrsWargamer, just curious, did you try a Combat Mission game?




The bottom line is the outcome. If the game meets the expectations, no matter how disgruntled one is. It will sell many copies. I expect all the negative comments will be left behind and those skeptical will embrace the game wholeheartedly. So heres to Steel Tigers meeting everyone's expectations. A tall order but 2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/30/2019 11:16:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
The bottom line is the outcome. If the game meets the expectations, no matter how disgruntled one is. It will sell many copies. I expect all the negative comments will be left behind and those skeptical will embrace the game wholeheartedly. So heres to Steel Tigers meeting everyone's expectations. A tall order but 2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

This is the correct observation. If the game is as popular as many think, it will be a must buy and 80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay will end up buying it, and become enthusiastic. I'm usually not in favor of customers threatening buy-sell decisions on the behavior of the designer, although certainly if the designer/seller is discourteous and attacks you (for any reason). But to manipulate design or timing of the game? No, not a good look.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 8:33:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
...2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

Well, no reason other than the fact that 2x3 hasn't said a single word about the game in the four years since it was announced, and the fact that it is not even clear at this point if 2x3 is developing the game any more.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 8:36:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 1:02:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.



Zap -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 1:29:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
...2by3 has in the past satisfied with many a great games. There is no reason to think differently now.

Well, no reason other than the fact that 2x3 hasn't said a single word about the game in the four years since it was announced, and the fact that it is not even clear at this point if 2x3 is developing the game any more.



Eric gave the answer in post #306. But that does not satisfy you? I don't need any more explanation, I get what he is saying politely, they are not ready to divulge more info at this point. In other words he's asking us to be patient and trust their judgement.



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 1:41:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.


This thread is comically chasing its tale now.
Fact, the devs haven't said a thing in 4 years publicly, nothing.
Fact, none of us has a real clue if the game is coming or not.
Fact, none of us have anything to go on, whether we will like it or not.
Fact, I'm 57, and that means OLD, no point in sugar-coating it. I could die tomorrow in my sleep. Or not for another 30 years. I have plans for old age, and most of it revolves around sitting and reading my romance novels.
Yes, there are indeed other games to play. Like the actual Steel Panthers.
And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.

It's a well known FACT, that most ASL players respond to "what other games do you play?" with "What are these other games you speak of?"
Most of the Steel Panthers community isn't really anxiously awaiting Steel Tigers, they're actively playing Steel Panthers. If it ain't broke, don't fix it eh.
And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.
Since ASL arrived, others have tried to copy it, and done to my opinion, a lame and in some cases lousy job of it. Advanced Tobruk is a total crock example.

I'm not planning to wait forever on this game.
And that's not some impatient 20 something wanting their PS4 fix now.
I have no intention of sitting for hours in front of a computer in my 60s. Might not even be an option.
And inasmuch as it is MY demographic that invented wargaming, I'll say it, most of the target market isn't in their 20s.



Hexagon -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/31/2019 2:00:54 PM)

Well, true is that you cant ask for "trust" with 4 years of total silence, not a simple real clue about whats going to be "Steel tigers" out of "Steel Panthers successor" tag, that is something with a double lecture... because sure is going to attract old SP players BUT at same time use the nostalgia card is going to made you simple cant spam one of that random craps like i see in last 4 years.

If you are unable to show or talk about your product in 4 years or you are working in a government secret project or if you are doing a game you simple dont have something to show or what you have done is not good enough...HELL in these 4 years even someebody had time to create a "Close Combat" from 0!!! well other option is you have an idea and you dont want customers say you are wrong... remember this is made to appear in a shop and pay real money to have it and again, we dont talk about a new game, we talk about a game that wants be the modern version of the best tactical WWII wargame in 90s (i know, CC and CM... but SP still is unique offering full war with full nations with full hardware).

I think more than trust this become a case of "faith" and well, i reserve my faith for familty/friends and the above Guy and if we talk about money only first [8|]


PD: other point is if i were 2by3 member i try show something in the moment appear a game showing content everyday that is in same market target my game is going to enter... as others said is not only release is release in time and not arrive late to find your niche occupied.



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