Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (Full Version)

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Admiral Delabroglio -> Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/2/2016 8:47:50 PM)

A few months ago, I had an idea to make the CW's life miserable as Germany, if playing with oil rules. In the second Axis impulse of S/O 1939, declare war on Venezuela with Germany.
Venezuela MUST align with the USA.
And it stops providing the CW with 3 oil points per turn. The USA get all the Venezuela oil and waste it in stupid car races.

The USA will probably choose "resources to Western Allies" 1 turn earlier, but it has a minimal impact on the game, as the USA should lend lease 5 oil resources per turn to the CW, so the CW is still 3 oil points short. So basically, the CW looses 3 oil resources per turn until the USA are at war, so maybe for 2 and a half years.

Has anybody tried it ? It seems gamey to me, so perhaps Harry should change the rules so that Venezuela keeps providing the CW with 3 oil resources even if aligned to the USA unless the USA are active.

Best regards



Joseignacio -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 7:04:17 AM)

It's legal and a little gamey but for me it's ethically valid. Never thought about that, because I didn't know they need to ally to USE, do they?

And the downside is the possibility of lose of American entry chit. Although it's not so much, it's not for free.



Centuur -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 2:56:05 PM)

Another thing which makes WiF such a great game. The price can be pretty high with a possibility of two entry chits getting drawn by the US. That doesn't only mean that the US will choose resources to Wallies faster, but the gear up also appears sooner. That will mean extra build points for the Hulk (that's what we called the big green monster...).






hazmaxed -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 4:20:29 PM)

I'm somewhat unfamiliar with the rules on aligning minors that have have had war declared on them.  Why must Venezuela align with the USA?  If the USA says "no" to the alignment, doesn't one of the other major powers get a chance to align Venezuela?



ParJ -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 5:19:33 PM)

I think the rule says that countries on the Americas map have to align with the US. But the US should have the choice to not accept taking control and Venezuela will be conquered by the Germans instead.

Think the UK should be able to grab the oil in an empty minor, but it might be possible for the Germans to send a white print INF on a transport to protect it.

Par



Centuur -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 5:21:23 PM)

Here is RAW:

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the
American map, it may only align with the USA.



hazmaxed -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/3/2016 5:51:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oto02

I think the rule says that countries on the Americas map have to align with the US. But the US should have the choice to not accept taking control and Venezuela will be conquered by the Germans instead.

Think the UK should be able to grab the oil in an empty minor, but it might be possible for the Germans to send a white print INF on a transport to protect it.

Par


Ah, yes. RAC 19.2, in part: "If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country in the Americas, it may only align with the USA."

Edit: I guess we were "rule searching' at the same time, Centuur.



paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/4/2016 5:38:31 PM)

Let the Germans DoW. If they give the US a chit then consider how much closer the US is to Lending to Western Allies (well... consider how close they are anyway). The closer they are, the more they should ignore the Axis and align Venezuela and just lend the oil to the CW. If US Entry looks bad, surrender Venezuela. A CW 1-4 Infantry can be transported to Trinidad and will be in Caracas with two land moves in successive turns or three land moves in the same turn.

Yes if the Germans are in position to get a white print Inf or even a div on an SCS there, then aligning it is a better choice. Of course whatever lift the Axis uses is probably never going to see the homeland ever again.

A much better Axis tactic is to DoW with Japan, actually. Then there's no choice left for the Allies but to have the US align it, and no potential loss of lift for the Axis.



Admiral Delabroglio -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/4/2016 8:19:07 PM)

I see. I forgot the Allies could choose not to align Venezuela to the US, surrender it and liberate it with a CW unit, getting the CW 6 instead of 3 oils. Bad move fo the Axis. Getting a unit there would require Germany to choose a combined impulse, risk a long range (5 range from Kiel) ship through the CW fleets. The CW could attack from British Guyana or from Trinidad.

Now, if Japan should declare war on Venezuela... Paulderynck, I see there's one out there quite a bit more devious than I am, and also quite a bit more clever.

Best regards



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/4/2016 11:08:16 PM)

[:)] Defiantly worth the 1 chit an possible 20% of another chit. [:)]

The USA is an inactive major power and can only save 1 oil per turn.

Therefor the USA can't save it, put it into production, or trade the oil. And the CW is minus 3 oil.




paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 3:36:42 AM)

Right and if Japan does it, any chits generated are only 50% effective towards passing Lend to Western Allies.



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 3:04:58 PM)

While I agree with Paul that the Japanese player should probably make a DoW (Declaration of War) on Venezuela.

He may or may not be correct in it being only 50% effective towards passing Lend to Western Allies.

This is because the US entry level must be 27 in both the US entry level (Ge/It) and US entry level (Jp) to choose the US entry option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiWFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
Example: The US entry level against Japan is 23 and against Germany/Italy is 25. The US cannot repair Western Allies ships as Jay doesn’t have an entry level of 25 against all three Axis major powers.



CALCULATING THE ENTRY LEVELS
There are 2 US entry pools and 2 US tension pools - a Japan version, and a Germany/Italy version, of each.

(US entry pool (Ge/It) x 1.5) + (USA entry pool (Jp) x 0.5) = US entry level (Ge/it).

(US entry pool (Jp) x 1.5) + (USA entry pool (Ge/It) x 0.5) = US entry level (Jp).


BREAKING DOWN US ENTRY OPTIONS
The US entry options chart lists political choices available to you. Each option is targeted against Japan (Ja), Germany/Italy (Ge/It), or all three (if neither is specified).

The US entry option reads: 27 Lend Lease to western Allies (Ge/It) (9) * pre-requisite required.


27 - US entry level required. If you want to choose an entry option, you must be at a high enough entry level to pick it. The entry level is marked on the left hand side of the entry options.

Lend Lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see "13.6.4 Lend Lease") to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany).
You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option "15. Resources to western Allies" US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

(Ge/It) - If the action has “(Ge/It)” after it, place or remove the marker into/from the German/Italian entry pool. If the action has “(Ja)” after it, place or remove the marker into/from the Japanese entry pool. In all other cases,
the US player can choose either entry pool.

(9) - Die roll or less required to move a chit from the US (Ge/It) entry pool to the US (Ge/It) tension pool.


* pre-requisite required - Where an option requires a pre-requisite option to be picked first, it must have been picked in a prior turn.



SUMMARY

You must have at least a US entry level of 27 in both the US entry level (Ge/It) and US entry level (Jp) and previously chosen "15. Resources to western Allies" to be able to choose "Lend Lease to western Allies".





AlbertN -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 4:04:06 PM)

I personally feel the option to DoW a nation you cannot legitimately reach just for "game mechanics allowing it" being silly if not an exploit of the rules themselves.

Like the tactic of W.Allies to DoW Bulgaria, Rumania and Hungary to give more resources to the Soviets suddenly (a strategy usually done to sink the US down to 0 to not be able to DoW to EU-Axis), and deny lots of BPs to the Axis (Just think of units coming forth in 1940 and future - that including like Antonescu HQ which by itself is 5 BPs, much more than what the Bucarest factory would churn out at 0.75 multiplier).



Numdydar -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 5:48:14 PM)

I agree. I do like the freedom to do things different but within historical constraints. There is no way any Axis power was going to DoW on anyone in the Western hemisphere as that should always result in a DoW on them by the US. Monroe Doctrine anyone?

Also, in real life the country in question would have completely ignored the DoW as they knew there would be no one actually invading them. So they would have continued to ship oil to the UK. DoW or not.

So these kinds of activities, like a DoW on Persia by the USSR just seem like exploits of the game system. I realize it can make the game more 'fun'. But if you go too far off the path you might as well be playing Age of Wonder or Heroes versus a WWII game. Just my two cents worth anyway [:)]



paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 6:32:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

While I agree with Paul that the Japanese player should probably make a DoW (Declaration of War) on Venezuela.

He may or may not be correct in it being only 50% effective towards passing Lend to Western Allies.

This is because the US entry level must be 27 in both the US entry level (Ge/It) and US entry level (Jp) to choose the US entry option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiWFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
Example: The US entry level against Japan is 23 and against Germany/Italy is 25. The US cannot repair Western Allies ships as Jay doesn’t have an entry level of 25 against all three Axis major powers.


CALCULATING THE ENTRY LEVELS
There are 2 US entry pools and 2 US tension pools - a Japan version, and a Germany/Italy version, of each.

(US entry pool (Ge/It) x 1.5) + (USA entry pool (Jp) x 0.5) = US entry level (Ge/it).

(US entry pool (Jp) x 1.5) + (USA entry pool (Ge/It) x 0.5) = US entry level (Jp).

BREAKING DOWN US ENTRY OPTIONS
The US entry options chart lists political choices available to you. Each option is targeted against Japan (Ja), Germany/Italy (Ge/It), or all three (if neither is specified).

The US entry option reads: 27 Lend Lease to western Allies (Ge/It) (9) * pre-requisite required.

27 - US entry level required. If you want to choose an entry option, you must be at a high enough entry level to pick it. The entry level is marked on the left hand side of the entry options.

Lend Lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see "13.6.4 Lend Lease") to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany).
You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option "15. Resources to western Allies" US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

(Ge/It) - If the action has “(Ge/It)” after it, place or remove the marker into/from the German/Italian entry pool. If the action has “(Ja)” after it, place or remove the marker into/from the Japanese entry pool. In all other cases,
the US player can choose either entry pool.

(9) - Die roll or less required to move a chit from the US (Ge/It) entry pool to the US (Ge/It) tension pool.

* pre-requisite required - Where an option requires a pre-requisite option to be picked first, it must have been picked in a prior turn.

SUMMARY

You must have at least a US entry level of 27 in both the US entry level (Ge/It) and US entry level (Jp) and previously chosen "15. Resources to western Allies" to be able to choose "Lend Lease to western Allies".


That's all true, but the effectiveness of this ploy is based entirely on how soon US Entry Option 15 can be passed and chits on the Japan side are only worth 50% toward that objective as chits on the Ge/It side. (And one third as much as if the same chits were drawn when the Germans did the DoW).

The average impact is a value of 1.4 towards actions against Ge/It, but there's a great deal of standard deviation. In MWiF you could roll a one or two and draw two zeroes - or you could draw two fives (due to the infinite chit availability as opposed to finite chit availability design decision). Not likely, but possible.



alexvand -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 8:41:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I agree. I do like the freedom to do things different but within historical constraints. There is no way any Axis power was going to DoW on anyone in the Western hemisphere as that should always result in a DoW on them by the US. Monroe Doctrine anyone?

Also, in real life the country in question would have completely ignored the DoW as they knew there would be no one actually invading them. So they would have continued to ship oil to the UK. DoW or not.

So these kinds of activities, like a DoW on Persia by the USSR just seem like exploits of the game system. I realize it can make the game more 'fun'. But if you go too far off the path you might as well be playing Age of Wonder or Heroes versus a WWII game. Just my two cents worth anyway [:)]


I agree with your points, except the comment about Persia. Historically the Soviets and British did attack Persia. So it's not an exploit at all. Take a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran





paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/5/2016 8:54:45 PM)

Yup it is an exploit. You have a complicated game that was designed with generalized rules that are supposed to work all the way from Days of Decision through Patton in Flames and on into America in Flames.

For the most part those rules do work. Every now and again some brilliant gamer finds an exploit like this one, or the "No USA in Europe/Pacific" gambits. Usually the rules catch up and fix those things but at the same time they reduce strategic options (witness your disagreement on Persia) and may even have unexpected consequences that result in an even worse exploit. The designer detests specific rules for specific countries/situations, although obviously has had to provide many such rules.

Taken to the limit, you don't have a game anymore, you have a simulation of WWII in which only masochists would want to play the Axis and the end result is always preordained. Doesn't sound like nuch of a game to me, sounds really boring, actually.

Edit: There's lots of options in WiF but at least it's not HOI, where you can conquer the world with Bolivia.



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/7/2016 8:23:29 PM)

Paul is correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

That's all true, but the effectiveness of this ploy is based entirely on how soon US Entry Option 15 can be passed and chits on the Japan side are only worth 50% toward that objective as chits on the Ge/It side. (And one third as much as if the same chits were drawn when the Germans did the DoW).

The average impact is a value of 1.4 towards actions against Ge/It, but there's a great deal of standard deviation. In MWiF you could roll a one or two and draw two zeroes - or you could draw two fives (due to the infinite chit availability as opposed to finite chit availability design decision). Not likely, but possible.



What does it take to negate the Japanese/Venezuela Phoney War?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
15. Resources to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 resources per turn each to the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). US convoy points can’t be used to transport these resources while the US is a neutral major power.


Since the majority of the majority of the US entry chits are going to go to the US entry pool (Ge/It) this will mean less US entry chits will go to the US entry pool (Jp).

Each US entry chit in the other pool will reduce the amount of the US entry pool by 0.5.

Example: US entry pool (Ge/It) = 10 and US entry pool (Jp) = 1

US entry pool (Ge/It) = 10 and US entry pool (Jp) = 1

(10 x 1.5) + (1 x 0.5) = 10.5 rounded up to a US entry level (Ge/It) of 11

(1 x 1.5) + (10 x 0.5) = 6.5 rounded up to a US entry level (Jp) of 7



Since you need an minimum US entry level of 15 to negate the effects of the Japanese/Venezuela Phony War that requires 8 points one US entry pool and 7 in the other.

((8 x 1.5) = 12) + ((7 x 0.5) = 3.5) = 15.5 rounded up to a US entry value of 16.

((7 x 1.5) = 10.5) + ((8 x 0.5) = 4) = 14.5 rounded up to a US entry value of 15.

Since your US entry level is the lower of the two US entry values the US entry level is 15.


This is a very important formula for new Global War players.




paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/7/2016 8:44:54 PM)

That's one way it could work, but the option to lend to the western allies is not one where you need the proscribed value in both pools (i.e. "against Ge/It and also against JP"). That is needed for several entry options of course, numbers 4, 16, 22, 25, 28, 32, 33, 34, 38, 46, 48 and 50 - all the ones not marked with either (Ja) or (Ge/It). This may not be completely apparent from the rule as written in section 13.3.2, but the example that follows it does clarify.

So to pass the entry option Resources to Western Allies, you could have 9 in the Ge/It pool and 3 in the Japan pool. You'd have (9 x 1.5) = 13.5 plus (3 x.5) = 1.5, totaling 15 against Ge/It; and you'd have (9 x .5) = 4.5 plus (3 x 1.5) = 4.5, totaling 9 against Japan.

The biggest imbalance would be 10 on the Ge/It side and zero on the Japan side which adds up to 15 against GE/It and 5 against Japan. But you could still pass US Entry Option 15.



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/10/2016 4:09:11 PM)

Paul you are of course correct.

There is a misspelling in the Rules_as_Coded.pdf: You spell the word "totaling" not "totalling".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rules_as_Coded.pdf
THE ENTRY AND TENSION POOLS
The U.S. has a Japanese entry pool and a Germany/Italy entry pool. The U.S. entry level against an Axis major power equals 1.5 times the value of the markers the U.S. player put in its entry pool, plus half the value of the markers in the other pool.

Example: The U.S. player has markers totalling 17 in the Germany/Italy entry pool and markers totalling 8 in the Japan entry pool. His entry level against Germany or Italy is (17 x 1.5) + (8 x 0.5) = 29.5, rounding to 30. His entry level against Japan is (17 x 0.5) + (8 x 1.5) = 20.5, rounding to 21.

Similarly, you have two tension pools: a Japanese tension pool and a Germany/Italy tension pool. Your tension level against a major power equals 1.5 times the value of the markers you have in its tension pool plus half the value of the markers in the other tension pool.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Rules_as_Coded.pdf
13.3.2. U.S. ENTRY OPTIONS
The U.S. entry options chart lists political choices available to you. Each option is targeted against Japan, Germany/Italy, or all three (if neither is specified). The U.S. player can review these at any time.

If you want to choose an entry option, you must be at a high enough entry level to pick it. The entry level is marked on the left hand side of the entry options. Deviation: Other players are informed how many chits were needed. The U.S. player decides exactly how many are reported if a range of possibilities exists.



warspite1 -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/10/2016 7:23:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Paul you are of course correct.

There is a misspelling in the Rules_as_Coded.pdf: You spell the word "totaling" not "totalling".

warspite1

Totalling looks good to me - and we invented the language so there [;)]





Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/10/2016 10:26:26 PM)

Does it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf from Australian Design Group

Example: Jay has markers totaling 17 in the Germany/Italy entry pool and markers totaling 8 in the Japan entry pool. Jay’s entry level against Germany or Italy is (17 x 1.5) + (8 x 0.5) = 29.5, rounding to 30. His entry level against Japan is (17 x 0.5) + (8 x 1.5) = 20.5, rounding to 21.







warspite1 -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/10/2016 10:42:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Does it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf from Australian Design Group

Example: Jay has markers totalling 17 in the Germany/Italy entry pool and markers totalling 8 in the Japan entry pool. Jay’s entry level against Germany or Italy is (17 x 1.5) + (8 x 0.5) = 29.5, rounding to 30. His entry level against Japan is (17 x 0.5) + (8 x 1.5) = 20.5, rounding to 21.





warspite1

Does it what? Look right? Yes, yes it does [;)]



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/11/2016 5:47:26 PM)

Don't bite your arm off mate.

I wasn't Au fait with having to know the Queens English here in the forums.

Horses for courses.




Barbuesque -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/11/2016 6:04:55 PM)

It's strange and gamey, but not worth the 1.2 chits imo.




warspite1 -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/11/2016 6:24:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Don't bite your arm off mate.

I wasn't Au fait with having to know the Queens English here in the forums.

Horses for courses.


warspite1

Bite your arm off?

No it was just a bit of light UK-US language ribbing. Nothing to get excited about at all....



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/16/2016 8:40:06 PM)

Do USA corps in Venezuela count toward US entry action 21?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WifChart.pdf

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
21. Allies support attacked minor (Ge/It) Requires 4+ Allied corps or armies (not units of the minor itself). Rolled once per neutral minor country. 70% chance of an US entry pool chit (Ja).




The Axis gets the chance first but what if they don't DoW Venezuela?

Is it worth 1.7 US entry chits for the CW to DoW Venezuela and get all 6 oil?


quote:

ORIGINAL: WifChart.pdf
32. Other Ally declares war on (Ge/It): Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (Rolled once per major power or neutral minor country.) -17.





Courtenay -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/16/2016 9:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Do USA corps in Venezuela count toward US entry action 21?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WifChart.pdf

13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
21. Allies support attacked minor (Ge/It) Requires 4+ Allied corps or armies (not units of the minor itself). Rolled once per neutral minor country. 70% chance of an US entry pool chit (Ja).

Remember that Allies support attacked minor must be done the same turn as the Axis declares war on the minor.

Not counting MacArthur, who is too far away, the only US corps on the map at the start of the game is Nimitz. Thus three corps would have to come from the CW and France. At the start of the game, this strikes me as a very dubious move.

quote:

The Axis gets the chance first but what if they don't DoW Venezuela?

Is it worth 1.7 US entry chits for the CW to DoW Venezuela and get all 6 oil?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WifChart.pdf
32. Other Ally declares war on (Ge/It): Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (Rolled once per major power or neutral minor country.) -17.

No.



Extraneous -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/16/2016 10:44:36 PM)

Since the US and CW don't co-operate (France and the USSR lack the TRNS) you would have to have Gort HQ (to meet Foreign troop commitments) and 2 CW corps and Nimitz HQ.

Assuming the CW has the Queens and two TRNS that can reach Venezuela.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

18.1 Who can co-operate
US and Commonwealth units co-operate provided neither is neutral.






paulderynck -> RE: Is it worth 1.2 Chits in the Ge/It entry pool ? (2/16/2016 11:05:12 PM)

While FTC would apply to entering another major power that does not cooperate with you, it does not apply to major power units entering a minor power aligned with a major power on the same side.

So it is remotely possible with the CW to provide support if Germany or Italy issue the DoW, but if Japan does the DoW, the CW would have to be willing to DOW Japan in 1939, which makes it extremely, remotely possible.



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