quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

This is NOT a thread on the Confederate flag issue. So please do not make it one or this thread will be locked too [:(]

The Confederate has now been removed from South Carolina's state grounds. Also the Nazi flag is banned. So why (or how come) Japan can still fly their flag considering the servitude and issues they had in areas they occupied during the war? Just seems odd that Japan can still fly their WWII symbol versus others that are banned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf
If we banned every flag of a defeated country then France would be on its umpteenth new design by now... ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Regarding the Finnish Swastika... Yeah there's a Norse mythology background to it, but it should be noticed that Finnish culture is not Norse/Scandinavian and there actually is a Nazi connection between the Finnish Air Force "von Rosen Cross" and the NSDAP Swastika.

The Air Force used the Swastika because the first aircraft it had were donated by a certain Swedish baron named Eric von Rosen whose family used the Swastika as a family emblem. Air Force adopted it and used it in national flag colours of blue and white.

The connection to the Nazis is that the same man was also associated with the famous Nazi and long-time 3rd Reich Man Number 2 and leader of the Luftwaffe, Marshall Hermann Göring himself: their wives were sisters! And this is where the Nazis picked up the whole Swastika theme in the 1920s. It should be noted that at least later on von Rosen too had far right ideals himself and he was one of the founders of Swedish Nazi party. He was also the father of the very famous pilot-adventurer-mercenary Carl Gustav von Rosen(renown for his exploits in Africa).

Publicly using the NSDAP Swastika draws the attention of the police and gets one fined over here but the un-tilted, blue-on-white or black-on-blue swastika is still used in Air Force flags, unit insignias, president's flag as well as in a lot of medals. In the past it was also used by for example Lotta Svärd, females' voluntary auxiliary organization.


edit: one of my university's buildings is the former Air Force Headquarters in Helsinki. They still have Swastikas on the floors in marble... About 50 of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf
If we banned every flag of a defeated country then France would be on its umpteenth new design by now... ;)

Going OT here but you may get a chuckle from this :

The (almost) Complete Military History of France

Gallic Wars, 58-50 BC
Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian [or at that time in history, a Roman].

War against the Moors, late 700s-early 800s
Tied. Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, the French are unable to make much progress and hide behind Pyrenees until the modern day.

Norse (Viking) invasions, 841-911
Lost. After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King named Charles the Simple (really!) who gave them Normandy in return for peace. Normans proceed to become just about the only positive military bonus in France's favour for next 500 years.

Invasion of England, 1066
Claimed as a French victory: ”William the Conqueror, Duke and Ruler of France, launches the largest Invasion in the history of the world until the same trip was taken in reverse on June 6th 1944. William fights Harold for the Throne of England which old king Edward rightfully left to William but Harold had usurped. William fights the Saxons (English), wins - and the French rule England for the next 80 years. The French start the largest building and economic infrastructure program since the Roman Empire, the English economy skyrockets and the Normans inadvertently launch England to become a major world power - Vive la France!”

However, the truth is different and the French tend to overlook some basic facts. Firstly, the King of France at the time of the Norman invasion of 1066 was Philip the First (1060 - 1108). William the Conqueror was the Duke of Normandy and, incidentally, directly descended from the Vikings. Therefore William was as alien to France as the experience of victory is to the French. Since Philip did not invade England but William did, the victory at Hastings was Norman - not French. Normandy may be a part of France now but it most certainly wasn't in 1066. Therefore, William's coronation as King of England had nothing whatsoever to do with the French. As usual, the French were nowhere near the place when the fighting was going on. The mistaken belief that 1066 was a French victory leads to the First Rule of French Warfare; "When incapable of any victory whatsoever - claim someone else's".

Third Crusade, 1187–1192
Tied. Philip Augustus of France throws hissy-fit, leaves Crusade for Richard the Lion Heart to finish.

Albigenses Crusade, 1208
French-on-French loss (probably should be counted as victory too, just to be fair). Frenchmen massacared by Frenchmen - when asked how to differentiate a heretic from the faithful, response was "Kill them all. God will know His own." Lesson: French are badasses when fighting unarmed
men, women and children.

Seventh Crusade, 1248–1254
Lost. St. Louis of France leads Crusade to Egypt. Resoundingly crushed.

Eighth Crusade, 1270–1272
Lost. St. Louis back in action, this time in Tunis. See Seventh Crusade.

Hundred Years War, 1337-1453
Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

Italian Wars, 1494-1559
Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

French Wars of Religion, 1562-1598
Another French-on French loss.

Thirty Years War, 1618-1648
France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

India, 1673-1813
Lost. British were far more charming than French and ended up as victors. Therefore the British are well known for their tea, and the French for their whine - er, wine. Ensures 200 years of bad teeth in England.

The French-Dutch War, 1672-1678
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.

War of the Augsburg League / Nine Year’s War, 1688-1697
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.

War of the Spanish Succession, 1701-1714
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.
Gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

[Three ties in a row induce deluded Frogophiles to label the period as the height of French military power.]

Seven Year’s War / French and Indian War, 1756-1763
Lost. After getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada (Wolfe at Quebec) and India (Clive at Plassey).

American Revolution, 1778-1783
Claimed as won. Eager for revenge after having lost the Seven Year’s War, France joins the fight after waiting and watching for three years. In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Third Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

French Revolution, 1789-1799
Won! Primarily due the fact that the opponents were also French. In an internal civil war, much blood is shed and a lot of reactionary heads are chopped off with the guillotine, including the king’s. All this for having a dictator aspiring to become emperor as head of state at the end of the revolution. French logic!

Haiti, 1791-1804
Lost. French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare: “When in doubt, send an ally.”

Wars of the French Revolution, 1792-1802
Tied at best. France manages to spread some revolutionary principles around Europe and the Middle East, creating widesread chaos and misery and triggering the first total wars, but no other country actually follows France and changes its form of government.

1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S.
Lost. French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually caves in; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.

Napoleonic Wars, 1803-1815
Lost. Temporary victories (remember the Second Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
It should be noted that the Grand Armée was largely (~%50) composed of non-Frenchmen after 1804 - mainly disgruntled minorities, anti-monarchists and soldiers forcibly contributed from occupied territories. Not surprisingly, these performed better than the French on many occasions.

(American) Barbary Wars, 1801-1815
Since the Middle Ages, pirates in North Africa continually harassed European shipping in the Mediterranean. France's solution: Pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: Kick their asses
("to the Shores of Tripoli" in the Marines hymn) in the United States first overseas victories.

Mexico, 1863-1864
Lost. France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier ("From the Halls of Montezuma" in the Marines hymn). Not surprisingly, the only unit to distinguish itself is the French Foreign Legion (by definition consisting of non-Frenchmen). Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.

Franco-Prussian War, 1870-1871
Lost. Germany plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

Panama jungles, 1881-1890
With no one but nature to fight, France still loses; Panama canal is finally built by the U.S. 1904-1914.

World War I, 1914-1918
Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

World War II, 1939-1945
Lost. France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking the head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defences.
Conquered French are finally liberated by the United States, Britain, Canada and minor Allies (plus a handful of Frenchmen like the “Commando Kiefer” and the “2ieme DB” which are later glorified as if having liberated France all by themselves) - just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song. Of course, after the war all Frenchmen labelled themselves as resistance fighters. Note that the last defenders of the Führer bunker at Berlin were French SS men (no wonder the defence was unsuccessful).

War in Indochina, 1946-1954
Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu. Only force to cover itself with glory is again the French Foreign Legion (composed mostly of Germans at that time).

Algerian Rebellion, 1956-1963
Lost. Marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.
The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years of colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair.

Deleted the part on the War on Terrorism since 2001 since it can get political...

Source: The internet, edited and expanded by me

To our French friends : Take it easy, just poking some fun - I live, work and pay my taxes in France by choice and love your country!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Regarding the Finnish Swastika... Yeah there's a Norse mythology background to it, but it should be noticed that Finnish culture is not Norse/Scandinavian and there actually is a Nazi connection between the Finnish Air Force "von Rosen Cross" and the NSDAP Swastika.

The Air Force used the Swastika because the first aircraft it had were donated by a certain Swedish baron named Eric von Rosen whose family used the Swastika as a family emblem. Air Force adopted it and used it in national flag colours of blue and white.

The connection to the Nazis is that the same man was also associated with the famous Nazi and long-time 3rd Reich Man Number 2 and leader of the Luftwaffe, Marshall Hermann Göring himself: their wives were sisters! And this is where the Nazis picked up the whole Swastika theme in the 1920s. It should be noted that at least later on von Rosen too had far right ideals himself and he was one of the founders of Swedish Nazi party. He was also the father of the very famous pilot-adventurer-mercenary Carl Gustav von Rosen(renown for his exploits in Africa).

Publicly using the NSDAP Swastika draws the attention of the police and gets one fined over here but the un-tilted, blue-on-white or black-on-blue swastika is still used in Air Force flags, unit insignias, president's flag as well as in a lot of medals. In the past it was also used by for example Lotta Svärd, females' voluntary auxiliary organization.


edit: one of my university's buildings is the former Air Force Headquarters in Helsinki. They still have Swastikas on the floors in marble... About 50 of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf
If we banned every flag of a defeated country then France would be on its umpteenth new design by now... ;)

Going OT here but you may get a chuckle from this :

The (almost) Complete Military History of France

Gallic Wars, 58-50 BC
Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian [or at that time in history, a Roman].

War against the Moors, late 700s-early 800s
Tied. Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, the French are unable to make much progress and hide behind Pyrenees until the modern day.

Norse (Viking) invasions, 841-911
Lost. After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King named Charles the Simple (really!) who gave them Normandy in return for peace. Normans proceed to become just about the only positive military bonus in France's favour for next 500 years.

Invasion of England, 1066
Claimed as a French victory: ”William the Conqueror, Duke and Ruler of France, launches the largest Invasion in the history of the world until the same trip was taken in reverse on June 6th 1944. William fights Harold for the Throne of England which old king Edward rightfully left to William but Harold had usurped. William fights the Saxons (English), wins - and the French rule England for the next 80 years. The French start the largest building and economic infrastructure program since the Roman Empire, the English economy skyrockets and the Normans inadvertently launch England to become a major world power - Vive la France!”

However, the truth is different and the French tend to overlook some basic facts. Firstly, the King of France at the time of the Norman invasion of 1066 was Philip the First (1060 - 1108). William the Conqueror was the Duke of Normandy and, incidentally, directly descended from the Vikings. Therefore William was as alien to France as the experience of victory is to the French. Since Philip did not invade England but William did, the victory at Hastings was Norman - not French. Normandy may be a part of France now but it most certainly wasn't in 1066. Therefore, William's coronation as King of England had nothing whatsoever to do with the French. As usual, the French were nowhere near the place when the fighting was going on. The mistaken belief that 1066 was a French victory leads to the First Rule of French Warfare; "When incapable of any victory whatsoever - claim someone else's".

Third Crusade, 1187–1192
Tied. Philip Augustus of France throws hissy-fit, leaves Crusade for Richard the Lion Heart to finish.

Albigenses Crusade, 1208
French-on-French loss (probably should be counted as victory too, just to be fair). Frenchmen massacared by Frenchmen - when asked how to differentiate a heretic from the faithful, response was "Kill them all. God will know His own." Lesson: French are badasses when fighting unarmed
men, women and children.

Seventh Crusade, 1248–1254
Lost. St. Louis of France leads Crusade to Egypt. Resoundingly crushed.

Eighth Crusade, 1270–1272
Lost. St. Louis back in action, this time in Tunis. See Seventh Crusade.

Hundred Years War, 1337-1453
Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

Italian Wars, 1494-1559
Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

French Wars of Religion, 1562-1598
Another French-on French loss.

Thirty Years War, 1618-1648
France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

India, 1673-1813
Lost. British were far more charming than French and ended up as victors. Therefore the British are well known for their tea, and the French for their whine - er, wine. Ensures 200 years of bad teeth in England.

The French-Dutch War, 1672-1678
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.

War of the Augsburg League / Nine Year’s War, 1688-1697
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.

War of the Spanish Succession, 1701-1714
Tied. Some territorial gains but war aims not achieved.
Gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

[Three ties in a row induce deluded Frogophiles to label the period as the height of French military power.]

Seven Year’s War / French and Indian War, 1756-1763
Lost. After getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada (Wolfe at Quebec) and India (Clive at Plassey).

American Revolution, 1778-1783
Claimed as won. Eager for revenge after having lost the Seven Year’s War, France joins the fight after waiting and watching for three years. In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Third Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

French Revolution, 1789-1799
Won! Primarily due the fact that the opponents were also French. In an internal civil war, much blood is shed and a lot of reactionary heads are chopped off with the guillotine, including the king’s. All this for having a dictator aspiring to become emperor as head of state at the end of the revolution. French logic!

Haiti, 1791-1804
Lost. French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare: “When in doubt, send an ally.”

Wars of the French Revolution, 1792-1802
Tied at best. France manages to spread some revolutionary principles around Europe and the Middle East, creating widesread chaos and misery and triggering the first total wars, but no other country actually follows France and changes its form of government.

1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S.
Lost. French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually caves in; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.

Napoleonic Wars, 1803-1815
Lost. Temporary victories (remember the Second Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
It should be noted that the Grand Armée was largely (~%50) composed of non-Frenchmen after 1804 - mainly disgruntled minorities, anti-monarchists and soldiers forcibly contributed from occupied territories. Not surprisingly, these performed better than the French on many occasions.

(American) Barbary Wars, 1801-1815
Since the Middle Ages, pirates in North Africa continually harassed European shipping in the Mediterranean. France's solution: Pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: Kick their asses
("to the Shores of Tripoli" in the Marines hymn) in the United States first overseas victories.

Mexico, 1863-1864
Lost. France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier ("From the Halls of Montezuma" in the Marines hymn). Not surprisingly, the only unit to distinguish itself is the French Foreign Legion (by definition consisting of non-Frenchmen). Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.

Franco-Prussian War, 1870-1871
Lost. Germany plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

Panama jungles, 1881-1890
With no one but nature to fight, France still loses; Panama canal is finally built by the U.S. 1904-1914.

World War I, 1914-1918
Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

World War II, 1939-1945
Lost. France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking the head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defences.
Conquered French are finally liberated by the United States, Britain, Canada and minor Allies (plus a handful of Frenchmen like the “Commando Kiefer” and the “2ieme DB” which are later glorified as if having liberated France all by themselves) - just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song. Of course, after the war all Frenchmen labelled themselves as resistance fighters. Note that the last defenders of the Führer bunker at Berlin were French SS men (no wonder the defence was unsuccessful).

War in Indochina, 1946-1954
Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu. Only force to cover itself with glory is again the French Foreign Legion (composed mostly of Germans at that time).

Algerian Rebellion, 1956-1963
Lost. Marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.
The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years of colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair.

Deleted the part on the War on Terrorism since 2001 since it can get political...

Source: The internet, edited and expanded by me

To our French friends : Take it easy, just poking some fun - I live, work and pay my taxes in France by choice and love your country!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

This one is for Warspite:

If wars were won by feasting,
Or victory by song,
Or safety found,
by sleeping sound
How England would be strong!
But honour and dominion
Are not maintained so,
They're only got by sword and shot
And this the Dutchmen know!

The moneys that should feed us
You spend on your delight,
How can you then,
have sailor-men
To aid you in your fight?
Our fish and cheese are rotten,
Which makes the scurvy grow
We cannot serve you if we starve,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Our ships in every harbour
Be neither whole nor sound,
And when we seek to mend a leak,
No oakum can be found,
Or, if it is, the caulkers,
And carpenters also,
For lack of pay have gone away,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Mere powder, guns and bullets,
we scarce can get at all;
Their price was spent in merriment
And revel at Whitehall,
While we in tattered doublets
From ship to ship must row,
Beseeching friends for odds and ends
And this the Dutchmen know!

No King will heed our warnings,
No Court will pay our claims
Our King and Court for their disport
Do sell the very Thames!
For, now De Ruyter's topsails
Off naked Chatham show,
We dare not meet him with our fleet
And this the Dutchmen know!

quote:

Just my opinion here, it's all about what symbols mean to people. The swastika had positive meanings in many cultures for centuries. It had meaning to the Hopi, the Tibetans, and Norse mythology. The swastika used on Finnish aircraft predated the Nazi era because of its meaning in Norse mythology. The Nazis probably adopted it because of the connection with Norse mythology. Today it is usually not used in its ancient context because of the meaning it has a symbol to so many people. Some people use that symbol to express their ideology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Thank you for not taking this down the modern political route.

BTW, the rising sun flag gas always been the Japanese naval ensign. It got associated with Imperial Japan of the 1940s, but they still flew the red dot flag as their national flag before and after that time.

Just my opinion here, it's all about what symbols mean to people. The swastika had positive meanings in many cultures for centuries. It had meaning to the Hopi, the Tibetans, and Norse mythology. The swastika used on Finnish aircraft predated the Nazi era because of its meaning in Norse mythology. The Nazis probably adopted it because of the connection with Norse mythology. Today it is usually not used in its ancient context because of the meaning it has a symbol to so many people. Some people use that symbol to express their ideology.

The Japanese Navy's ensign is still associated with Imperial Japan in a lot of minds, but nobody today is using it to forward any of the beliefs of Imperial Japan at its worst. The Code of Bushido was a horrible warping of the Samurai code and it led to terrible injustices, but it was also a uniquely Japan thing. When Japan abandoned it in 1945, the whole mythos died with it. Nobody uses the Japanese naval ensign as a symbol of their modern ideology, so the world just goes on any ignores its continued use.

When symbols lose meaning for contemporary ideologies, they become historical relics, possibly a curiosity to anyone who notices they are still being used, and little else. How many people today feel strongly about the symbols used in the War of the Roses? The bad blood from that war simmered under the surface in England for generations after the war ended, but history moved on and the issues died. It probably helped that the two competing factions for the throne died out, but the whole meaning of the factions died with time. Some people who have studied the history understand the reasons for the war, but the vast majority of people either don't know it happened, or don't care.

I'll avoid discussing the modern context for any other symbols that have been in the news. This isn't the place for it.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The "bonnie blue flag" was Mississippi's first state flag, I believe, nothing to do with Texas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Here's a site showing it. You'll also see that the "Stars and Bars" was not the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee as many people believe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

It's odd that the swastika was an ancient India (as in Asia) symbol of good luck and still is. I wonder if that history for the 45th is mistaken. The swastika can be seen on headstones etc. from India and the Nazis took it as an Aryan symbol for that reason.