Auto sub ops (Full Version)

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jcjordan -> Auto sub ops (4/25/2016 10:46:01 PM)

I seem to remember you could do this but I may be wrong w/ Old Timers Disease but can you set a specific base to do auto sub ops using some hot key? I'm trying to do some auto sub ops rather than the tedious way of me chosing a tf the allowing the computer to patrol around a waypoint. When I turned on auto sub ops from the preferences panel, the ai just chose the few S boats I had left & sent them on defensive patrols in local homewaters rather than using the long range fleet/Gatos in enemy waters.



BillBrown -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/25/2016 11:32:12 PM)

Auto sub ops means the computer will move your subs to where it thinks is important, you have no control.



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:44:05 AM)

You can set the patrol zone you want while the TF is in "Human Control" and then switch the TF to "Computer Control" in the TF unit screen. I am not sure (because I NEVER use computer control for naval vessels) but I think the AI will keep your manually set PZ, at least initially.

Not sure why you would want to use computer control. Managing sub ops is one of the easier things to do in the game.



btd64 -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 2:09:17 AM)

Bottom line, set sub patrols manually. Unless you want subs patrolling in quantity off the war ravaged New Zealand coast....GP



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 3:15:18 AM)

Don't let the AI do anything. The AI only has an algorithm and not your best interests in mind. In fact, the AI doesn't actually have a mind, and does the stupidest stuff. The AI doesn't even have the intelligence to say "This course is foolish, nay, it is counterproductive. Shall we do it anyway, since the human will not be expecting it? Well, the human may be smarter than we expect ourselves, therefor he will not fall for the subterfuge that makes the most sense. He will fall for the subterfuge that makes no sense whatsoever. So, therefor, we must do the thing that is least expected as it makes no sense at all, and the rational opponent will be utterly unprepared for our stratagem.



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 3:43:42 AM)

Makes sense to me Sir Gornish - so I will never do it... whatever you said. [sm=00000117.gif]



jcjordan -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 3:50:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Don't let the AI do anything. The AI only has an algorithm and not your best interests in mind. In fact, the AI doesn't actually have a mind, and does the stupidest stuff. The AI doesn't even have the intelligence to say "This course is foolish, nay, it is counterproductive. Shall we do it anyway, since the human will not be expecting it? Well, the human may be smarter than we expect ourselves, therefor he will not fall for the subterfuge that makes the most sense. He will fall for the subterfuge that makes no sense whatsoever. So, therefor, we must do the thing that is least expected as it makes no sense at all, and the rational opponent will be utterly unprepared for our stratagem.


Thanks & yes I know the AI has an IQ lesser than a dead vegetable. I was hoping to take some of the tedium of having to create 20+ sub tf on a regular basis. It does ok when you select it to patrol around a point - not perfect but ok.



Pilsator -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 9:01:00 AM)

Auto Sub AI..

I used it once and the AI parked a sub in a port close to the enemy. And me had set it to Upgrade, so the Sub did upgrade, AI captured the base and the sub scuttled it self to prevent capture....

That stopped me using Auto Sub Ops, also I am not any better using the Subs as the Auto Sub routine is.



Leandros -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 9:29:21 AM)


I have come to the habit not to make patrol areas but simply to have them stay in one, if important, hex. I don't
see why they should find more targets by hopping around within a restricted area rather than stay in a specific
hex.

If you do it this way it can get somewhat simpler - by using the "remain on station" button and, when the boat has
returned to its base for refuelling (which it does automatically), you just mark its next operational hex (keeping
the "remain on station ") and it stays there till it needs to go back for refuelling again.

Fred



wdolson -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 9:35:27 AM)

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.



HansBolter -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 12:02:51 PM)

Auto Sub Ops.......just say no!



btd64 -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:13:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Don't let the AI do anything. The AI only has an algorithm and not your best interests in mind. In fact, the AI doesn't actually have a mind, and does the stupidest stuff. The AI doesn't even have the intelligence to say "This course is foolish, nay, it is counterproductive. Shall we do it anyway, since the human will not be expecting it? Well, the human may be smarter than we expect ourselves, therefor he will not fall for the subterfuge that makes the most sense. He will fall for the subterfuge that makes no sense whatsoever. So, therefor, we must do the thing that is least expected as it makes no sense at all, and the rational opponent will be utterly unprepared for our stratagem.


Thanks & yes I know the AI has an IQ lesser than a dead vegetable. I was hoping to take some of the tedium of having to create 20+ sub tf on a regular basis. It does ok when you select it to patrol around a point - not perfect but ok.


Setup 12 every other turn. That will spread them out in terms of leaving the patrol zone to replenish instead of having them all head for the barn at once....GP



btd64 -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:18:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilsator

Auto Sub AI..

I used it once and the AI parked a sub in a port close to the enemy. And me had set it to Upgrade, so the Sub did upgrade, AI captured the base and the sub scuttled it self to prevent capture....

That stopped me using Auto Sub Ops, also I am not any better using the Subs as the Auto Sub routine is.


In all likelihood the scuttled sub was badly damaged. Setting up sub patrols works pretty well....GP



btd64 -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:24:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.


PLUS ONE. Bill, you're up pretty late.[>:]....GP



Pilsator -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:35:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilsator

Auto Sub AI..

I used it once and the AI parked a sub in a port close to the enemy. And me had set it to Upgrade, so the Sub did upgrade, AI captured the base and the sub scuttled it self to prevent capture....

That stopped me using Auto Sub Ops, also I am not any better using the Subs as the Auto Sub routine is.


In all likelihood the scuttled sub was badly damaged. Setting up sub patrols works pretty well....GP


It was upgrading as I turned upgrade on... No way to get it active until fully repaired



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:40:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Don't let the AI do anything. The AI only has an algorithm and not your best interests in mind. In fact, the AI doesn't actually have a mind, and does the stupidest stuff. The AI doesn't even have the intelligence to say "This course is foolish, nay, it is counterproductive. Shall we do it anyway, since the human will not be expecting it? Well, the human may be smarter than we expect ourselves, therefor he will not fall for the subterfuge that makes the most sense. He will fall for the subterfuge that makes no sense whatsoever. So, therefor, we must do the thing that is least expected as it makes no sense at all, and the rational opponent will be utterly unprepared for our stratagem.


Thanks & yes I know the AI has an IQ lesser than a dead vegetable. I was hoping to take some of the tedium of having to create 20+ sub tf on a regular basis. It does ok when you select it to patrol around a point - not perfect but ok.


Well, at least a dead vegetable has a higher IQ than a gorn, sigh. Don't try to make it easier by creating TFs of 2 or more subs, that doesn't work well. I usually give subs a patrol zone consisting of a triangle with loiter times of one day. I have a little black book of everywhere I've spotted Allied TFs (usually using subs with float planes to spot) and the three points of the triangle are all in the routes described by these sightings. That way you can lay off away from enemy bases, avoiding interdiction and getting your float planes shot down. I use sightings from various past opponents rather than waiting for the current opponent to show patterns. It works pretty well. So go out and purchase a little black book.



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 1:44:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.


PLUS ONE. Bill, you're up pretty late.[>:]....GP


Didn't you know? Moderators never sleep.



Leandros -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 3:17:27 PM)

..
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.


Hasn't bothered me so far. Works the other way around, too...or...[:)]..

Fred



Von Weber -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 5:44:16 PM)

What is the best subTF attack speed mission or cruise? If a TF has a cruise speed it has more chances to be attacked.
Has patrol/retriement option any impact on subs TF conducting attack? In wich case the Sub's Tf has more chances to conduct an attack?



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 6:35:30 PM)

Put a good commander in the sub, spend the political point, it's worth it. Then forget about it, the commander will take care of those details.

That said, the default for all TF types is "mission speed", use it.



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 6:42:19 PM)

Also, in case I need say it again, there is no point putting more than one sub in a TF. If you're trying to emulate "wolf pack" tactics just have several single sub TFs operating in a tight area (not the same hex) with a react range of 1.



Von Weber -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 6:42:43 PM)

Ok![:)]
What is the desicive skill for the sub commander?



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 6:51:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber

What is the best subTF attack speed mission or cruise? If a TF has a cruise speed it has more chances to be attacked.
Has patrol/retriement option any impact on subs TF conducting attack? In wich case the Sub's Tf has more chances to conduct an attack?

For any naval or merchant ship/sub full speed uses enormous amounts of fuel and causes damage to systems and engines. Use it only when you are chasing a really valuable target and can't get in position otherwise.

Almost always use "mission speed" which operates at cruise speed when in transit or patrolling but will boost to full speed in combat without your intervention.

Setting cruise speed limits the TF to only that speed and may result in less combat effectiveness. Use this only for heavily damaged ships to reduce the chances that the temporary floatation repairs will begin to fail.

Patrol at choke points and at key points on the route to/from a base. Note the number of hexes a typical TF of xAKs travels in one day (usually six) and place your sub where the TF will end up. Tankers are usually a little faster so you might estimate seven or eight hexes. Major naval ships can usually make eight or nine hexes at mission speed.

There is a risk to approaching a base but it may be worthwhile for valuable targets. I have noted that the last hex of movement into a base usually takes a lot more operations points than the normal seagoing hex traverse. This means if a TF has say, three hexes of movement left in its day phase movement, and it normally moves three hexes in that phase, it will instead stop at the hex outside the port. If you do send a sub to the hex next to a base, check the Detection Level on your sub (by rolling the mouse pointer over it) and if it has been detected vamoose next turn.

Re: Wdolson's comment about static subs, this is true but monitoring D/L and moving the sub when spotted keeps the enemy guessing while using less fuel than constant patrol across multiple hexes.



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 6:58:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber

Ok![:)]
What is the desicive skill for the sub commander?


# 1 - Naval Skill above 70 ( to get the hits and to dodge attacks) ASW compares the sub skipper skill vs the ASW skipper skill.

# 2. - Aggression above 60, but not in the 80s. Aggression means risk-taking so you want the sub to take on an escorted convoy but you don't really want it using the deck gun against a cruiser ... One of the forum members did a lengthy statistical study that showed that the sub skippers with lower end acceptable aggression did better in shallow water attacks and were more survivable than those with aggression up in the seventies. He concluded there was a "patient stalking" effect.

#3. Leadership - the crew will gain experience faster with a good leader.



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 7:35:26 PM)

.

[image]local://upfiles/37002/19300C6E228E44008BCFAC631A36D559.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 8:16:15 PM)

Your Gornish, I am pretty sure the Beatles were non-violent so the yellow submarine would just invite the convoy commander in for a sing-along, and maybe something "mind expanding".



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 8:26:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Your Gornish, I am pretty sure the Beatles were non-violent so the yellow submarine would just invite the convoy commander in for a sing-along, and maybe something "mind expanding".


Sounds like an effective delaying tactic giving more time for the red and blue subs to react. Brilliant.



HansBolter -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 8:30:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber

What is the best subTF attack speed mission or cruise? If a TF has a cruise speed it has more chances to be attacked.
Has patrol/retriement option any impact on subs TF conducting attack? In wich case the Sub's Tf has more chances to conduct an attack?


Cruise is the Mission speed 90% of the time.

Mission speed basically means cruise until an aspect of the mission requires full speed such as a bombardment mission.

The bombardment TF will attempt to get within one movement phase of full speed movement from the target using cruise speed and ten switch to full speed for the sprint into and out from the target.

The rest of the time mission speed is cruise speed.



geofflambert -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 8:39:36 PM)

If you put a sub in a hex at mission speed with orders to stay put, it uses no or virtually no fuel, meaning either mission speed can be anywhere less than cruise speed including dead stop, or we have a design problem that should be easily fixed.



SqzMyLemon -> RE: Auto sub ops (4/26/2016 9:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

I have come to the habit not to make patrol areas but simply to have them stay in one, if important, hex. I don't
see why they should find more targets by hopping around within a restricted area rather than stay in a specific
hex.

If you do it this way it can get somewhat simpler - by using the "remain on station" button and, when the boat has
returned to its base for refuelling (which it does automatically), you just mark its next operational hex (keeping
the "remain on station ") and it stays there till it needs to go back for refuelling again.

Fred


Unless something has changed, if a sub is set to "remain on station" it will not react to a target passing by within the 1 hex reaction range, assuming you're setting the range to 1 and not 0 of course. So instead of 7 possible target hexes, you're limiting yourself to only one possible intercept, the submarine's hex.



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