RE: WitE 2 (Full Version)

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Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: WitE 2 (2/21/2020 2:21:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Model1950

quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

There's so much going on in this game that each turn is a journey in itself, always bringing some new understanding and depth, which is where most of the fun lies for me.

Looking forward to see WitE2 in action! Thank you for this update.

Edited to remove the insult




The mask slips!

And you'd been on best behaviour for so long :'(



joelmar -> RE: WitE 2 (2/21/2020 11:06:46 AM)

quote:


@Model1950
Edited to remove the insult


Oh, The mighty Lord of The Gifts himself speaks to me. Don't you know Bombadil doesn't care about the Ring?



xhoel -> RE: WitE 2 (2/21/2020 11:50:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Model1950

Edited to remove the insult



What a bizarre comment. Are you ok man?



joelmar -> RE: WitE 2 (2/21/2020 1:03:44 PM)

quote:


@xhoel

What a bizarre comment. Are you ok man?


Tourette is a very sad sickness. [sm=00000939.gif]



djnightmar3 -> RE: WitE 2 (2/22/2020 8:51:33 PM)

Has it been considered to change the dynamic of turns?
the biggest complaint about realism is that units did not roam free for 7 days/it did not take 7 days for the enemy to react in any way.
if i understand air attacks in turns it would be something similar to this, where units can be be attacked by air units during the turn.
i would propose that both axis and soviets be able to attack in each turn, after the first turn of course,i just think that units should have more liberty and flexibility.
if i'm not understood i will clarify in a reply.



eskuche -> RE: WitE 2 (2/22/2020 11:26:48 PM)

I had this thought too, then looking at some books, it turns out that many times on the ostfront, reactions WERE that slow.



Karri -> RE: WitE 2 (2/23/2020 12:28:37 AM)

That would be impossible, or would just result in a very convoluted turn structure.

...though, I wouldn't throw away the possibility of tweaking with reserves and unit activations. What if you could set up a trigger on which your reserve units would counter-attack? ie. Axis occupy Kursk, and as a result selected units will launch all-out attack towards hex x,y?



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: WitE 2 (2/23/2020 1:51:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djnightmar3

Has it been considered to change the dynamic of turns?
the biggest complaint about realism is that units did not roam free for 7 days/it did not take 7 days for the enemy to react in any way.
if i understand air attacks in turns it would be something similar to this, where units can be be attacked by air units during the turn.
i would propose that both axis and soviets be able to attack in each turn, after the first turn of course,i just think that units should have more liberty and flexibility.
if i'm not understood i will clarify in a reply.


Put simply - it's not going to happen. To change the ground war from IGOUGO to WEGO would mean a fundamental reprogramming of the whole game.

If it helps your 'suspension of disbelief' it is worth remembering that the Soviet turn takes place in the same week so in theory what you are seeing is 3.5 day Axis offensives followed by 3.5 day Soviet reactions.

Or you could come at it from a different direction - your typical German division with the maximum 16MP can move 8 hexes into enemy territory assuming no opposition and clear terrain i.e perfect conditions. Given a hex size of 10 miles/hex and assuming a 10hr/day march you have 80 miles covered in 3.5 days/35hrs marching - so progress of 2.3 miles an hour. For reference Wikipedia has a typical US Army march pace at 3.4mph.




uw06670 -> RE: WitE 2 (2/23/2020 3:13:47 PM)

I think for the first week or so Turns should be shorter, like 2 days. And maybe give the Sovs a random chance of being frozen or unfrozen, with more units becoming unfrozen every 2 days. Some Soviet armor was in motion on 6/22 other units waiting for orders for days.



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (2/23/2020 6:26:23 PM)

We very early on ruled out changing the turn scale (in fact removed the 4 day special turn 1 and went to 7 days for all turns). The full campaign is already 200+ turns long. We've added combat delay rules and reserve activations can be significant, including on the first turn. We lose some granularity, but that's always going to be the case with a hex based, turn based game. We still feel this is the best way to go. While the map scale hasn't changed, the map has as we used a better projection system. This leads to a longer front line from Leningrad to Rostov in terms of number of hexes versus WitE1. That, along with a more accurate terrain and road model makes things feel somewhat different.



821Bobo -> RE: WitE 2 (2/24/2020 8:21:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We very early on ruled out changing the turn scale (in fact removed the 4 day special turn 1 and went to 7 days for all turns). The full campaign is already 200+ turns long. We've added combat delay rules and reserve activations can be significant, including on the first turn. We lose some granularity, but that's always going to be the case with a hex based, turn based game. We still feel this is the best way to go. While the map scale hasn't changed, the map has as we used a better projection system. This leads to a longer front line from Leningrad to Rostov in terms of number of hexes versus WitE1. That, along with a more accurate terrain and road model makes things feel somewhat different.


Maybe worth to point out that now the not present first 4 day turn doesn't get Axis behind time table. It is very easy to capture Minsk on T1. In AGN and AGC sectors it is possible to reach places not possible in WitE.



AugustvonMackensen -> RE: WitE 2 (2/24/2020 10:10:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: djnightmar3
[...]
If it helps your 'suspension of disbelief' it is worth remembering that the Soviet turn takes place in the same week so in theory what you are seeing is 3.5 day Axis offensives followed by 3.5 day Soviet reactions.
[...]


I also imagine that the extra movement cost for enemy/pending-friendly hexes tries to represent small-scale combat in enemy territory (ambushes, a nasty roadblock that has to be taken or circumvented, etc.)



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 12:41:47 AM)

Yes it does, and in WitE2 it's even more important to understand that you are moving in "hostile" territory even though it has been captured during the current turn. Extra fatigue costs, the inability to use admin movement (which you can use in friendly territory), and lower combat preparation(another new system) recovery means sometimes it's better to stop and rest in cleared areas as opposed to moving through newly captured territory.



JosephM -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 3:23:00 PM)

Hello All,

Apologies for the comment made by that user. We have given them a warning and edited all posts to remove his comment, which has no place on the forums. This thread will remain open, as it is important for the community, but I'd like to advise all users to respect each other and to encourage an open and engaged community, not to troll or throw insults around. I hope you are all looking forward to WitE2, and continue to engage with this and offer constructive critism where this is applicable



joelmar -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 4:03:41 PM)

quote:


@JosephM

Apologies for the comment made by that user. We have given them a warning and edited all posts to remove his comment, which has no place on the forums. This thread will remain open, as it is important for the community, but I'd like to advise all users to respect each other and to encourage an open and engaged community, not to troll or throw insults around. I hope you are all looking forward to WitE2, and continue to engage with this and offer constructive critism where this is applicable


Thanks to you. That user has lots to bring to the community and I don't think anyone wants to see him banished, not me anyway. Hoping he will heed your warning and follow your advice.



Telemecus -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 4:50:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar
quote:


@JosephM
Apologies for the comment made by that user. We have given them a warning and edited all posts to remove his comment, which has no place on the forums. This thread will remain open, as it is important for the community, but I'd like to advise all users to respect each other and to encourage an open and engaged community, not to troll or throw insults around. I hope you are all looking forward to WitE2, and continue to engage with this and offer constructive critism where this is applicable

Thanks to you. That user has lots to bring to the community and I don't think anyone wants to see him banished, not me anyway. Hoping he will heed your warning and follow your advice.


I think good moderation is a friend to all as it helps those who do have a lot to give to go that way and not in a bad direction. If left too late to take action you end up losing the good with the bad. This is a thrilling time to be involved in these kind of games and I am sure WitE1 and Wite2 are coming up to great times.



joelmar -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 5:13:06 PM)

quote:


@Telemecus

I think good moderation is a friend to all as it helps those who do have a lot to give to go that way and not in a bad direction. If left too late to take action you end up losing the good with the bad. This is a thrilling time to be involved in these kind of games and I am sure WitE1 and Wite2 are coming up to great times.


+1



OberGeneral -> RE: WitE 2 (2/25/2020 7:05:44 PM)

+1



Karri -> RE: WitE 2 (2/26/2020 5:34:09 PM)

Can we get a word on the AI? I am yet to play WitE against human opponent, and don't really want to either. The AI however pretty much sucks, and there is no way of really modifying it. Are there any changes in this regard?



king171717 -> RE: WitE 2 (2/26/2020 7:40:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Can we get a word on the AI? I am yet to play WitE against human opponent, and don't really want to either. The AI however pretty much sucks, and there is no way of really modifying it. Are there any changes in this regard?


playing against another person is so much better. Why are u not wanting too?



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 12:07:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Can we get a word on the AI? I am yet to play WitE against human opponent, and don't really want to either. The AI however pretty much sucks, and there is no way of really modifying it. Are there any changes in this regard?


A lot of time has been spent on the AI in WitE2 (more than in WitE). However, the AI is not a human. The attacking AI always needs help level adjustments, more than the defending AI. We believe that the AI has to be decent, and Gary spends the bulk of his time working on the AI, and he has a lot of experience at it. But making an AI as good as a good human without any help level adjustments is more than can be done (without cheating). Of course you should turn on full fog of war. Some games improve their AI by having it cheat in ways that are very difficult to see. We try to avoid this, at least at the normal play level, but at the higher levels it starts to get some advantages, although not advantages that it can abuse in the same way a player might. We think the AI makes for a good game, but over time as the player gets more experienced with the game, you have to crank up the help level or find human opponents. By that time you've probably invested a lot of time learning and enjoying the game. Your mileage may vary.



eskuche -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 12:09:31 AM)

Time and competition nervousness are two reasons one might not want to play against another human. That being said, it's instructive to play against oneself (with alcohol between player swaps perhaps).



Karri -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 12:41:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Can we get a word on the AI? I am yet to play WitE against human opponent, and don't really want to either. The AI however pretty much sucks, and there is no way of really modifying it. Are there any changes in this regard?


playing against another person is so much better. Why are u not wanting too?


I want to play a game, not run an Excel spreadsheet workshop. Playing against the AI is more of a beer&pretzels thing, I don't have to optimise every last thing, do kabuki dances with air bases, meticulously go through TOE settings etc etc etc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

A lot of time has been spent on the AI in WitE2 (more than in WitE). However, the AI is not a human. The attacking AI always needs help level adjustments, more than the defending AI. We believe that the AI has to be decent, and Gary spends the bulk of his time working on the AI, and he has a lot of experience at it. But making an AI as good as a good human without any help level adjustments is more than can be done (without cheating). Of course you should turn on full fog of war. Some games improve their AI by having it cheat in ways that are very difficult to see. We try to avoid this, at least at the normal play level, but at the higher levels it starts to get some advantages, although not advantages that it can abuse in the same way a player might. We think the AI makes for a good game, but over time as the player gets more experienced with the game, you have to crank up the help level or find human opponents. By that time you've probably invested a lot of time learning and enjoying the game. Your mileage may vary.


It is possible to give some options for modding? WitE doesn't really allow for any fine tuning.



Joel Billings -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 3:48:36 AM)

You can't mod the AI, but you can use the editor to adjust things in a particular scenario. I'm not saying it's easy to do, but it can be done. If you play beer & pretzels, the Soviet AI should give you a run for your money, especially if you're willing to give it some morale help.

As one that grew up playing both sides in board games, I can understand the lack of interest in doing in on the computer. I've tested against the AI and against human players. Human players are much more fun but require much more time if you want to play it against a strong opponent. Part of playing against a human is choosing someone at your play level, but even so, I realize that many only have time and interest in the AI and that's why we spend so much time on it. I still enjoy playing against the AI, but I'm obviously biased.



Telemecus -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 10:33:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Can we get a word on the AI? I am yet to play WitE against human opponent, and don't really want to either. The AI however pretty much sucks, and there is no way of really modifying it. Are there any changes in this regard?


playing against another person is so much better. Why are u not wanting too?


I want to play a game, not run an Excel spreadsheet workshop. Playing against the AI is more of a beer&pretzels thing, I don't have to optimise every last thing, do kabuki dances with air bases, meticulously go through TOE settings etc etc etc


[:D] That is a fair comment.

But you can match up with players who prefer a casual game too. Two people I knew who played without all that intensity asked me if there was anyone who can play like that and I matched them up. And they are having a great time. So it is possible to play another person without going the Full Monty.



xhoel -> RE: WitE 2 (2/27/2020 1:46:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I want to play a game, not run an Excel spreadsheet workshop. Playing against the AI is more of a beer&pretzels thing, I don't have to optimise every last thing, do kabuki dances with air bases, meticulously go through TOE settings etc etc etc



You don't need to do any of those things. There are players who do them and enjoy them, just like there are players who prefer a much more casual game. You just need to look for them.



edski -> RE: WitE 2 (2/28/2020 1:50:20 PM)

Long time player since the days of War in Russia (Last Century) Been watching the forum for a long time and now wish to offer my humble opinion.

PC power has progressed since the days of DOS and more sophisticated algorithms have been developed to model logistics and game play in a more accurate and realistic manner. WITE & WITW are the best and most accurate games around. My hat is off the the programmers for such outstanding programs. As PC power has increased ( and I remember the days of punch cards), computers are now able to do much more since the days of WITE when released nearly 10 years ago.

I appreciate the WITE2 engine is an enhanced version of WITW and close to the BETA release with the air combat still being refined, but the following tweaks would be nice on the air side

wish list

air units in the west have the option to train with modest resource use, rest & refit with minimal resource use, and fight the WITW AI once the allied bombing campaign starts to protect factories. If the allies take a blood nose from strong fighters presence in the west, allied bombing of factories would be delayed until losses are made good. The Germans have limited resources and play fire brigade moving assets to stabilize one front at the expense on another.

Being able to manage the fighter/bomber pool with some options would be nice (training/transfer etc)


Cannot wait until WITE2 is released. Until then I await with bated breath until the much anticipated release.


[&o][&o][&o]



OberGeneral -> RE: WitE 2 (2/29/2020 4:36:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: edski

Long time player since the days of War in Russia (Last Century) Been watching the forum for a long time and now wish to offer my humble opinion.

PC power has progressed since the days of DOS and more sophisticated algorithms have been developed to model logistics and game play in a more accurate and realistic manner. WITE & WITW are the best and most accurate games around. My hat is off the the programmers for such outstanding programs. As PC power has increased ( and I remember the days of punch cards), computers are now able to do much more since the days of WITE when released nearly 10 years ago.

I appreciate the WITE2 engine is an enhanced version of WITW and close to the BETA release with the air combat still being refined, but the following tweaks would be nice on the air side

wish list

air units in the west have the option to train with modest resource use, rest & refit with minimal resource use, and fight the WITW AI once the allied bombing campaign starts to protect factories. If the allies take a blood nose from strong fighters presence in the west, allied bombing of factories would be delayed until losses are made good. The Germans have limited resources and play fire brigade moving assets to stabilize one front at the expense on another.

Being able to manage the fighter/bomber pool with some options would be nice (training/transfer etc)


Cannot wait until WITE2 is released. Until then I await with bated breath until the much anticipated release.


[&o][&o][&o]


OMG! Punched cards. You took me back to the late 60's to early 70's!!

I agree with you that the air war needs some tweaking. It is a very problematic part of these games IMHO.
Constantly having to move air assets as the front advances is annoying to say the least.



mooreshawnm -> RE: WitE 2 (2/29/2020 5:03:18 PM)

Speaking of WiR (and Western Front)...I MUCH preferred the old air system to either WitE or (especially) WitW.



edski -> RE: WitE 2 (3/1/2020 9:41:26 AM)

With each successive generation of computers, the pure processing grunt has made quantum leaps with the level of detail the game can achieve. The air war in WITW is quite impressive with the level of detail and its impact of the land warfare mechanics.

For the purist who loves to micro manage everything (such as myself), there are never enough levers to manipulate, but at the same time there needs to be limits so to keep the game manageable and playable.


There will always be too much detail or not enough and therefore it is impossible to make the perfect game to satisfy everybody, but in my humbe opinion WITE in 2010 was incredible as was WITW and i'm sure WITE2 will raise the bar again.


The air war in the west was constantly chewing up resources (aircraft and air crew) as the allied resources grew, a limited management stance on an aggressive or defensive posture against allied aircraft would use up more or less German resources and potentially Allied air power growth. It is robbing Peter to pay Paul and eventually the allies will overwhelm the limited resources of the Germans but it is another lever to pull as the Germans play fire brigade across both fronts as historically was the case.




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