How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (Full Version)

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mktours -> How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 11:15:35 AM)

I am going to play the first SHC game in 1.08.04, and I want to know how many HI and armaments need to be saved.
I look up the forum and could not find the information, could somebody share his knowledge about it?
Many thanks!



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 11:39:42 AM)

The Ratio from what Ive heard is each heavy industry can support about 1.6 Armaments.

In my game vs pelton I saved just over 200 HI and just over 300 Armaments and im doing fine, easily supplying/mainting over 7M man army from start of 1942 onwards. Making about 100,000 armaments per turn in 1942.

So once 1943 hits with the upgrade to industry I should be doing awesome.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 11:43:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The Ratio from what Ive heard is each heavy industry can support about 1.6 Armaments.

In my game vs pelton I saved just over 200 HI and just over 300 Armaments and im doing fine, easily supplying/mainting over 7M man army from start of 1942 onwards. Making about 100,000 armaments per turn in 1942.

So once 1943 hits with the upgrade to industry I should be doing awesome.

Thanks very much for sharing the much needed info! I play with 50% transport, so it looks impossible to save so many, but maybe soviet could afford to lose more.
Saving 200 HI in your game is an excellent result. Congratulate for the good performance.
In my last SHC game I only save 173 HI, and won in 1943. But I learned that in 1.08.04, HI is more important than previous versions, so maybe more number is needed.



morvael -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:04:52 PM)

I think HI is now more important than in the past, so make sure the 1.6 ratio that chaos45 provided is coming from "modern" games.



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:08:43 PM)

You can look at Pelton vs Smokindave in AAR as well- As Smokin lost alot of industry/manpower but still managed to stay in the game and is doing very close to historical.

Loki in his AAR I think it is talks about the ratio needed. Hes done more research than me, I tried to get more heavy out as it affects supplies and I figured more supplies = a bigger end result Soviet army in the long run.

IDK in the current edition of the game I doubt Soviets will win in 1943- Im constantly short on both manpower and armaments just maintaining a 7M man army. Even when alot of units arent wiped out by encirclements. Once I get some extra armaments I build some artillery, for the last several months of game play- summer 1942 its mainly been manpower shortages not allowing my army to grow much. As I prolly lose 50k+ men per turn and am only replacing 100k men per turn....an thats with holding pretty historical manpower center amounts.

I think 1943 will be slow gains against the Germans as my industry finally gears up plus massive amounts of trucks from lend-lease. Plus the encirclement losses should finally stop by summer 1943 so my manpower should be more and more gains with fewer big jumps in losses. Even in my game vs pelton the last several turns I havent suffered any major encirclements for a month or so now and total army strength hasnt increased much. 20k-30k pockets here and there that you just cant stop as the soviets in 1942.

Not to mention as long as the German player is still even slowly pacmanning soviet units you still need AP to build replacement units. When what you really need to be doing is building up for an offensive force/additional army HQs- especially tank army HQs. Im finding not having enough HQs is a major problem, as I need a ton of mass to successfully counterattack which means they need to be under effective Command and control or all the -% to your values saps your strength.




mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:15:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think HI is now more important than in the past, so make sure the 1.6 ratio that chaos45 provided is coming from "modern" games.

Hi, Morvael
How is the ratio in modern game, is it lower than 1.6? how much is it then?
Please do share some info about the HI, I really know very little of it, many thanks!



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:19:08 PM)

The 1.6 ratio is from current games. I dont think there is a hard and fast answer but thats the closest Ive seen and it seems to be working for my game.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:27:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

You can look at Pelton vs Smokindave in AAR as well- As Smokin lost alot of industry/manpower but still managed to stay in the game and is doing very close to historical.

Loki in his AAR I think it is talks about the ratio needed. Hes done more research than me, I tried to get more heavy out as it affects supplies and I figured more supplies = a bigger end result Soviet army in the long run.

IDK in the current edition of the game I doubt Soviets will win in 1943- Im constantly short on both manpower and armaments just maintaining a 7M man army. Even when alot of units arent wiped out by encirclements. Once I get some extra armaments I build some artillery, for the last several months of game play- summer 1942 its mainly been manpower shortages not allowing my army to grow much. As I prolly lose 50k+ men per turn and am only replacing 100k men per turn....an thats with holding pretty historical manpower center amounts.

I think 1943 will be slow gains against the Germans as my industry finally gears up plus massive amounts of trucks from lend-lease. Plus the encirclement losses should finally stop by summer 1943 so my manpower should be more and more gains with fewer big jumps in losses. Even in my game vs pelton the last several turns I havent suffered any major encirclements for a month or so now and total army strength hasnt increased much. 20k-30k pockets here and there that you just cant stop as the soviets in 1942.

Not to mention as long as the German player is still even slowly pacmanning soviet units you still need AP to build replacement units. When what you really need to be doing is building up for an offensive force/additional army HQs- especially tank army HQs. Im finding not having enough HQs is a major problem, as I need a ton of mass to successfully counterattack which means they need to be under effective Command and control or all the -% to your values saps your strength.



Yes, I see the Pelton Vs Dave game, the Number of HI is also low, 136HI.
The playing style differs from player to player, so it is hard to compare. I think maybe SHC don't need so huge army, but SHC could improve the efficiency and avoid too much loss, that is just my point of view.



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:29:06 PM)

Link to post where Loki talks alot about Soviet industry in his games.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3821747&mpage=3&key=

Yes you can survive on less I dont disagree.

However have extra is always good IMO. The more mass the Soviet Army has in 1942 the better as the Mass helps to prevent German encirclment operations IMO. Most of the encirclements I have suffered is because those sectors didnt have a mass of primary/secondary defense lines with reserves.

It probably depends on the skill of the German player as Pelton is quite good....but I found that in 1942 I couldnt in effect get the needed amount of forces all along the line and had to pick and choose...which then the germans just use that massive 50MP to hit you where your not if they are smart. Even in places where I did have multiple defense lines he was able to slowly grind forward despite stacks of 3 soviets units in forts with units on reserve activations.

Now my army for most of 1942 has been around 7M men- roughly 15-20 Cav corps most guards at any given time-had these since the winter offensive and once I got tank corps I formed 20 tank corps. So you can see I played less of a mass army. I also have a fair amount of guards infantry corps in play at this point as well.

You really cant stop the Germans if they really just want to take a couple hexes...you can make them pay in losses but not stop them completely in 1942.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:30:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The 1.6 ratio is from current games. I dont think there is a hard and fast answer but thats the closest Ive seen and it seems to be working for my game.

So I have misunderstood the sentence of Mavael, I see now that he is confirming that your number is correct, so previous the ratio is higher, and now is 1.6.
Thanks for sharing and confirming the info.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (7/31/2015 12:43:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Link to post where Loki talks alot about Soviet industry in his games.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3821747&mpage=3&key=

Yes you can survive on less I dont disagree.

However have extra is always good IMO. The more mass the Soviet Army has in 1942 the better as the Mass helps to prevent German encirclment operations IMO. Most of the encirclements I have suffered is because those sectors didnt have a mass of primary/secondary defense lines with reserves.

It probably depends on the skill of the German player as Pelton is quite good....but I found that in 1942 I couldnt in effect get the needed amount of forces all along the line and had to pick and choose...which then the germans just use that massive 50MP to hit you where your not if they are smart. Even in places where I did have multiple defense lines he was able to slowly grind forward despite stacks of 3 soviets units in forts with units on reserve activations.

Now my army for most of 1942 has been around 7M men- roughly 15-20 Cav corps most guards at any given time-had these since the winter offensive and once I got tank corps I formed 20 tank corps. So you can see I played less of a mass army. I also have a fair amount of guards infantry corps in play at this point as well.

You really cant stop the Germans if they really just want to take a couple hexes...you can make them pay in losses but not stop them completely in 1942.

Yes, Loki's AAR is great!
I just went to his AAR and it is really helpful.
Your performance is very impressive, given that is your first SHC game. I believe that you could improve significantly in your second game.



Peltonx -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/1/2015 1:43:12 PM)

You can lose far more then what loki has stated and still easly win under .04.

There are still late war issues that lower German OOB by design and not by what has taken place on the battle field.

morvael and company have greatly fixed allot of exploits/bugs , but some still exist under .04.

So as long as you hold Moscow. You can loses 3x historical industry, lose far more cities, lose far more land and still atleast get a draw and more then likely win out right.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3738744

.05 fixes these issues and I advise people to hold off starting new games as many of the fixes will not help .04 games

Which is why I am not starting any new ones until .05 is release, I don't want to do far better then historical and still have Berlin fall before May.

Its already nearly impossible to get a draw all things being equal as Germany, it makes it very hard when you have to beat the human and the game design to get a draw.

The game is very good and historical 41-43. Not as a book or movie, but as HvH. 44-45 is WAD, but the design is piss poor as 41-43 were at one time.

I am very confident that morvael with .05 will finally after 3+ yrs have the game basicly playable WAD and a good design from 41-45.

Players from both sides will be able to finally injoy the game from 41-45.

We will not be seeing 500,000 armament and manpower pts sitting in the pools in early 44 when they should be at the front fighting

[&o]morvael and Company[&o]



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/1/2015 2:41:22 PM)

I think Pelton overstates Soviet recovery ability. Which probably comes from only playing against them.

The German OOB issues may be creating more of the issues he has problems with than he realizes.

Even with historical manpower/industry the Soviet army only grows slowly in 1942- because attrition losses eat up alot of the manpower gains you are getting due to the low experience of your frontline formations. Any pockets in 1942 can easily give the Soviet army a net negative strength for a turn in the summer of 1942.

I think with lower than historical industry the issues you will see as the Soviets- lack of armaments to really build up artillery formations, lack of armaments to fill out cavalry corps- best units the Soviets have until it seems 1944 from what Ive seen. As those cav squads cost a ton of armaments points.

In late 1943 on it seems the guard tank corps finally catch up with Guard Cav corps and surpass them slightly due to morale bonus an such. Another big advantage of Soviet cav corps though is they have no guards limits like it seems all other Soviet units do. Even in 1944- a guard tank corps will rock 24-26 with attachments a Guard Cav corps around 22 when at max morale and mostly trained to morale levels. Also the Cav corps take so many fewer trucks is the huge massive advantage they give. 200 trucks compared 2k for tank corps and 3k for mech corps.

So in effect if you have the armaments from saving industry building out Cav Corps in the long game is a good advantage for Soviets. However they are armaments hogs.

So the big effect on the Soviets if you lose to many armaments points is it will take you longer to get on the offensive and in general you will end up with a slightly lower quality army- less cav and less heavy artillery. As it will take you longer to build up your offensive formations.

Plus you will most likely have to forgo lots of Cav corps and concentrate on infantry formations- which will make 1942 tougher on the Soviets as you will lack counterpunch ability without the Cav Corps.

Just my opinions from my ongoing game.



swkuh -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/1/2015 2:47:00 PM)

KUDOS for your analysis. One quibble:

Game must reflect West Front issues & timeline, air campaign, troop requirements, morale issues, etc. and perhaps that explains why Axis is guaranteed loser.

Know, here, that 41-43 is very improved, but can't say much about "44-"45. Hard to work "41 campaign that far. What's your issue w/'44-'45?

Indeed, .05 is awaited here, and will be appreciated.




loki100 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/1/2015 7:37:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

...
There are still late war issues that lower German OOB by design and not by what has taken place on the battle field.




The problem is the game is full of these hard wired impacts that happened in reality but put effect after cause in the game. So yes, in reality Soviet morale collapsed in the summer of 1942. But it wasn't because the calender reached April 42, it was because of the disaster at Kharkov and the stunning German victories at Voronezh and Rostov. The return to the 'days of 1941' (and you find that phrase in a lot of Soviet literature) was pretty demoralising.

Now the game gives the German player that effect, and it underpins a lot of 1942 offensives but that is really the wrong way around.

I have no problem with this, its a way of railroading the game to some degree of realism but its important to bear in mind the effect/cause relationship is reversed.

In turn you are right that the 1944 TOEs for the Germans were the response to the shattering losses of 1943. But those TOEs completely changed the battlefield to the end of the war, leaving the German infantry divisions as essentially purely defensive formations and forcing the Germans to run the Pzrs into the ground reacting to the Soviets. Now as with the 1942 switch of fortunes, I have no problem with that, even if in some games cause and effect are reversed as its one way to model the shift in operational capacity that occured as 1943 went on.

If 1.08.05 generally improves the late game, that is good, but I think is a different issue to your concern?

btw, you really seem to have rattled someones cage, you are mentioned in steam dispatches



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/3/2015 9:30:40 AM)

Thanks to all the people who comments here! The information is much needed and very helpful!



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/3/2015 11:42:59 AM)

Mktours- take a look at my threat on Soviet Production research- basically you want at least 180 HI as Soviets is the finding. More is better but 180 is the bare minimum to maintain a good size army and continue full production via supplies.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/5/2015 4:02:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Mktours- take a look at my threat on Soviet Production research- basically you want at least 180 HI as Soviets is the finding. More is better but 180 is the bare minimum to maintain a good size army and continue full production via supplies.

Chaos45
Thanks very much, so the checking line is 180 HI, 288 Armaments.
I got it.



chaos45 -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/5/2015 11:45:52 AM)

Mktours- Armaments is always better to save more. Once you get 180 HI out and your other critical assests- T34/KV1 factories an such you should get as many armaments points out as possible.

As historical armaments is like 310+ and at 180 HI you can maintain all of them in production.

If you only get out say 275-285 armaments you can actually get by with only like 175 HI.

Now keep in mind I say get by with, saving more is always better as it will allow the Soviet army to rebuild faster and not have to watch production as closely.



mktours -> RE: How many HI and armament need to be save in 1.08.04? (8/7/2015 5:28:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Mktours- Armaments is always better to save more. Once you get 180 HI out and your other critical assests- T34/KV1 factories an such you should get as many armaments points out as possible.

As historical armaments is like 310+ and at 180 HI you can maintain all of them in production.

If you only get out say 275-285 armaments you can actually get by with only like 175 HI.

Now keep in mind I say get by with, saving more is always better as it will allow the Soviet army to rebuild faster and not have to watch production as closely.

Thanks for clarify the info, I got it.



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