RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (Full Version)

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MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/15/2019 9:37:46 PM)

ALL I really want from Steel Tigers, is Steel Panthers ala 2019.

Steel Panthers, when you can understand the install process, and can find the add on fixes and super modded perks, and combine it with the Mega Campaigns, is still an awesome experience.

All I really want from Steel Tigers is a program that is ok with a Windows 10 liking, quad core type processor equipped and 8 gig Ram capable, TB drive using computer.
I don't like that my modern rig is unable to run a Windows 98 era program without geek skill. It's annoying, that we are expected to constantly upgrade our rigs, and yet, these super powerful rigs can't run something my bloody 486 could.

So the more it doesn't look like Steel Panthers, with modern code, the more it is likely to totally miss the mark with the Steel Panthers community.
I don't play 3d and I don't play RTS and I don't play World of Anything. I don't consider any form of shooter to be anywhere close to what I call wargaming. I still like pushing cardboard around a paper map. I'm 57, and unlikely to change any time soon.

And NONE of the gamers I've ever met called gamers, have ever heard of Matrix Games let alone 2by3. I think that REEEEALLY needs to sink in.
We are your market.



rwenstrup -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/15/2019 10:16:16 PM)

Excellent point MrsWargamer ...



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/15/2019 10:44:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ALL I really want from Steel Tigers, is Steel Panthers ala 2019.

Steel Panthers, when you can understand the install process, and can find the add on fixes and super modded perks, and combine it with the Mega Campaigns, is still an awesome experience.

All I really want from Steel Tigers is a program that is ok with a Windows 10 liking, quad core type processor equipped and 8 gig Ram capable, TB drive using computer.
I don't like that my modern rig is unable to run a Windows 98 era program without geek skill. It's annoying, that we are expected to constantly upgrade our rigs, and yet, these super powerful rigs can't run something my bloody 486 could.

So the more it doesn't look like Steel Panthers, with modern code, the more it is likely to totally miss the mark with the Steel Panthers community.
I don't play 3d and I don't play RTS and I don't play World of Anything. I don't consider any form of shooter to be anywhere close to what I call wargaming. I still like pushing cardboard around a paper map. I'm 57, and unlikely to change any time soon.

And NONE of the gamers I've ever met called gamers, have ever heard of Matrix Games let alone 2by3. I think that REEEEALLY needs to sink in.
We are your market.

MrsWargamer, if I may...

I am 59 years old. I do not play RTS or "World of Anything" either. 3D does NOT mean it's not hex map and turn-based. It is simply a manner of rendering images. Many turn-based games are 3D. I know, I've played them. A 3D Steel Tigers modeled on the old Steel Panthers would look fantastic; much more realistic than the original. So do not panic about 2x3 or anyone else making an RTS game. I have never heard a word of that. Those are scare tactics.

Everyone just needs to calm tf down.



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 12:08:03 AM)

No one really has ANY idea what Steel Tigers will look like. No one has said a single thing actually.

I should clarify. '3d' to me, is Combat Mission type 3d. RTS is predominantly not Close Combat type real time.

I don't really consider the image view of Steel Panthers, and Battle Academy, and Panzer Corps to be different enough to be worth calling this distinctly different.



DonCzirr -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 1:36:10 AM)

Didn't they say that Steel Tigers was going to use the Archon engine ?

That's what Sanctus Reach uses.

I could see that being translated over to historical scenarios .....



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 2:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
No one really has ANY idea what Steel Tigers will look like. No one has said a single thing actually.

Yeah, the total silence is pretty bizarre at this point...to announce a game four years ago and not be able to say a.single.word about it at this point? Pretty weird...

But, assuming that they're using the Archon engine and that the internal Matrix team is working on it (both true as far as we know), I'd bet that the game will feature an isometric view.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I don't really consider the image view of Steel Panthers, and Battle Academy, and Panzer Corps to be different enough to be worth calling this distinctly different.

I totally agree with Capitaine; isometric or top-down is purely a matter of visual representation, and an isometric view could look pretty nice. I'd be shocked if the game were anything but turn-based, although I do really hope that they stick with hexes instead of tiles or something else.



wodin -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 1:33:00 PM)

Personally I'm happy with isometric.

I'm cool if doesn't use hexes or tiles but a more realistic approach ie distance measured in pixels

I'm cool if it drops IGOUGO for WEGO (that isn't real-time by the way either). Flashpoint Campaigns has a fantastic turn resolution system.

Steel Panthers was renowned at the time for its depth and realism. Since then things have moved on and systems are far more powerful. So to be perfectly honest with you Id be very very happy if Steel Tigers becomes renowned for its depth and realism pushing PC power of today. I think just a visual upgrade to SP yes would be great, but also I feel it won't then be the new innovative in-depth game SP was in its day.

Just making a new visual look to old SP is not 2by3s style. They will I'm sure want to push current systems hard and use new innovative ways to make ST the long time classic SP was\is.

If you just want SP again, well you have it...go play😉😁

I imagine those SP obsessives will have many issues with the new game, cos it isn't SP. However if done aswell as SP was back in the day the new game will have its own devotees for many years to come.

In the end all I care about is that it has all the tactical features\mechanics, immersion and gameplay to make it by far the No1 tactical wargame ever released on PC.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 1:53:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Just making a new visual look to old SP is not 2by3s style. They will I'm sure want to push current systems hard and use new innovative ways to make ST the long time classic SP was\is.

But Iain is quoted above as saying the Matrix's internal team, rather than 2x3, is working on Steel Tigers, so it appears that there has been a change...



MrsWargamer -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 2:01:24 PM)

WEGO, oh I so want WEGO. I don't actually feel that lucky though :)



wodin -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 2:03:13 PM)

2by3 and Matrix I thought. Isn't that what was said from start? Joel actually stated that either himself or Gary favourite scale to develop was tactical so looking forward to it.

Also I think I asked him about it in interview.

I think Matrix is lending them a hand and their Archon engine. Obviously they will need an Archon engine expert or two from Matrix to help them.

I'm surprised Gary and Joel would just hand over such a big IP just like that with no input. If that's the case though then without their amazing talent my enthusiasm and faith in end product evaporates. No offence to Matrix team but they haven't done a hard core wargame yet and this I feel requires the experience 2by3 has. I think it's asking way to much to expect Matrix team can deliver something on par 2by3 would have done. The expectation is very very high and the development I imagine pretty complex and intense. Even more so if it's just the Matrix team developing it.



Zovs -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 2:20:53 PM)

If what your all saying is true then Steel Tigers is not really Steel Panthers at all, but a new game engine, built with a new game style, which is not Steel Panthers, but something new entirely.

Perhaps I am just getting old and nostalgic, but as a board war gamer for over 40 years and a PC war gamer for 28 years, my mindset is still on the traditional cardboard counters and paper maps which were translated into things such as Steel Panthers (aka ASL it's board war game brother if you will) and TOAW (and all it's grandfather war games such as SPI's War in Europe, any SPI game actually) and even JTCS games (taking their roots from Panzer Blitz/Leader).

I looked at this new engine and it's games do not appeal to me (Warhammer and other fantasy/space games) and I don't see how it translates into a tactical one tank or one squad game like how Steel Panthers is.

I am just not a huge fan of Isometric war games (JTCS is okay and Panzer Korps and OOB are okay for what they do but face it Steel Panthers is more detailed and tactical then any of those games).

I am still not sure what exactly a WEGO game system is, I don't have an issue with the tried and true IGOUGO systems. They have worked fine for over 40+ years.

I look at it like this, us old board wargamers are dying out and the new breed of gamers are taking over and want nothing to do with the old ways. I suppose in 20 years, people will be amazed at this post from an old Dinosaur who loves top down tactical war games or board war games conversions like TOAW.

RIP all you old Grognards that used to play Wargames



wodin -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 2:23:31 PM)

Well that really surprised me, in a good way though. I really thought you'd be a turn based only devotee!

Again not real time (I hate it and click fests. Only Graviteam and early CC ever did it well) but WEGO or simultaneous turns is for me the way to move forward. Again Flashpoint Campaigns with its clever mechanic of getting in the enemy's command loop so the side with the better training, comms and commanders can end up getting more chances to give unit's orders is genius, it should be the new standard taking over IGOUGO which no matter how you dress it up was a mechanic that was necessary due to boardgame restrictions and not because it was the most realistic way of doing things. It was the only way to do things. I imagine the pioneer of turns and boardgame wargames would have only be able to dream about a more realistic way where everything moves together like in real life. From a realism standpoint IGOUGO is fatally flawed, with many games having to abstract other things to get it to give reasonably realistic outcomes. There is no need for that now. I love Flashpoint way and CM because it's realistic, exciting and runs at a pace I like.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

WEGO, oh I so want WEGO. I don't actually feel that lucky though :)




76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 3:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
I looked at this new engine and it's games do not appeal to me (Warhammer and other fantasy/space games) and I don't see how it translates into a tactical one tank or one squad game like how Steel Panthers is.

Just because you don't like Warhammer and fantasy games (I don't either) doesn't mean that the Archon engine is not capable of more tactical games. FOG2 is both very attractive and a "serious" wargame, and it was made with Archon. I wouldn't write it off yet...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
I am just not a huge fan of Isometric war games (JTCS is okay and Panzer Korps and OOB are okay for what they do but face it Steel Panthers is more detailed and tactical then any of those games).

Non-serious wargames (as I consider PK & OOB etc) use isometric because it is "purdy" and so attracts more gamers. But that doesn't mean that you can't make a serious wargame with an isometric view, especially at the tactical level (at higher levels lack of stacking becomes an issue IMHO). I think JTCS is a good example, and to the extent that it is less detailed than Steel Panthers, I think it is because it is at platoon level and so slightly more abstract.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
I am still not sure what exactly a WEGO game system is, I don't have an issue with the tried and true IGOUGO systems. They have worked fine for over 40+ years.

Whoa...WEGO is when both players plan their turns separately, but they are executed simultaneously. I totally agree with Wodin that this should be the future. As Wodin says, best examples are Flashpoint campaigns and Combat Mission, which do it very well. Desert War also uses WEGO, but the result is a bit messy because the huge stacks in that game. WEGO is not RTS or real-time, because there are discrete, short turns--it's just that they are executed simultaneously instead of serially.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
I look at it like this, us old board wargamers are dying out and the new breed of gamers are taking over and want nothing to do with the old ways.

[:D] I'm also an old-time board wargamer, having started with ASL, a bunch of Avalon Hill titles, TSS, Korsun Pocket, and some other monster games. While I wouldn't say that I want nothing to do with the old ways, I have to admit that I have zero interest in ever playing a boardgame again, if for no other reason I don't want to waste time arguing with people about the rules. Computers offer many advantages for wargames, and games will continue to evolve to take advantage of them. Personally, I'm all for it! My biggest concern is the rising cost/time of game development, which is bound to adversely affect the quantity and quality of output for our very niche market.



Zovs -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 3:34:05 PM)

Thanks 76mm, that explains a lot to me.

I still have all my ASL stuff current (up to 2014 and they keep on churning stuff out). I don't think I have any WEGO systems. I'll keep an eye on it and see if any pop up that seem interesting. Desert War looked interesting but not jumped on that yet.

Time will tell...wait some of us don't have much of that left...lol :D



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 3:58:40 PM)

Let me just say for the record that in concept I don't have a problem with the WEGO rubric. It's the plotting I hate, hate, hate. That is why I love GG's "War in the East/West" far more than I do "War in the Pacific" which I just can't seem to tolerate.

There are issues with IGO/UGO, and there are issues with WEGO, conceptually. People tend to believe simultaneity = realism, but the slices of time w/o reaction in WEGO *are* a big conceptual issue for me. Along with the tedium of plotting (especially road columns in, say, Combat Mission -- a complete disaster which, to my knowledge, was never solved). So I'll get out of the Kumbaya circle once we hit the rejoicing over WEGO.



Twotribes -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 4:17:43 PM)

Pausable real time with an ability to change speed is doable with a war game too. Real time that is not pausable is not a war game but a click fest of who can click the fastest and who knows the quickest thing to build.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 5:39:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
People tend to believe simultaneity = realism, but the slices of time w/o reaction in WEGO *are* a big conceptual issue for me. Along with the tedium of plotting (especially road columns in, say, Combat Mission -- a complete disaster which, to my knowledge, was never solved).


I wanted to respond to these points, just so that those unfamiliar with WEGO can get another perspective...

1) I wouldn't agree that there are "slices of time w/o reaction"...all of the WEGO games I play do in fact feature AI-based reaction in the form of opportunity/defensive fire, etc...what you lack while the turns are being played out is control. But I generally like this aspect, because it forces you to think about what the enemy is trying to do, and how it will impact your own planned movements. And sometimes you are unexpectedly wrong-footed by the enemy's movements, just as IRL.

2) While I agree that the tedium necessary to plot road movements in CM is excessive, in my view this stems from the 3D nature of that game, not the fact that the game is WEGO...I don't think that "plotting" in WEGO games should be any more involved than "plotting" for IGOUGO, because either way you are plotting each unit's move during your turn...it's just that in WEGO the execution is deferred. An important feature is being able to see all units' plotted moves, otherwise it is very difficult to keep units aligned properly.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 8:10:07 PM)

Here's the counter to you 76mm: If you rely on an AI SOP to resolve the "time slices w/o reaction", are you even playing the game? Why not just click on a point on the map and have the AI handle all the movement and combat! It would be realistic: No overall commander had the ability to "move" all his troops; he could only give nearby objectives and order his unit leaders to handle the details of getting there and fighting.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 8:11:04 PM)

Here's the good thing about IGO/UGO: When I move a unit, it really moves and engages in combat.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 8:59:11 PM)

Here's another tip: If you want a WWII tactical 3D WEGO game, Matrix has already given it to you! It's Panzer Command Ostfront! Try it and see if you like it; its pacing, its terrain depiction, its realism, everything about it. Give me some in depth reviews about how you loved this game! It was what all the Combat Mission types clamored for. If you didn't like, why not?

Or do you just want want Matrix to give you a stab at yet another Combat Mission clone? Why not just play Combat Mission if it has everything you value? If you don't value something in CM, what is it?

I'm very curious.



Michael T -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/16/2019 9:36:23 PM)

A good example of a WEGO game built on to an old top down style board wargame is Frank Hunters 'Piercing Fortress Europe'. Nice game. Pity he did not expand on it to other fronts.

Interesting though is that Avalon Hill published WEGO PC games way back in the 90's. The World at War series (Crusader and Stalingrad). Great games way ahead of their time. They would stand up even today with a graphics update.



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 12:04:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
If you rely on an AI SOP to resolve the "time slices w/o reaction", are you even playing the game? Why not just click on a point on the map and have the AI handle all the movement and combat!

I don't understand your argument, frankly, the kind of opportunity/defenive fire that I was referring to in WEGO games is pretty much exactly the same as SP has as defenive opportunity fire. Feel free to handle every defensive shot, etc., manually, I'm not interested. And to claim that you just "click on a point on the map and AI the AI handle all the movement..." overlooks the fact that the whole point of WEGO is that you need to set up your unit for success during execution of its turn by having proper formations, sectors of fire, overwatch, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
Here's the good thing about IGO/UGO: When I move a unit, it really moves and engages in combat.

Sure, but that's a pretty low bar, met by games such as Risk and checkers. And if you plan your turn right, your units will move and fight in WEGO games as well...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
If you want a WWII tactical 3D WEGO game, Matrix has already given it to you! It's Panzer Command Ostfront! Try it and see if you like it; its pacing, its terrain depiction, its realism, everything about it. Give me some in depth reviews about how you loved this game! It was what all the Combat Mission types clamored for. If you didn't like, why not?

I played PCO when it came out ten years ago or whatever. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to give you an in-depth review of a game I last played ten years ago. I didn't care much for it at the time, mainly because I thought the then-current version of Combat Mission was better. But many people liked, and still like, the game. Moreover, I have no idea why this is relevant, because I've never said that all WEGO games are good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
Or do you just want want Matrix to give you a stab at yet another Combat Mission clone? Why not just play Combat Mission if it has everything you value? If you don't value something in CM, what is it?

I'm very curious.

I've never said I want a Combat Mission clone, did I? Actually I've said that I'm indifferent between top-down and isometric views, and that all I really want is a detailed, realistic tactical game (*cough* on the East Front). I'd prefer WEGO, but it doesn't have to be, I would also be quite happy with a graphically-updated version of classic SP.

Regarding CM, I actually preferred the first generation of CM games to the current generation; unfortunately I can't play the older games any more because of screen resolution issues.

I like the current Combat Mission games but can't say that I love them...their efforts at "hi-fidelity" (individual troops depicted, pixel-level LOS/LOF through individual tree branches, etc.) have been less than completely successful in my view, resulting in too many frustrating anomalies (tanks right in front not visible, LOF through forests because of threading the needle through a bunch of tree branches). Finally, Battlefront is far too slow in bringing out new content for these games...their East Front game came out more than five years ago with a pretty narrow scope (June 1944 in Belorussia), and no expansion packs have come out since then. Pathetic.

So I think there is definitely a sweet spot for a tactical game that would be more interesting for me than CM; I was hoping that this would be it but given the complete silence from the devs I don't see this coming out for several more years, and even then it will probably start in Western Europe. Oh well, maybe I'll start looking at games with orcs or something...



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 1:36:11 PM)

quote:

Sure, but that's a pretty low bar, met by games such as Risk and checkers. And if you plan your turn right, your units will move and fight in WEGO games as well...

Nope, you've got to move them first to plot them. Then they actually move and fight in the execution phase which you view in the "replay". This is cumbersome and undercuts pacing.

quote:

Moreover, I have no idea why this is relevant, because I've never said that all WEGO games are good.

First, I am not speaking only to you on this forum, but rather anyone who believes they fancy WEGO. It's relevant because PCO was seemingly a kind of WEGO Steel Panthers, as is being described by some herein. As for any or all WEGO games being good, name one that has had high popularity outside of the wargamer community. N.B. that Sid Meyer's Civilization series is a turn-based, grid-based game and has seen phenomenal popularity outside the wargamer community. So have games like Heroes of M&M which function similarly. What is the WEGO equivalent to these games, would you say?



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 1:55:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
First, I am not speaking only to you on this forum, but rather anyone who believes they fancy WEGO. It's relevant because PCO was seemingly a kind of WEGO Steel Panthers, as is being described by some herein.

PCO was a kind of WEGO Steel Panthers to the same extent that Combat Mission is. Both games have pluses and minuses, and while popular with some, are certainly not perfect. Like I say, it has been ten years since I've played PCO, but my recollection is that it had some weird issues concerning buildings that turned me off. But plenty of others liked it, so...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
As for any or all WEGO games being good, name one that has had high popularity outside of the wargamer community. N.B. that Sid Meyer's Civilization series is a turn-based, grid-based game and has seen phenomenal popularity outside the wargamer community. So have games like Heroes of M&M which function similarly. What is the WEGO equivalent to these games, would you say?

I don't play any games other than wargames, so I have absolutely no idea what WEGO non-wargames exist. But generally many non-wargames have all kind of features that I don't want to see in wargames--power-ups, health bars, respawns--so just because they're popular in other types of games doesn't mean that they are the best fit for wargames. And besides, no one has said that turn-based games don't work--of course they do--but in my opinion WEGO is generally a better approach for wargames.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 2:20:30 PM)

My point is that wargamers typically need the same kind of feedback and excitement level from games as other genres do. Oh sure, unit counters aren't "sexy" but the action of a turn-based IGO-UGO game is enjoyable among all gamers. It's the system I'm talking about, not genre features. What I'm observing is that seemingly no other genre has embraced a WEGO system... at all. Seems fairly illuminating to me: If you want a market success, don't use WEGO at all costs.



Kuokkanen -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 2:42:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Here's the counter to you 76mm: If you rely on an AI SOP to resolve the "time slices w/o reaction", are you even playing the game? Why not just click on a point on the map and have the AI handle all the movement and combat! It would be realistic: No overall commander had the ability to "move" all his troops; he could only give nearby objectives and order his unit leaders to handle the details of getting there and fighting.

Field of Strategy is just like that.
http://tpgames.free.fr/FoS/index2.html



76mm -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 6:20:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
My point is that wargamers typically need the same kind of feedback and excitement level from games as other genres do. Oh sure, unit counters aren't "sexy" but the action of a turn-based IGO-UGO game is enjoyable among all gamers.

I'm not sure why you think that WEGO games lack feedback or excitement, I completely disagree. And using counters has nothing to do with WEGO--many WEGO games use them...off the top of my head, Flashpoint Campaigns, Desert War and Piercing Fortress Europe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
What I'm observing is that seemingly no other genre has embraced a WEGO system... at all. Seems fairly illuminating to me: If you want a market success, don't use WEGO at all costs.

Games have been turn-based for hundreds of years, so that is what people are accustomed to, especially casual gamers--it will take time for WEGO games to become more common. And I don't agree with your repeated claims about other genres either--real time (ie, not turn-based) games are very popular among various other game genres. Real time games are simply WEGO games without built-in pauses.

Honestly you sound like a buggy-whip manufacturer complaining about those new-fangled horseless carriages.



Capitaine -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/17/2019 6:53:33 PM)

So be it. We strongly disagree. Play what you enjoy.



ncc1701e -> RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers (7/27/2019 6:03:53 PM)

Is there at least one screenshot to share as a teaser? I am curious.

I found this but it has nothing to do:
https://johnswargames.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/857/



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