RE: Not an exploit. (Full Version)

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Seminole -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/20/2015 1:36:41 PM)

quote:

Yes the Soviets will have a large air force. It does not mean they will be able to do much with it except get shot down a lot. Their pilots will be worse than the Allied pilots and their planes will not be as good.


Looking at the small differences in morale/exp between the air forces in the Rommel Attacks scenario and how easily the LW wipes the Allies from the sky, I'll take a wait and see on this concern as well...



Seminole -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/20/2015 1:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG
Yes it is and it's silly to think that a airplane could destroy a battleship.

But its historical.


I believe that KWG was making a not so veiled reference to Billy Mitchell and his fight with the US brass in both the Army and the Navy regarding the utility of bombers.

"So a military force has no constant formation, water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius." -Sun Tzu, Art of War




KWG -> RE: Blitzkrieg (12/20/2015 1:55:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Be interesting to see what unhistorical combat ratio is spit out by the combat engine this turn from your 5 week long Cobra offensive.

and as we can see Red it has zero effect on the VP's, so what is the down side?

This is why we call it an exploit.

Nothing wrong here people move along [:-] everything is WAD.

Historical ratio 1.5 yo 1

WitW engine ratio 5 to 1 at least.




quote:

[Be interesting to see what unhistorical combat ratio is spit out by the combat engine this turn from your 5 week long Cobra offensive.


Iknew that was ready to be fired so I did my reports in a way to not show aircraft. None, that ratio was without aircraft.

Please show me where I have done even 1 day of Cobra. The use of bombers in tactical bombing is not unhistorical.

As Ive said before if I was suffering losses of 10 to 1, would that cause as much unhistorical concern? Or would it be accredited to my tactics.


Your factories and manpower have not been bombed in 4 weeks. THATS unhistorical. Should they not be suffering losses anyway?


quote:

During the period from December 7, 1942, through January 31, 1943, the 11th Panzer Division was credited with destroying 225 tanks, 347 antitank guns, 35 artillery pieces, and killing 30,700 Soviet soldiers. Balck’s losses for the same period were 16 tanks, 12 antitank guns, 215 soldiers killed in action, 1,019 wounded, and 155 missing.


Whats is that in game terms? Unhistorical?!!!



How unhistorical is a one year German sitzkrieg.

I have presented a lot of evidence most of which has gone ignored.

As I've said I am not a expert on this, or know the workings of every rule. Having served in the 508th PIR and the 2nd Armor division I would hope that I had a feel as to how things could go in a combat situation. So I play as if I was there having to make a command decision and not based on a dissection of the rulebook.


TACTICAL BOMBING

quote:

When the weather cleared on December 23, the battle began in earnest. The Germans committed over 800 fighters to support their forces and to attempt to gain local air superiority. The Allied response was overwhelming. Hundreds of fighters, fighter-bombers, and medium and heavy bombers from the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces and RAF Bomber Command filled the skies over Europe. They engaged the Germans in air-to-air combat and strafed and bombed enemy positions, troop concentrations, tanks, motored vehicles, trains, bridges, and artillery, in effect, isolating the battlefield.




KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/20/2015 1:58:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG
Yes it is and it's silly to think that a airplane could destroy a battleship.

But its historical.


I believe that KWG was making a not so veiled reference to Billy Mitchell and his fight with the US brass in both the Army and the Navy regarding the utility of bombers.

"So a military force has no constant formation, water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius." -Sun Tzu, Art of War




BOOOOOOM!


RIGHT ON TARGET.

(Seminole, I will get back to you on the Total Strategical Bombing campaign when i can.)




KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/20/2015 2:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Yes the Soviets will have a large air force. It does not mean they will be able to do much with it except get shot down a lot. Their pilots will be worse than the Allied pilots and their planes will not be as good.


Looking at the small differences in morale/exp between the air forces in the Rommel Attacks scenario and how easily the LW wipes the Allies from the sky, I'll take a wait and see on this concern as well...



Ive not really seen much, mostly none, of a Luftwaffe presences over Normandy and NONE over Italy.

Could a unhistorical change have affected the Luftwaffe?


So historically what losses should the Luftwaffe be suffering right now?



KWG -> RE: Blitzkrieg (12/20/2015 3:19:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Be interesting to see what unhistorical combat ratio is spit out by the combat engine this turn from your 5 week long Cobra offensive.

and as we can see Red it has zero effect on the VP's, so what is the down side?

This is why we call it an exploit.

Nothing wrong here people move along [:-] everything is WAD.

Historical ratio 1.5 yo 1

WitW engine ratio 5 to 1 at least.



NO. KWG engine ratio 5 to 1 at least.


From the beginning of the game to my invasion of France the loss ratio was against me. why??????????



Ralzakark -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/21/2015 1:50:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Ive not really seen much, mostly none, of a Luftwaffe presences over Normandy and NONE over Italy.

Could a unhistorical change have affected the Luftwaffe?

So historically what losses should the Luftwaffe be suffering right now?



Historically the Luftwaffe rapidly transferred aircraft to fight over Normandy - by the end of the first week they had some 1,000 aircraft of all types there.

The close support effort on 8 June alone peaked at over 500 sorties with over 200 by the bomber force the previous night. Mining sorties ran at some 60-70 almost every night for six weeks, generating some 1,500 - 2,000 sorties total.

Losses were severe. In the first week of operations Luftflotte 3 lost 362 aircraft, in the second another 232. The increasing oil shortage also meant that in July the heavier anti-shipping aircraft such as He 177s and Fw 200s started to be pulled back to Germany.

The Allies invested considerable effort in gaining and maintaining air superiority. If a German player does not use the Luftwaffe to contest the Allies' landings then there should be plenty of extra capacity available for interdiction and ground support which, historically, was flying escort, patrolling or striking Luftwaffe airfields, etc.





KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/21/2015 4:23:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Ive not really seen much, mostly none, of a Luftwaffe presences over Normandy and NONE over Italy.

Could a unhistorical change have affected the Luftwaffe?

So historically what losses should the Luftwaffe be suffering right now?



Historically the Luftwaffe rapidly transferred aircraft to fight over Normandy - by the end of the first week they had some 1,000 aircraft of all types there.

The close support effort on 8 June alone peaked at over 500 sorties with over 200 by the bomber force the previous night. Mining sorties ran at some 60-70 almost every night for six weeks, generating some 1,500 - 2,000 sorties total.

Losses were severe. In the first week of operations Luftflotte 3 lost 362 aircraft, in the second another 232. The increasing oil shortage also meant that in July the heavier anti-shipping aircraft such as He 177s and Fw 200s started to be pulled back to Germany.

The Allies invested considerable effort in gaining and maintaining air superiority. If a German player does not use the Luftwaffe to contest the Allies' landings then there should be plenty of extra capacity available for interdiction and ground support which, historically, was flying escort, patrolling or striking Luftwaffe airfields, etc.






There has been some recon in France and Italy. Some small attacks at cities that hit my ports in France, mainly the skys are mine.
I would gamble that much the Luftwaffe has been "unhistorically"[:)] disbanded to save fuel for the Panzers.

OR maybe be saved for one big close support mission!



KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/21/2015 4:28:08 PM)

Now to the most important decision of this turn.

What to do with the 3 Armor divisions and 10 miles of gain ground?


Lets look at the German forces, they are not to be underestimated. Even though the combat value of my 1 hex in equal to the to the Germans 5 hexs at 1-1, that canbe misleading.

As the manual states about Combat values :

Accurate combat values (Cv) may not be displayed even at the highest detection level, unlike fixed combat factors that are found in other games,
the Cv in Gary Grigsby’s war in the west is a calculated value that can only provide players an idea of the combat ability of the units.

The Cv is representative of the ability to take or hold territory, often referred to as “boots on the ground.


So its telling me I have a good force to hold ground and the Germans have a equally good force to take ground. At a 1 to 1 ratio.


I lack Infantry and Iam out numbered in Infantry.
Germans will have units that will have a higher rate of fire
Germans have better armor, at maybe the same or close to numbers of the Allies.
I have a 1000 aircraft on ground support call, buts its bad weather for the bombing and strafing or I might have no planes flying.
At some point in the battle the Germans may start to get a advantage in rate of effective fire that will start to turn the tide of the batttle to their favor.


Plus what the forces are NOW may not be what they are NEXT turn. As shown by the arrows the Germans can shift their forces to build up the attack hexs and they can move many units into reserve mode. Even though there is a penality for the firing effect of large attacking forces, there will still be a good amount of attacking units getting shots in.



And the most important factor is that by pulling back, "Reloading The Bolt", the overall power of my forces is greatly increased, when compared to holding the hex. Plus I moved many units into Normandy this turn. The Germans will have to leave their entrenchments to take 1 hex.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/0BACF90DCC3D48948833861D49E54B80.jpg[/image]



KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/21/2015 9:42:55 PM)

THE FORECAST FOR FRANCE NEXT WEEK CALLS FOR ALUMINUM OVERCAST WITH HEAVY THUNDER AND LIGHTNING.


[image]local://upfiles/43155/5BC0A00E51AA4BF9B59E34708F52BBF8.jpg[/image]







Ive just given the week off to the crews of over 6,000 aircraft in England. So they have been resting, hitting the pubs and next week they will be ready to kill some Nazzees.

It takes a whole lot of sorties to do what Iam doing. And it could even be argued that I should be doing more damage.

So there will be around 9,000 aircraft flying missions out of England next week. New airframes being flown.
The most destructive force on the planet will fill the skys of France.


The Germans can stay in close to Allied forces, holding territory and VPs with both hands as Allied forces mass on the ground as well as the in the air.
The Allies have even given the Germans some of Europe back.
So when the Germans call the tune remember....


Its... territory and VPs... OR ...it's troops and equipment....




Two weaknesses of the Allies are:
1-Weak, poor planned invasion.
2- ?

/////
///


German factories/manpower have not been bombed in.... what ... 5 weeks?

Where is all that production/manpower going?
I would say .... the majority of the benefit is going to the Russian Front... maybe?
Which is off in this campaign, and out of the reach of the German's Western Marshal.
It would be nice if someone with the intricacies of this aspect could chime in.


[:)]this is a VERY challenging campaign!




Peltonx -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/23/2015 6:25:22 PM)

Turn 53 VP: 21 Manpower Pool: 48,000 Arm Pts: 1,917,000
WA Loses: 288,000 8,000
GHC Loses: 383,000 21,000

Most of the loses done by bombing.

Normandy loses another hex and 2 more panzer divisions arrive this
turn and are railed in near Paris to be held in reserve with the other 2 panzer divisions.

This reserve is for the next invasion.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/B27050D23AAC48D5896FA6F9FAEC0A3F.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/23/2015 6:26:01 PM)

Italy: massive tactical bombing of 2 hexes keeps the snakeblitz moving along a 10 mile wide push up the valley.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/413FB9D0D87E4AE39AB429A2630C8983.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/23/2015 6:31:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG
Yes it is and it's silly to think that a airplane could destroy a battleship.

But its historical.



"So a military force has no constant formation, water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius." -Sun Tzu, Art of War




1. Blitz-works vs less exp Russia players
2. Industry rush works vs average players
3. Grinding works vs more exp players.

Its a large tool kit done it all.

Only loss in WitW was vs a tactic that's been patched out.

You start out with what works quickly, then change it up.

Germany can only take what it is given and as Germany defending its all about hexes to Berlin. There is only so much you can do in the air game/con repair.

On the ground its all the same as the engine is the engine/ratio is the ratio.

19 games in WitW so I have seen allot of the possible tricks-this is just another new one.



Peltonx -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/23/2015 6:36:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Now to the most important decision of this turn.

What to do with the 3 Armor divisions and 10 miles of gain ground?


Lets look at the German forces, they are not to be underestimated. Even though the combat value of my 1 hex in equal to the to the Germans 5 hexs at 1-1, that canbe misleading.

As the manual states about Combat values :

Accurate combat values (Cv) may not be displayed even at the highest detection level, unlike fixed combat factors that are found in other games,
the Cv in Gary Grigsby’s war in the west is a calculated value that can only provide players an idea of the combat ability of the units.

The Cv is representative of the ability to take or hold territory, often referred to as “boots on the ground.


So its telling me I have a good force to hold ground and the Germans have a equally good force to take ground. At a 1 to 1 ratio.


I lack Infantry and Iam out numbered in Infantry.
Germans will have units that will have a higher rate of fire
Germans have better armor, at maybe the same or close to numbers of the Allies.
I have a 1000 aircraft on ground support call, buts its bad weather for the bombing and strafing or I might have no planes flying.
At some point in the battle the Germans may start to get a advantage in rate of effective fire that will start to turn the tide of the batttle to their favor.


Plus what the forces are NOW may not be what they are NEXT turn. As shown by the arrows the Germans can shift their forces to build up the attack hexs and they can move many units into reserve mode. Even though there is a penality for the firing effect of large attacking forces, there will still be a good amount of attacking units getting shots in.



And the most important factor is that by pulling back, "Reloading The Bolt", the overall power of my forces is greatly increased, when compared to holding the hex. Plus I moved many units into Normandy this turn. The Germans will have to leave their entrenchments to take 1 hex.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/0BACF90DCC3D48948833861D49E54B80.jpg[/image]


Plus there are 32x multipers for attacker an 16x for defender

so what could be a 5 cv stack can be a 80 cv stack or a 1 cv same for attacker.

WitW has allot more "stable" and you don't get the insane swings that can be command in WitE.

But they happen



Harrybanana -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/23/2015 10:12:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Germany can only take what it is given and as Germany defending its all about hexes to Berlin.




This is true in WitE and perhaps in a very few WitW games; but I believe in the vast majority of WitW games between roughly equal opponents and playing with EF Off the Allies will not get anywhere near Berlin. If I am wrong show me the recent AARs where this has happened. I'm not saying the German Player can totally rule this out; but I am saying that if you want to win the Game (as opposed to the War) as the Germans you need to focus less on holding Berlin and more on ways to increase the negative VPs and decrease the positive ones. Encouraging the Allies to use his Strategic bombers to break your lines rather than bombing for positive VPs or bombing your VWpn sites and factories to avoid negative VPs is one way to do this. Another is to inflict 8000 casualties per turn, regardless of your casualties. Assuming half of these are American and half are Other, that is -10 VPs per turn.

Personally I am more interested (at least as the Allies) in winning the War than I am the Game, but each to his own.



KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/25/2015 8:52:37 PM)

Merry Christmas All !!!

week53

I could finish my turn tonight but its been storming here and the internet has been off and on.
A tornado hit north of here the other night and another one took out a post office 2 towns over.

Its been exciting especially in Italy. lots of battles. Iam at the outskirts of Rome. Its been very fun this turn.

Be glad when this weather system pushes thru.



Peltonx -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/26/2015 1:13:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Germany can only take what it is given and as Germany defending its all about hexes to Berlin.




This is true in WitE and perhaps in a very few WitW games; but I believe in the vast majority of WitW games between roughly equal opponents and playing with EF Off the Allies will not get anywhere near Berlin. If I am wrong show me the recent AARs where this has happened. I'm not saying the German Player can totally rule this out; but I am saying that if you want to win the Game (as opposed to the War) as the Germans you need to focus less on holding Berlin and more on ways to increase the negative VPs and decrease the positive ones. Encouraging the Allies to use his Strategic bombers to break your lines rather than bombing for positive VPs or bombing your VWpn sites and factories to avoid negative VPs is one way to do this. Another is to inflict 8000 casualties per turn, regardless of your casualties. Assuming half of these are American and half are Other, that is -10 VPs per turn.

Personally I am more interested (at least as the Allies) in winning the War than I am the Game, but each to his own.


Attacking for VP's is done once allies get away from the beaches, England and closer to Germany.

Once you pile up the pools and have stabilized the lines (after Normandy) sure then you can hammer a way with no negative to the end game.

Winning the war simply is not possible so its really not an option playing Germany. Germany can win the war playing WitE but not WitW.

So your only reason for playing is winning the VP count and tring to do better then historical.



KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/26/2015 2:38:52 PM)

1 July 1944

BATTLES RAGE IN NORMANDY


The Allies continue to battle the Germans in the hedgerows of Normandy. Even with the Air Forces helping the
ground losses are still high.

The left wing of the German Defense is weaken. With such a strong defense in Normandy how will the Germans deal with
a timely 2nd invasion of Europe.


The drop in engineers after the first battle was a big factor in the next battles.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/D27FDC6CE8FD4C7FB6ADD321C7DEB412.jpg[/image]



KWG -> RE: Not an exploit. (12/26/2015 2:59:13 PM)

APPIAN WAY... BATTLE FOR ROME... ALLIED PARATROOPERS NORTH OF ROME

WOLF LINKS UP WITH TIGER

8th Army opens corridor to the Appian Beachhead.

Monty tells the troops "TO ROMA!!"


{ It was time to get wild and woolly and more such missions are planned! }


Germans pull back their line in east Italy allowing Allies to free up several divisions.

Allies fight to the outskirts of Rome.


Airborne drop goes off it's planned dropzone.... CAUSE CHAOS still the order of the day.

The Paras and the lone Armor division should keep the Germans busy until the Allies go on the offense again.

German units surrounded in the mountains

Massives Allied forces waiting to hit the German lines, reinforcements arrive.

The current question at Bletchley Park is "Will Pelton take the Pope hostage?"


[image]local://upfiles/43155/5CF16055C2324CFFA8F3B7D8C0CA1FBA.jpg[/image]



KWG -> Germans Retreating.... (12/26/2015 11:19:01 PM)

ITALY.... GERMANS IN FULL RETREAT...


July 8, 1944 week54


Across Italy German Forces retreat north. Germans decide to fight in the ancient city of Rome.

Paratroopers of the 507th and 517th fight till the end keeping the Germans busy as Allied troops advance toward Rome.

There was high interdiction from Allied aircraft north of Rome.

I see a opportunity here to do some REAL Blitzkrieging and annihilate a good portion of the German forces in lower Italy.

I will let the Gurkhas take care of the Germans surrounded in the mountains.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/17267063512C481097A09E3D0F95C325.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 20 (12/26/2015 11:41:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

To make it official and on the books:

Victory Points = VPs showing - 36. (36 if 0; 37 if -1)

Correct?


Was only 32

So -9 + -32 = -41



Peltonx -> RE: Germans Retreating.... (12/26/2015 11:47:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

ITALY.... GERMANS IN FULL RETREAT...


July 8, 1944 week54


Across Italy German Forces retreat north. Germans decide to fight in the ancient city of Rome.

Paratroopers of the 507th and 517th fight till the end keeping the Germans busy as Allied troops advance toward Rome.

There was high interdiction from Allied aircraft north of Rome.

I see a opportunity here to do some REAL Blitzkrieging and annihilate a good portion of the German forces in lower Italy.

I will let the Gurkhas take care of the Germans surrounded in the mountains.




Looks good on paper, but that's about all that is in those divisions.

Kinda reminds me of Hitler in April of 45 moving around divisions that only had a few 100 men in them heheh.





KWG -> RE: Germans Retreating.... (12/27/2015 5:13:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

ITALY.... GERMANS IN FULL RETREAT...


July 8, 1944 week54


Across Italy German Forces retreat north. Germans decide to fight in the ancient city of Rome.

Paratroopers of the 507th and 517th fight till the end keeping the Germans busy as Allied troops advance toward Rome.

There was high interdiction from Allied aircraft north of Rome.

I see a opportunity here to do some REAL Blitzkrieging and annihilate a good portion of the German forces in lower Italy.

I will let the Gurkhas take care of the Germans surrounded in the mountains.




Looks good on paper, but that's about all that is in those divisions.

Kinda reminds me of Hitler in April of 45 moving around divisions that only had a few 100 men in them heheh.






Those weak troops north of Rome are just in the way of destroying the troops I want to.
Dropping TOE as a way to move troops/equipment?



Peltonx -> RE: Germans Retreating.... (12/27/2015 11:12:10 AM)

Lower ToE does require less fuel = more MP's

Its a WitE work around and works with this logistics system also-which means it will work with WitE 2.0




KWG -> RE: Germans Retreating.... (12/28/2015 4:36:39 PM)

Allies advance north of Rome


8th and 5th Armies move to surround Rome and to keep the Germans from stabilizing the front line.

Scottish soldiers mingling with the locals.



[image]local://upfiles/43155/41CFF77689024B1B85E382A2E1FBC1E2.jpg[/image]



KWG -> RE: Germans Retreating.... (12/28/2015 7:46:34 PM)

July 8 1944

Allies gain 30 miles in Normandy. 20 along west coast and 10 that carries them to the outskirts of Caen.


In Normandy large numbers of reinforcements await their chance at combat. We have good flanking across the entire front line.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/3D98DAD876184354A34DF3289C0A29EC.jpg[/image]



KWG -> ROME FALLS!!! (12/29/2015 5:58:19 PM)

ROME FALLS TO ALLIES


8TH AND 5TH Armies enter Rome and pursue retreating Germans.

Allied HQs are hush-hush on the going-ons. The press is restricted to Rome and south there of.

Top Allies commanders, in Italy, nowhere to be seen.









[image]local://upfiles/43155/39187F9F4C3341BC8D90B45994DA55EA.jpg[/image]



KWG -> RE: ROME FALLS!!! (12/30/2015 12:26:50 AM)

July 15 1944

Normandy, the battle of the hedgerows continues.

Allies liberated the towns of St. Lo and Coutances.


American troops drive thru the ruins of St. Lo.

[image]local://upfiles/43155/AB256974EFC8477382E76E1703CB556C.jpg[/image]



KWG -> Patton slaps Herman (12/30/2015 4:21:21 PM)

PATTON SLAPS ASIDE THE HERMANN GOERING PANZER DIVISION



Allied troops fight from hedgerow to hedgerow pushing back the Germans to capture the town of Vire.


The German resistance was centered around the Hermann Goering Panzer Division, old foes from Sicily and Italy.








[image]local://upfiles/43155/75719AFD8DB24B39B173BF31A224EB28.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: Patton slaps Herman (12/30/2015 5:23:56 PM)

well done in Italy - looks like you have more prisoners to collect from the coast? And a well managed offensive in Normandy



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