RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/1/2016 11:12:15 PM)

Turn 13 GHC Armaments: 135,000 Manpower: 82,000 Germany: 1383 Russia: 625 Ratio: 2.2 Major German Victory

Armament Pts. Destroyed = 66 (43 locked down)
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 22 (19)
Factories:
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
AP total:

Stavka OOB: 4,616,000 +56,000
GHC OOB: 3,390,000 +36,000

Stavka Loses: 1,816,000 86,000
GHC Loses: 237,000 22,000

AGN preps to take the port. OKH stops sending replacements to AGN.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/7FE3C07CC12347B3AD33F80C954218BB.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/1/2016 11:12:57 PM)

AGC crosses the river north of Moscow and more panzers arrive and start prepping for the last push on Moscow.
OKH starts sending replacements to AGC.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/7555819D90CA4FADA854FA76CCE46F54.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/1/2016 11:13:31 PM)

AGS heads for Rostov, while 48th PC does a HQBU. 48th is being head back as a relief force in case of a large counter attack by Stavka. GHC starts sending replacements to AGS.
Fuel drops are also made to the 2 lead Corp HQ’s. Stavka pushes back some panzers and evacs 18 arm pts from Stalino.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/946CC0538B9F4717B12E110AC373A702.jpg[/image]



VigaBrand -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 6:18:22 AM)

Okay, I our game should be over. There is no need to waste someones time.
You will take Leningrad, Stalin and moskow and I was able to manage a big pocket for you.
So I lost both, the manpower and the industry and we could finished that.



loki100 -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 7:43:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

Okay, I our game should be over. There is no need to waste someones time.
You will take Leningrad, Stalin and moskow and I was able to manage a big pocket for you.
So I lost both, the manpower and the industry and we could finished that.


thats a pity, why do you think it went so badly wrong? Looking at the map I think you put too much into Leningrad and over defended Odessa, that probably took away about 3 armies that might have been better somewhere else?



VigaBrand -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 8:16:19 AM)

I lost two armies in the South in turn 3.
And Pelton could manage to attack with his tank and motorised forces over the 25 Hex supply line.
I think the game was over after turn 3, because the two armies will create a snowball effect on the early game which aren't reparable against such a skilled player like Pelton is.
I now lost many units.

[image]local://upfiles/50702/41D497C488444E37B326D5D12922CC7D.jpg[/image]



VigaBrand -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 8:18:01 AM)

In the South Stalino with industry and more troops are lost.


[image]local://upfiles/50702/5BF0C2EC2E3F4FCE93AE1D38023ECAF0.jpg[/image]



VigaBrand -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 8:21:45 AM)

And Moscow should be lost, too. He passed the last river line in the South and in the North and so it will be lost. We are in turn 14 (soviet) and so he had 15, 16 and 17 left plus some turns after the mud. All industry is in Moscow and so I will lost that.

In Leningrad I lost the harbor, so these divisions and the industry is lost, too.
So in the end I lost army and industry before the winter and that is to much.


[image]local://upfiles/50702/EBA9BB3EF29D473DBE537EFE88C91195.jpg[/image]



VigaBrand -> RE: T-12 at the Gates of Moscow/Stalino (1/2/2016 8:30:29 AM)

Industry want I had at the end.
I will loss 15 vehicle, 45 Armament and 29 HI plus all the special factories in Moscow.
The special factories and the lossing so many troops will now hurt.
I will have problems in rebuilding because of the low industry, I never will inflict enough losses in the winter (low army) and in 1942 I should held?
Will be very hard, so I offer to resign the game. If Pelton wants, I will continue as he chooses bitter end szenario.


[image]local://upfiles/50702/92DA4A3959E0447E842F15850DFFB35F.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> Thanks for GG (1/2/2016 6:20:55 PM)

Thanks for the game.

I think there were areas that cost the game for you.

1. To many troops defending Leningrad and not enough in front of Moscow.
2. The large pocket turn 3, as this did cause a snowball as you stated.

I was able to packman allot of small 1-4 units pocket per turn because of the above.

Thanks again for the game.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/986BDE85FBA84728AA8533D990A52BD1.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Thanks for GG (1/2/2016 6:40:43 PM)

So VigaBrand, what did you learn by playing Pelton? Saying he is a good player doesn't count, you knew that going in.



VigaBrand -> RE: Thanks for GG (1/2/2016 7:00:05 PM)

- Moscow is in danger in 1941.
- don't fight in the first turns near the border, you couldn't win that.
- focus on one or two targets
- sacrifice some troops for time
- don't think some cities are save only because there are 30 hex distant from a german railhead
- garrison your cities with infantery
- rethink Leningrad and how to defend that city.








Peltonx -> RE: Thanks for GG (1/2/2016 7:12:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

- Moscow is in danger in 1941.
- don't fight in the first turns near the border, you couldn't win that.
- focus on one or two targets
- sacrifice some troops for time
- don't think some cities are save only because there are 30 hex distant from a german railhead
- garrison your cities with infantery
- rethink Leningrad and how to defend that city.








You be much harder to play in our next game, I learnt more from my 4 loses then all the wins put together.



VigaBrand -> RE: Thanks for GG (1/2/2016 7:37:27 PM)

I learn much about HQBU. Because Pelton used it often, I test and analyse this. In all my games before, I don't used it. Now I used it and thanks to Pelton, I think I get some understanding for the right timing and use. [&o]
So the game help me for both sides.

@Pelton: You could learn from your wins, too. You had to reflect your doing and think about the objectiv situation and not only, that you win because of the mistakes from your opponent.
The problem is, you must forces yourself to see mistakes. In your wins the mistakes was overwrite by the mistakes of your opponents, so you didn't had to deal with them. In your losses you must deal with them.
It is like a chess game. You show that game some of your friends and if you win, you will underestimate all critics of you play because you win. What did they want?

It is like in history. After 1943 you could read much about soviet operations (they win in this span) but who knows "operation mars"? Who knows about the failed first invasion of Romania?

In your AARs you mostly write about your success and not about your failed operations.



VigaBrand -> RE: Thanks for GG (1/4/2016 5:04:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

So VigaBrand, what did you learn by playing Pelton? Saying he is a good player doesn't count, you knew that going in.

In Detail:
My Ungeny-Approach was a mistake. I assume, that there will be a non-visible limit with 25 Hexes from a railhead distance (no supplies delivery there). So I want to hold this start of the romania rail repair route as long as possible and was willing to sacrifice some troops for that target. That doesn't work because of HBQU and air supply.
In the end I lost these 25 divisions in the South at the start of the game. These units will delay the germans more if I place them behind the dnjpre. So the SOUTH eating up my reserves.
Odessa:
Works well. I create some guard units and there where three german infantery divisions under Model which attacked the fortified positions there multiple times with a victory at the end. I lost there one rifle division after odessa was captured and some combat casualties.
Leningrad:
Must rethink about the 7th army fighting the finns. At this stadium these units could help me elsewhere better.
Defend Leningrad is fine, because your central advance had only two panzercorps then with the rest of your mobile formations are in the North. At the end, to many formations are in Leningrad which will only increase my casualties.



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