What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (Full Version)

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Peever -> What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:29:34 PM)

I'm trying to wrap my head around playing as Japan and am trying to consolidate some air frame building. The Japanese have four types of single engine level bombers available to build at the start of the war but should I be building any?

I know the 2E Sally has a higher service rating than 1E bombers but it can carry more and further than any of the single engines. Besides the frames there is the engine production to think about too but I'm not worried about that at the moment. I'm just looking at the stats of these single engine planes and trying to decide what if any to build.











Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:31:04 PM)

The Anne is decent. The Mary is also not bad and you have a pile of unused engines around for them.
Some of the others carry also cameras but they are to fragile and range restricted for recon uses imo.



Canoerebel -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:40:02 PM)

It would be a good thing if Japan limited itself to building a single bomber. Maybe a Sally.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:43:14 PM)

I smell the scent of ice cream machines and decadent western propaganda.



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:51:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peever

I'm trying to wrap my head around playing as Japan and am trying to consolidate some air frame building. The Japanese have four types of single engine level bombers available to build at the start of the war but should I be building any?

I know the 2E Sally has a higher service rating than 1E bombers but it can carry more and further than any of the single engines. Besides the frames there is the engine production to think about too but I'm not worried about that at the moment. I'm just looking at the stats of these single engine planes and trying to decide what if any to build.



For IJAAF don't worry about building 1E. You can use the ones you have in China, especially the Sonia, as it has the camera and carries 4 x 50kg, so gets more hits on fields, etc. It actually can be really effective there, but virtually no where else, as it'll get chewed up by flak easily.

For 2E you want the Helen ASAP as it has armor, good range, speed, and load. It is your workhorse for the entire war. So if you build one build that, but you will likely also want the Peggy as it's quick, also comes with a version that carries torpedoes, but this is late.

The rest of the 1E are usually training planes. The Anns occasionally get into ASW work. They are cheap to fly, decent load and range. I wouldn't make any though.

For the IJN of course you need the Judy line to be your primary DB. The Grace is the best strike plane in the game for any nation, hands down, so make that a priority too. It is later though.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 10:55:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peever

I'm trying to wrap my head around playing as Japan and am trying to consolidate some air frame building. The Japanese have four types of single engine level bombers available to build at the start of the war but should I be building any?

I know the 2E Sally has a higher service rating than 1E bombers but it can carry more and further than any of the single engines. Besides the frames there is the engine production to think about too but I'm not worried about that at the moment. I'm just looking at the stats of these single engine planes and trying to decide what if any to build.



For IJAAF don't worry about building 1E. You can use the ones you have in China, especially the Sonia, as it has the camera and carries 4 x 50kg, so gets more hits on fields, etc. It actually can be really effective there, but virtually no where else, as it'll get chewed up by flak easily.



I object. If you want to damage airfields/supply bomb size matters more then number of hits. Also Anne/Mary dont get a reduced load penalty for low nav/ground attacks.
I find them very usefull early one since they can also operate from level 2 airfields and have acceptable range too.
Dirt cheap also since you have engines around for both and especially the one for the Mary has no other use.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 11:02:12 PM)

Ah to make that clear for the OP, Obvert is right, they all kinda suck in the end and you want Helens asap. We just dont agree which sucks less.

You will find many different opinions on planes here, in the end the best thing is to test them in combat and see of they work for you.
For example most people here shun the Lily while I swear on it and even put some research facilities up.



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 11:07:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peever

I'm trying to wrap my head around playing as Japan and am trying to consolidate some air frame building. The Japanese have four types of single engine level bombers available to build at the start of the war but should I be building any?

I know the 2E Sally has a higher service rating than 1E bombers but it can carry more and further than any of the single engines. Besides the frames there is the engine production to think about too but I'm not worried about that at the moment. I'm just looking at the stats of these single engine planes and trying to decide what if any to build.



For IJAAF don't worry about building 1E. You can use the ones you have in China, especially the Sonia, as it has the camera and carries 4 x 50kg, so gets more hits on fields, etc. It actually can be really effective there, but virtually no where else, as it'll get chewed up by flak easily.



I object. If you want to damage airfields/supply bomb size matters more then number of hits. Also Anne/Mary dont get a reduced load penalty for low nav/ground attacks.
I find them very usefull early one since they can also operate from level 2 airfields and have acceptable range too.
Dirt cheap also since you have engines around for both and especially the one for the Mary has no other use.



Yes, a hit by a bigger bomb will cause more damage. The point of the Sonia is that you get 4x more hits! [;)]

I'd like to work it out in a H to H, because this is useful info to Japan. I do see larger damage from Sonias hitting a field than the other 1 x 250kg 1E airframes, but I haven't seen it from the other side to measure actual damage.



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 11:12:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peever

I'm trying to wrap my head around playing as Japan and am trying to consolidate some air frame building. The Japanese have four types of single engine level bombers available to build at the start of the war but should I be building any?

I know the 2E Sally has a higher service rating than 1E bombers but it can carry more and further than any of the single engines. Besides the frames there is the engine production to think about too but I'm not worried about that at the moment. I'm just looking at the stats of these single engine planes and trying to decide what if any to build.



For IJAAF don't worry about building 1E. You can use the ones you have in China, especially the Sonia, as it has the camera and carries 4 x 50kg, so gets more hits on fields, etc. It actually can be really effective there, but virtually no where else, as it'll get chewed up by flak easily.



I object. If you want to damage airfields/supply bomb size matters more then number of hits. Also Anne/Mary dont get a reduced load penalty for low nav/ground attacks.
I find them very usefull early one since they can also operate from level 2 airfields and have acceptable range too.
Dirt cheap also since you have engines around for both and especially the one for the Mary has no other use.



Yes, a hit by a bigger bomb will cause more damage. The point of the Sonia is that you get 4x more hits! [;)]

I'd like to work it out in a H to H, because this is useful info to Japan. I do see larger damage from Sonias hitting a field than the other 1 x 250kg 1E airframes, but I haven't seen it from the other side to measure actual damage.


Are you aware that we are on the verge of talking about how to more effective close Chinese airfields with Japanese 1E bombers ?
If Nemo sees this he will get a heart attack. [:D]



geofflambert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 11:48:13 PM)

If you have the engines, build something that uses them. Often you have multiple different planes to choose from, so pick the most useful one. Whatever the case (I forget what engine is involved here) any plane that can fly will make a perfectly good trainer, and you can't get too many of those.

Don't try to be too cute about it. Remember, It's not how well you mow, it's how well you mow fast.

My apologies.



rustysi -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/19/2016 11:57:08 PM)

quote:

For 2E you want the Helen ASAP as it has armor, good range, speed, and load.


While true, you may wish to wait for the second version of the Helen as the first is slightly inferior to the Sally. The only reason for its production may be that it'll eventually get radar, and could be used against subs. As for me, from what I can see I'll have plenty of air-frames that'll do that by the time radar gets of Japanese A/C. Besides in scenario 1 that plane uses the Ha-34 and I want to save those early on for my Tojo's, which use the Ha-34 as well.

As for single engine A/C I don't produce any more than I start with, as I feel I have enough for my needs. This is just MHO, YMMV.



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 12:32:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

If you have the engines, build something that uses them. Often you have multiple different planes to choose from, so pick the most useful one. Whatever the case (I forget what engine is involved here) any plane that can fly will make a perfectly good trainer, and you can't get too many of those.

Don't try to be too cute about it. Remember, It's not how well you mow, it's how well you mow fast.

My apologies.


Well, kind of ...

You still have to build the factories, which costs supply, and the airframe, which costs HI. So it's not free even if you have the engines. You don't need more 1E. There are enough for the game at start.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Are you aware that we are on the verge of talking about how to more effective close Chinese airfields with Japanese 1E bombers ?
If Nemo sees this he will get a heart attack. [:D]


Yes, but Nemo doesn't have to worry about the endgame. I do. [;)]



geofflambert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 2:58:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

If you have the engines, build something that uses them. Often you have multiple different planes to choose from, so pick the most useful one. Whatever the case (I forget what engine is involved here) any plane that can fly will make a perfectly good trainer, and you can't get too many of those.

Don't try to be too cute about it. Remember, It's not how well you mow, it's how well you mow fast.

My apologies.


Well, kind of ...


You still have to build the factories, which costs supply, and the airframe, which costs HI. So it's not free even if you have the engines. You don't need more 1E. There are enough for the game at start.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Are you aware that we are on the verge of talking about how to more effective close Chinese airfields with Japanese 1E bombers ?
If Nemo sees this he will get a heart attack. [:D]


Yes, but Nemo doesn't have to worry about the endgame. I do. [;)]


May I have a hamburger today if I pay you on Tuesday?




[image]local://upfiles/37002/2AB516E4AB08439DA1221DBA68DB2C12.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 5:33:28 AM)

Not all about damage, but disruption when hitting ground troops.

I am a Sonia fanboy, especially in PI & SRA & China. I have a thought for endgame use, but not tested yet.

Lilly IIb is a must. Must. Small runway capable.

All LB can be upgraded to FB (nicks &randy) for PP.

By the endgame Allied flak will negate most damage but not disruption.

Oscar IIb and nicks do well too, plus work from small runway.



GetAssista -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 7:32:20 PM)

With IJAAF, Ki-32 Mary is the obvious choice, useful for China, training and some ASW. It uses the obsolete engine you have some stocks of initially, and does not compete with anything else for this engine



Revthought -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 8:03:36 PM)

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 8:09:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]

Its rather easy to get the basics and you can ask all day in this forum.
Like many things you have just to start, screw up a few things and make it better next time.



geofflambert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 9:17:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]


Yes there is, I can't remember who made it but here's some other stuff he made: https://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/Home?pli=1

He doesn't sign his work. I printed my copy out but it's titled Economic Primer and it's excellent. Another must have is Hanzberger's guide to planes and engines. Couldn't do without it. Damian and Floyd are given credit for their work.



GetAssista -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 9:30:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

This thread even has that "primer" keyword, should've surfaced in whatever search.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/20/2016 9:43:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

This thread even has that "primer" keyword, should've surfaced in whatever search.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605


Thanks! Was looking for the same to post, but you beat me to it! [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]



If you use tracker there is a great "tech tree" infographic in the production area.

Not hard to figure out, just a bit of work to maintain if you're not used to it.

The most important part to learn is how fuel translates to HI, and how HI factories produce HI and supply from fuel and resources, while LI produce supply from resources only. Then you need to know just a bit about how HI is converted to stuff like planes, ships, vehicles, etc.

Tracker helps, but it's not necessary to understand it all.

Here is the plane research map referred to by the lizard.


[image]local://upfiles/37283/96E788F7732C47B7ACD5A14A1110AC9B.jpg[/image]



LeeChard -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/21/2016 11:15:26 AM)

I fairly new to the Japanese side but I find Ann's and Mary's useful where opposition is weak.
I ground attack troops outside of cities from altitudes above 5000' and small arms are no issue.



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/21/2016 12:23:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

I fairly new to the Japanese side but I find Ann's and Mary's useful where opposition is weak.
I ground attack troops outside of cities from altitudes above 5000' and small arms are no issue.


They can work, no question, but ...

... imagine dropping 4 x 250kg instead of 1 x 250kg. [;)]

It's all a question of what will fit your ability to upgrade, produce and supply these units.



Revthought -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/21/2016 3:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

This thread even has that "primer" keyword, should've surfaced in whatever search.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605


Thanks for all the useful info guys, I am going to busy I think toying with this stuff in a test game against the AI. Also, I confess to not actually "searching" to see if such a thing existed. I was off the cuff asking the question, because that happened to be what I was thinking about while reading the thread.

I was internet lazy I suppose.

Cheers.



Revthought -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/21/2016 3:23:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]

Its rather easy to get the basics and you can ask all day in this forum.
Like many things you have just to start, screw up a few things and make it better next time.



Good! I'm pretty good at screwing things up! Ask my opponents. [:D]



rustysi -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/21/2016 10:41:15 PM)

IIRC there's one error in that Japanese Aircraft Wire Chart above. Its in the Frank line. If I'm not mistaken it goes Ki-84a to Ki-84r, with the Ki-84b being a separate upgrade path. Don't ask me why I just recall it being said. Of course this may be incorrect and if so I hope someone here will straighten me out. Always meant to check this out but my games haven't gone past Dec '42 as yet. I'll get there some day, I hope.

As for the Japanese there are tons of stuff in the forum which will assist you and a lot of it is given above, but keep in mind that its a matter of player style as well. You can and eventually will tailor it to suit your particular play. As how exactly to learn that, it too is up to the individual. "Screwing' it up is not a bad thing, teaches many lessons on what not to do. [:D]

So, play, read, and ask questions here, you'll get there some day. If your as slow as me, maybe not. Been at the Japanese economy for about three years now. Oh, one other thing I'd suggest is you read a good AAR or two if you haven't already. From the Japanese side I'd suggest Mike Sollis' which is dormant now, but goes to the middle of '43 and is full of great info you need to get Japans' economy started. Alternately you could just play and not touch it to see how things go.



geofflambert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/22/2016 3:10:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

This is what is keeping me, 100%, from giving the Japanese side a go. Is there a primer somewhere that gives a basic breakdown of how the Japanese economy works?

It would also help if there was an illustrated version of each "tech tree." [;)]

Its rather easy to get the basics and you can ask all day in this forum.
Like many things you have just to start, screw up a few things and make it better next time.



Good! I'm pretty good at screwing things up! Ask my opponents. [:D]


If I catch anyone who has screwed up his game posting in this forum, I will do (nothing). [8|]



PaxMondo -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/22/2016 4:12:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

I object. ... Also Anne/Mary dont get a reduced load penalty for low nav/ground attacks.
I find them very usefull early one since they can also operate from level 2 airfields and have acceptable range too.
Dirt cheap also since you have engines around for both and especially the one for the Mary has no other use.


+1

I find them useful throughout china due to level 2 AF ... saves a lot of supply by not having to build AF's ...
Helen is the workhorse though, as noted above, get it, build it, love it as it is as good as you will get.
Peggy has 1/4 less bombload ... something to really consider. You get 1/4 less effectiveness for the same supply cost or to turn it around
you have to spend 1/4 more supply and have 1/4 more bombers to get the same bomb strike results. And you are already less effective than the allied 2E's after 1/43 ...




Lowpe -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/22/2016 5:16:42 AM)

The rule of thumb for bombers is supply equals load/1000.

Dive bombers and Torpedo bombers use 1 supply point.

Tracker tells me currently that for approximately a squadron of 30 planes with 10-20 percent rest my bomber squadrons eat the following supply (fluctuates by number of planes actually flying):

Sally 57
Ann 32
Lilly Ib 26
Sonia 17

Seems to pretty darn close to the above rules.

And that gentlemen and ladies is one of the reasons I am a Sonia fanboy. [:)]

Look at the chart and you can see the Peggy is more expensive than the Helen for one less bomb per plane. What Pax said.[:)]

[image]local://upfiles/44178/5DDC5EDE40DB4DCCA0EA9E5442FFAF6A.jpg[/image]



obvert -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/22/2016 1:29:30 PM)

Thinking about this I'm recnsidering using the Lily Ib for more in China and low supply areas. With 4 x 100kg it has double the punch of the Sonia and more than any other 1E, but will still use less supply than the Mary or Ann.



Lowpe -> RE: What single engine bomber if any should Japan build? (4/22/2016 2:28:47 PM)

Lilly Ib are excellent Japanese bombers, and very frugal as you have pointed out.

If you click on a bomber, the data screen will show the endurance. I always wondered if it is used in ASW/Naval Search calculations. Here you can see a single engine Ann. Sonia's are even lower. A Lilly Ib is almost 6 hours, Helen and Sally are 7 hours.

Does the longer endurance make them better at detecting ships/subs (more time over the search pattern) or is it only used in range?

I know the longer the search range the lower the probability of detection simply because of the exponential growth in the area needing to be searched.

Basically if Ann can search out to range 6, if I reduce the range of a Helen to range 6 will it be approximately twice as good as the Ann because of the better endurance.



[image]local://upfiles/44178/73DB9287E7944673BABF919D3B2EE9F2.jpg[/image]



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