Why are CVs so brittle? (Full Version)

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RayYoung -> Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 4:01:55 PM)

Hi guys. I have enjoyed and learned so much here that I can't imagine how anyone even starts this game without already having come here to learn the basics.

I don't have so much of a problem as an observation.

I read through "The Little Ship that Could" and learned more about what does on to keep a ship going than I could ever have imagined. It was truly enjoyable and I hated the "story" to end.

But, what it did do is make me aware and sensitive to how I handle the TFs. Still, I find that the USN CVs seem to be incapable of leaving port even at cruise speeds and not end up with Systems Damage.

Virtually all of the escorts have some as well. The DD's are obvious, but the CAs???

It isn't has if they are hard running.

Now, it isn't that I don't expect them to suffer "wear and tear", but it seems to accumulate rather quickly. I can't get Enterprise and Lex from PH to Midway and back without the need to put them in the shipyard for at least a couple of days for repairs.

Again, I am NOT running Full Speed. I use either Human Control or Computer Control at Mission or Cruise speed.

Is this something that can be addressed via the Editor?



jamesjohns -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 4:30:46 PM)

While I can't address the game engine, I do think the idea of system damage and repairs to be very much in the spirit of the game. I try to view it not just as a game but about as close to a game/simulation as we will ever get.

If something as large and complex as a cargo ship, let alone a Carrier, goes half-way across the Pacific I expect things are going to break-down. I know ships, espi Navy ships have highly skilled people on board and machine shops to do repairs but soethings just can't be done in the middle of the ocean; lack of repair parts, need to take a system that is otherwise working completly off-line to do maintance or a minor repair, so forth.

I was never in the Navy, but in the Army we spend a lot of time doing repairs of equipment after missions, fixing everything from minor stuff that broke but wasn't mission critical to major things that broke and could not be repaired in the field. Some of this was also making sure everything that could be fix was fixed and triple checking everything else that could break but wasn't. Last thing you want to have happen, but still does, is equipment breaks in the middle of a mission.

Think about taking your car on a 10,000 mile trip. Chances are at least get the oil changed, put more windshield fluid in, check the radiator, check the tires, clean-out the pop cans and fast food wrappers, so forth.

Now imagine you are taking the same car on another trip where life may depend upon the car getting you out of there....and how much time you will spend on getting the car ready for that trip.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 4:42:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RayYoung

Hi guys. I have enjoyed and learned so much here that I can't imagine how anyone even starts this game without already having come here to learn the basics.

I don't have so much of a problem as an observation.

I read through "The Little Ship that Could" and learned more about what does on to keep a ship going than I could ever have imagined. It was truly enjoyable and I hated the "story" to end.

But, what it did do is make me aware and sensitive to how I handle the TFs. Still, I find that the USN CVs seem to be incapable of leaving port even at cruise speeds and not end up with Systems Damage.

Virtually all of the escorts have some as well. The DD's are obvious, but the CAs???

It isn't has if they are hard running.

Now, it isn't that I don't expect them to suffer "wear and tear", but it seems to accumulate rather quickly. I can't get Enterprise and Lex from PH to Midway and back without the need to put them in the shipyard for at least a couple of days for repairs.

Again, I am NOT running Full Speed. I use either Human Control or Computer Control at Mission or Cruise speed.

Is this something that can be addressed via the Editor?


If you need the shipyard for repairs after going to Midway you're doing something wrong. Probably overusing the shipyard. You'd only need it at PH if Major Floatation damage was substantial.

If you have not, read this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2990845&mpage=1&key=ship%2Crepair

Much will become clearer on the subject of ship repair.



dr.hal -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 4:45:30 PM)

If one were to try and reflect reality, the game is FAR FAR more forgiving than real life. Having spend the better part of a decade on warships, I can tell you first hand, the minute you leave port, problems start happening and NOT just little ones. Weapons systems and propulsion are really open to damage, but hotel services as well... so in truth the game is kind... it plays down this aspect much more than one realizes.... Hal



RayYoung -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 5:33:41 PM)

Thanks for the responses. As always the knowledge base available here in invaluable.

I think that, for my part, perhaps I am too sensitive at this point to ship "damage". I put ships into Pier Side Repairs at level 1 Sys Damage regularly. Any capital ship with damage that takes more than a day that is also in a Shipyard repair port gets put there as well. I try to pretty much keep them zeros straight across. So, perhaps I have become over sensitive and anal about this.

So, the follow up has to be.....when is it a matter of concern for ship damage to start worrying about it?

I have followed up on the board with the 101 Ship Damage thread and I generally understand the concepts.

I am thinking that when the display colors for damage are other than green it is time to worry. Otherwise, not so much.



geofflambert -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 5:54:15 PM)

I can't substantiate that the game has weather caused damage but in reality rough weather and heavy seas do a lot. I had a TF come into port looking like it had been through a typhoon. Flotation damage on all ships. Maybe it was just a lot of collisions.



jmalter -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 6:12:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
If one were to try and reflect reality, the game is FAR FAR more forgiving than real life.

Gotta agree w/ dr.hal - the game lets us off lightly, not only in the random 'steaming damage' but even more so in the 'random events' category.

In truth, ships were far more subject to systems failure & sailing mishaps IRL than is modeled in the game. Collisions, groundings, contaminated drinking water, the infamous 'HOR' diesels on many USN subs, no parts available for repair - it's a wonder any ship could put to sea!

But in the game, it's really a measure of how much wear'n'tear degradation one can accept before deciding that a ship is no longer 'combat capable'. Do you require that all your CVs & their escorts are pristine, all applicable upgrades performed, all airgroups fully-filled? Likely you'll be spending most of your time in port.

But what level of sys-damage & less-than-perfect status are you willing to accept when you set out for a pre-planned operation? Are you willing to delay, or are you gonna set sail?



Admiral DadMan -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 6:13:38 PM)

I dock my sheeps weekly for shipyard periods. Keeps them nice and shiny...



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 6:57:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RayYoung

Thanks for the responses. As always the knowledge base available here in invaluable.

I think that, for my part, perhaps I am too sensitive at this point to ship "damage". I put ships into Pier Side Repairs at level 1 Sys Damage regularly. Any capital ship with damage that takes more than a day that is also in a Shipyard repair port gets put there as well. I try to pretty much keep them zeros straight across. So, perhaps I have become over sensitive and anal about this.

So, the follow up has to be.....when is it a matter of concern for ship damage to start worrying about it?

I have followed up on the board with the 101 Ship Damage thread and I generally understand the concepts.

I am thinking that when the display colors for damage are other than green it is time to worry. Otherwise, not so much.


As the 101 document makes clear it is often slower to repair total damage in a shipyard than in a pier/shipyard combo. The reason is that pierside repair can source ship's compliment, any ARs not otherwise occupied, naval support, plus native pierside repair points. In the shipyard only shipyard repair points may be accessed. Shipyards can repair anything (except in a few cases very large weapons' damage that needs a very large yard), but using a shipyard to repair system damage is usually inefficient.

When to repair is a judgment call. It depends on the type of ship, where it is, how soon you need it, what era you're in, etc. I pierside repair single points of damage all the time. But not every time. OTOH, if your CL has 10 points of system damage when the battle starts it's 10 fewer points available to survive the torpedo-caused flooding after the battle. In some cases system damage can also increase DLs due to smoke.

Choices, always with the choices . . .



RayYoung -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 7:04:31 PM)

I appreciate the insights and info.

Thanks to everyone contributing.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 7:41:05 PM)

I have to say I used to be a bit peeved about the damage levels that occur to ships, then I read this: Rising Sun, Falling Skies: The Disastrous Java Sea Campaign of World War II (General Military)

Staggering how things could and did fail all the time and how few ships were ever really fully functional.

Roger



HansBolter -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 8:25:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I can't substantiate that the game has weather caused damage but in reality rough weather and heavy seas do a lot. I had a TF come into port looking like it had been through a typhoon. Flotation damage on all ships. Maybe it was just a lot of collisions.


Operate in the Arctic area during winter and sail through a few blizzard hexes and you WILL be able to substantiate that weather causes damage.

I used to fuss over keeping every ship tidy and shipshape, never wanting to send them out with any damage at all.

I came to realize that in RL almost no combat unit is ever at full strength and likely no ship is ever operating with zero damage or wear and tear.

Now I make an effort to not sned anyone out with more the 10 system or 5 floatation or sufficient engine damage to drop their speed.

Truth is you have to use what you got when you got it and fussing over not using it unless it is pristine is a luxury.

Can't 5 points of non-major damage be repaired in ready state without the need to go pierside?




geofflambert -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 8:31:02 PM)

Another thing, especially on US ships damage is stabilized and often substantially repaired under way.



GetAssista -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 8:51:23 PM)

Seas are rough, system damage is bound to happen but it's not critical, ships are just as useful with 5 points as with 0.
In reality TF38 lost 3 DDs with 800 sailors perished going through typhoon December 1944. Thankfully we have none of these in the game



dr.hal -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/2/2015 10:25:09 PM)

Even large ships are not immune despite having a large crew and good repair facilities.

And the comment about foul weather is a reality. In truth the Pacific in NO way lives up to its name. It is anything but pacifist. While on the Constellation (CV 64) we were hit by a typhoon (and thankfully it was pretty far off) and while the tin-cans that escorted us rode the waves up and down no problem, were were TOO BIG and thus were thrown around badly. One wave came over the aft sponson (an outcrop from the ships hull) that was a refueling station with a giant winch on it (about 10 tons of steel) and the wave sweep the sponson clean, I mean there was NOTHING left on it.... that's the power that's out there. The game doesn't take into account any of these violent storms that were killers (Read "Halsey's Storm"). My uncle's ship (YMS 472) went down off Okinawa during one of these storm in September 45 (soon to be a motion picture, from the book "Six Days on a Raft") and it was not totally uncommon to losses ships during each of these storms.



crsutton -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 3:03:18 AM)

I spent my time (decade) on merchant ships. Quite a lot of it in the North Atlantic during the winter. dr. hal is right. Ships are very complex and there is always something breaking. Steamships especially. It is all high pressure stuff and bound to break, get fouled up, or wear out. Then you have the sea to deal with as well. Salt water, moist air and pounding waves are brutal and will cause many things to break-even in fairly normal conditions. Then there are things that go bump. Dropped cargo, snapped lines, busted chains. That will cause things to need fixing as well. That is what we did while at sea when not standing watch, repair things and some things you just had to wait until you got to port.

I was day man on a boom type freighter running down the coast of South American. We usually had a short run to the next port and the custom was to keep the interior hatches on the middle decks open unless heavy seas were expected. I made the mistake of not securing a forklift in the upper hold and we hit some swells that night while at sea. The forklift went through the hatch and down two decks, hit the double bottom and cracked the deck plate. Well, between that plate and the hull is where the fuel oil is stored. It was not a pretty picture the next morning. I would give it about 8 sys and 3 green flotation. The did not but they should have fired me..[8|]



geofflambert -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 3:10:12 AM)

I absolve you of any responsibility. I did something pretty stupid with a forklift once. But pretty stupid doesn't get you a medal. You have to go above and beyond the call of duty.



crsutton -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 3:12:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I absolve you of any responsibility. I did something pretty stupid with a forklift once. But pretty stupid doesn't get you a medal. You have to go above and beyond the call of duty.


In the wrong hands a forklift can be a very dangerous thing..[;)]



pelthunter -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 3:52:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Seas are rough, system damage is bound to happen but it's not critical, ships are just as useful with 5 points as with 0.
In reality TF38 lost 3 DDs with 800 sailors perished going through typhoon December 1944. Thankfully we have none of these in the game



Oh you mean the Halsey's Typhoon. Admiral Halsey sailed - claimedly unwittingly - his fleet straight into a Typhoon.



Dili -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 4:11:35 AM)

Yeah imagine in game you suddenly lost three destroyers, several damaged ships more than 100 aircraft lost from your CV's...



witpqs -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 4:59:35 AM)

Sounds like you guys are forgetting Halsey's second typhoon...



Yaab -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 5:02:41 AM)

Why are the winds and the waves so restless?



Barb -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 5:32:54 AM)

Ship damage from wear&tear is actually a way the game slows down the tempo of operations. Most ships usually required some days in port for regular maintenance, bringing on supplies, writing reports and primarily to rest the crew. Fatigued crew is not as effective as a rested one in all kinds of things.

US Subs usually spent about month between their patrols in port - yet in game you can have sub fixed from a 50-day long patrol in a day or two and back on patrol.
Also ships in peace-time usually underwent a big "repair" period at least once a year - to fix whatever, to clear fouled bottom, etc. In wartime this was done whenever there was time (while repairing battle damage, etc.)...



Chris21wen -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 7:14:24 AM)

I was in the RN for 14 years and I can say for a fact that a ship never leaves port without some 'system' damage. It might be VHF radio or some water valve jammed. This may only add up to 0.01% but it's still system damage. Stay at sea for three weeks and the little thing will mount up so 1% can easily be reached.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 11:56:51 AM)

It is rare for military History books to get down to the levels of a few % system damage, but read about Denmark Straits battle - PE and B swapped places because B's radar was down. This is only mentioned because it caused confusion in targeting by the RN. But this sort of thing goes on all the time, it just doesn't get written about. Only in some bizarre cross discipline 'History of Engineering' text will the author even bother to find out whether the No3 Starboard ice cream maker was functional, and what the reliability stats are for 1940's electric irons using naval power supplies! As for guns, try Prince of Wales. Admittedly she was new and not properly worked up, but she was losing main turrets left right and centre! The game is very forgiving of mechanical objects. Ever had to send a ship home due to a failed MA mount after a week at sea? Thought not. ;)



crsutton -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/3/2015 2:09:31 PM)

Not to mention the debilitating effect of combat. Even combat where you take no damage. Simply firing the main guns of a BB or CA would knock the ship silly and cause things to break. And woe, if it was not a well designed ship. After helping to sink the Bismark, HMS Rodney had to go to the US for a major refit. The concussion from her main batteries just knocked her silly. Springing hull plates among other things. Firing an 8 inch gun a couple of hundred times would cause the barrel linings to slip out of the barrel an inch or more. The USS Houston without the benefit of a refit and after firing her main guns quite a bit in action during the early months was shooting shells that tumbled in fight-according to her gunnery officer who wrote an account. Not to mention that she was one of many warships that set her own float planes on fire while shooting off her guns.




bigred -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/4/2015 2:27:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I can't substantiate that the game has weather caused damage but in reality rough weather and heavy seas do a lot. I had a TF come into port looking like it had been through a typhoon. Flotation damage on all ships. Maybe it was just a lot of collisions.

Probably set the TF to Full Speed then forgot to turn it off .



Numdydar -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/4/2015 3:03:37 PM)

A nice quick way to have the TF spend a few months in port [:)] Not that I have never done that [8D]



geofflambert -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/4/2015 7:13:30 PM)

No, I only ordered a TF to full speed once in all these years and it ran out of fuel. [8|]



Dili -> RE: Why are CVs so brittle? (10/5/2015 1:04:57 AM)

Also the ship age matters, older and gets worse, also gets slower with age. A destroyer can get 5kt less. I wonder what an Omaha or a Tenryu cruiser could do as max speed and for how long in WW2.




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