ASW Oerations Questions. (Full Version)

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charlee22009 -> ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 3:44:05 AM)

Hi, just want to ask some questions about the current state of ASW.
Please see the embedded diagram as I don't want to type all of that again...
Thanks





[image]local://upfiles/52028/8D45D077B7294C8EB65C4603A338F4A9.jpg[/image]



charlee22009 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 8:44:34 AM)

Uh, bump?
Can any experts shed some light on this?
Is the passive sonar model where if ought to be?
Thanks



Marder -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 9:37:34 AM)

From German Wikipedia:

"Neben den beschriebenen Standardbojen gibt es auch aufwendigere Spezialtypen: DIFAR-Bojen (Directional Frequency Analysis and Recording), die durch Schalldruck-Gradienten-Bildung oder durch eine horizontale Anordnung von Hydrophonen eine horizontale Richtungsbestimmung ermöglichen. Die VLAD-Bojen (Vertical Line Array Directional)-Bojen lösen darüber hinaus auch vertikal auf."

translated with translate.google=

"In addition to the standard described buoys there are also more expensive special types: DIFAR buoys (Directional Frequency Analysis and Recording), which, through sound pressure gradient formation or by a horizontal array of hydrophones a horizontal direction determination. The VLAD-buoys (Vertical Line Array Directional) buoys solve addition to vertically."

source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoboje

So i think the difar can not calculate the depth.

//edit: the difference in depth-detection seem not to be modeled
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/printable.asp?m=3631005



Dimitris -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 10:48:44 AM)

quote:

How is precise speed and depth determined?

Speed is estimated from classification. Do you have information suggesting that this buoy cannot provide a depth estimate?



Dimitris -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 10:50:12 AM)

quote:

Quick range estimation. Realistic?

Yes.



Dimitris -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 10:53:21 AM)

quote:

Provides bearing-only detection. And yet seems to immediately range the POSSUB. How is this possible?


Triangulation, combining info from the other buoys and possibly other sensors.

One hint: This is not DW, and you are not the sonar operator sitting in your console and getting raw sensor data. You are the TAO (and higher), and data comes to you after it has been refined, cross-checked and sanity-checked (most of the time).



charlee22009 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 10:54:01 AM)

Thanks marder for your response. No, afaik, difar cannot determine depth. And there was only the difar detecting the ssn (according to text box?).

So how was depth determined? :)

Just impatient for the resolution of the exercise. Aar is important :)



Dimitris -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 10:55:28 AM)

quote:

Perhaps passive sonar contacts should be a line of bearing, like RWR?


When they are on their own, that's exactly what they are (more strictly, they are long triangles). When they are combined with data from other sensors, they shrink to a much smaller area.

#SENSORFUSION



ComDev -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 12:04:06 PM)

Thanks for bringing this one up, I'll look into it after the holiday [8D]



mikmykWS -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 12:14:11 PM)

I will be nice
I will be nice
I will be nice



Marder -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 12:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Thanks for bringing this one up, I'll look into it after the holiday [8D]


Have nice and relaxing holidays.



thewood1 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 1:15:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: charlee22009

Uh, bump?
Can any experts shed some light on this?
Is the passive sonar model where if ought to be?
Thanks


Really...four freaking hours after the first post on a fairly innocuous question? I assume you are sitting somewhere in the North Atlantic on a tin can and need an answer before prosecuting an attack.



charlee22009 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 5:36:05 PM)

Tin can... Yes exactly? Internet by satellite is provided to our warship, just wanted to make sure these tactics check out before my evaluation. Don't want to let the crew down.
Anyway

I greatly appreciate the responses and the attention here on the forums.

And I hate to keep asking, but I'm still confused.
The oceanlord mh-60r was not providing other information at the time
And as far as I know only the one buoy, #71, had picked up the contact, so sensor fusion would be impossible?

Just want to confirm that difar can provide depth on its own.
Thanks!



thewood1 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 6:00:05 PM)

And exactly howcmuch time do you think it would take on a weekend to answer your question?

Since you don't seem to take a hint...how about giving someone some time to actually answer instead of spamming the same thread. Comes across a being pretty impatient.



SeaQueen -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/19/2015 8:30:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Speed is estimated from classification. Do you have information suggesting that this buoy cannot provide a depth estimate?


There are many different ways to estimate depth. You might, for example, know something about the beam pattern of the sensor and then guess from that. There are various sorts of interference patterns which might also yield clues to depth.



charlee22009 -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/21/2015 2:42:24 AM)

Thank you seaqueen for your response.
I am interested in learning more about asw, but at some point it seems you come up against a wall, where the capabilities and techniques are classified. Enjoying command a great deal, with mostly a great community.

:)



SeaQueen -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/21/2015 4:00:54 PM)

Classification issues aside, ASW is enormously technical. A lot of it is about geometry and statistics. If you aren't comfortable doing math, then you will have trouble. The good news is that Command does a lot of that for you, with it's calculating areas of uncertainty and what not. There are unclassified sources that will definitely give you some good information, like Naval Operations Analysis or Search and Screening. You'd better be pretty comfortable with calculus to get through them, though. There's a lot of good books out there on underwater acoustics, too. Those tend to be VERY technical.

The idea behind a game like Command, though, isn't for you to duplicate what they'd actually do, though. I don't think that's even particularly interesting. I think it's more to figure out your own ways of doing things, and rationales behind them. In theory, if the simulation is reasonable and you make good decisions, you end up learning a lot about how things actually work, but you might also discover innovative tactics of your own.


quote:

ORIGINAL: charlee22009
I am interested in learning more about asw, but at some point it seems you come up against a wall, where the capabilities and techniques are classified.




p1t1o -> RE: ASW Oerations Questions. (7/21/2015 7:33:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: charlee22009

Tin can... Yes exactly? Internet by satellite is provided to our warship, just wanted to make sure these tactics check out before my evaluation. Don't want to let the crew down.
Anyway

I greatly appreciate the responses and the attention here on the forums.

And I hate to keep asking, but I'm still confused.
The oceanlord mh-60r was not providing other information at the time
And as far as I know only the one buoy, #71, had picked up the contact, so sensor fusion would be impossible?

Just want to confirm that difar can provide depth on its own.
Thanks!


Ah, I think I just figured it out. I was wondering which sensors were being "fused" as well. Even though the goblin is within range of only a single sensor, data has been correlated over time - in the 6 minutes since the first contact, the submarine would have moved (most likely) giving that one sensor multiple data points to refine the range. This will be how depth and speed are calculated as well, even though the only raw positional data you are getting is bearings.



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