Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not?

Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (Full Version)

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Ormbane -> Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/5/2016 10:42:08 PM)
Is it worthwhile to rebuild destroyed Dutch units once all the Dutch bases are captured? Are their base units valuable elsewhere? Are their LCU valuable elsewhere? I assume aircraft units are not worthwhile since the Dutch don't have many pilot replacements, or am I wrong about this?

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/5/2016 11:33:03 PM)
You'll learn more about the game, the interface, and the report screens if you dig in and see if it's even possible to rebuild Dutch units. If so, how much? Where? You'll probably get helpful answers below my post, but you should try it yourself and see how it goes. It's how you learn this monster.

BillBrown -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/5/2016 11:39:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 You'll learn more about the game, the interface, and the report screens if you dig in and see if it's even possible to rebuild Dutch units. If so, how much? Where? You'll probably get helpful answers below my post, but you should try it yourself and see how it goes. It's how you learn this monster. +1

Lowpe -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 12:14:40 AM)
Part of the attraction of playing the Allies is using all the wonderful troops, planes and ships from each different country. I always take pains to to use them first, rather the just the really big countries. Adds so much flavor.

Canoerebel -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 2:56:06 AM)
Orm, one of the challenges in deciding whether to rebuild units is whether you have replacements in your pools to fill out the ranks. The Dutch pools will undoubtedly be very slim. You might be able to rebuild a few select units, but you won't be able to rebuild the Dutch military or anything close to it. But Moose is right - look at it carefully, draw some deductions, and see what you come up with.

geofflambert -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 3:56:44 AM)
I'm not sure there's a cost for trying, as you won't use any resources that would be spent otherwise. If I were playing the Allied side I'd try to train pilots until an opportunity arose to field them. There are a few air units you can evacuate to either Australia or India depending on circumstances. My judgment is do so, retain cadres of units if nothing else. Infantry LCUs are probably a lost cause but if I recall there may be one HQ that can be evacuated. Do so and make sure you don't wait too long.

geofflambert -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 4:01:16 AM)
I think it would be appropriate to address the first "Orm" as Orm and address the rest with their own usernames. Just to avoid confusion if for no other reason.

rustysi -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 4:22:38 AM)
quote: I'm not sure there's a cost for trying, as you won't use any resources that would be spent otherwise. You'll be spending PP's and from my experience there always seems to be more demand for these than what's available.

Omat -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 7:26:37 AM)
Hello I would not rebuild them. Better to spend pp to free US units. What I do (against AI) I buy the 3 Dutch AA Battalions and 1st and 2nd ML-KNIL Aviation, Engineer unist and evacuate them. Early on I find the Aviation units usefull in Australia because thny can build up base. Early on you also do not have enough aviation support there but can bring very fast US fighter and Bomber Sqn to Ausstralia. So they can help to keep your planes in flying condition. But I would rebuild them. As you see I abandon more or less the Dutch Islands.... Omat

Chris21wen -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 8:32:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: I'm not sure there's a cost for trying, as you won't use any resources that would be spent otherwise. You'll be spending PP's and from my experience there always seems to be more demand for these than is available. One of the problems you have with Dutch units is they are in a restricted HQ and once their bases have gone you have nowhere to put them unless you spend PPs too either reassign them to a non-restricted HQ (usually ABDA) or create an ABDA base(s) elsewhere. E.g. Aus.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 2:48:37 PM)
The Dutch get so few replacements that you would be spending PP's on units that will never rebuild. Also Dutch units have no combat power and so you are really just after the engineers, support, aviation units. By June 1942 you will have enough from the west coast of the US to bring forward. And the British/Indians should have enough to make Colombo your main main and a forward base at Calcutta and wherever you decide to hold Burma/eastern India. PP's should be saved to replace leaders and most importantly free up restricted US infantry division/regiments since you will need them. By 1943/1944 when you are ready to take back the DEI and New Guinea then you should have enough PP's to free up the Australian home army and combined with US Army divisions wage combat. Plus if Burma is a stalemate and you have an open supply line you can use British and Indian units in the DEI and bypass the Burma/Malaysia slog

jmalter -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/6/2016 4:11:39 PM)
Most of the North Oz bases can be converted to ABDA for low PP cost, then Dutch airgroups can transfer to them. Patrol planes can be supported by naval auxiliaries, but you'll also need to buy out some KNIL air-support LCUs to ABDA, in order to load them on to ships. There are some few minor Dutch base-forces dispersed around the DEI that can be re-combined into substantial air-support groups, just be sure that the sub-units' destinations will match together for the re-combine. One can save a substantial portion of the Dutch airforce & air-support w/ this method, for < 500 PP cost. But it depends on one's commitment defending Darwin. I've had bulk success using this strategy against the IJ AI. In a PBEM game, it's a judgement call.

bilbow -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 1:34:10 AM)
The one type of Dutch unit I try to save are the 3-plane DO-24K and Catalina units. Allies are dreadfully short of search aircraft in the early months. These guys don't have great skills, but they are a lot better than nothing. You may have to convert a base or 2 to ABDA for them to fly to and operate from after the Dutch bases fall.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 6:09:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jmalter Most of the North Oz bases can be converted to ABDA for low PP cost, then Dutch airgroups can transfer to them. Patrol planes can be supported by naval auxiliaries, but you'll also need to buy out some KNIL air-support LCUs to ABDA, in order to load them on to ships. There are some few minor Dutch base-forces dispersed around the DEI that can be re-combined into substantial air-support groups, just be sure that the sub-units' destinations will match together for the re-combine. One can save a substantial portion of the Dutch airforce & air-support w/ this method, for < 500 PP cost. But it depends on one's commitment defending Darwin. I've had bulk success using this strategy against the IJ AI. In a PBEM game, it's a judgement call. To each his own, but your PP numbers are off. Darwin alone is 600 PP. The other north coast bases are 200-400 each. To get some outdated aircraft out and for what? To see the Japanese coming? You don't have anything there to stop landings, so what's the point? 600-1000 PP are precious in that era. A big chunk of a bought-out US Army ID. If one plays with paying PP to cross borders 1000 PP mean getting some Chinese out to Burma, or some Indian forces into Burma. Lots of other, better uses. The Dutch AF is a one-shot asset pretty much. No pilot backstopping either. My comments are for PBEM. In my non-Ironman AI games the AI never tried to land in Oz, anywhere.

Revthought -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 6:24:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: jmalter Most of the North Oz bases can be converted to ABDA for low PP cost, then Dutch airgroups can transfer to them. Patrol planes can be supported by naval auxiliaries, but you'll also need to buy out some KNIL air-support LCUs to ABDA, in order to load them on to ships. There are some few minor Dutch base-forces dispersed around the DEI that can be re-combined into substantial air-support groups, just be sure that the sub-units' destinations will match together for the re-combine. One can save a substantial portion of the Dutch airforce & air-support w/ this method, for < 500 PP cost. But it depends on one's commitment defending Darwin. I've had bulk success using this strategy against the IJ AI. In a PBEM game, it's a judgement call. To each his own, but your PP numbers are off. Darwin alone is 600 PP. The other north coast bases are 200-400 each. To get some outdated aircraft out and for what? To see the Japanese coming? You don't have anything there to stop landings, so what's the point? 600-1000 PP are precious in that era. A big chunk of a bought-out US Army ID. If one plays with paying PP to cross borders 1000 PP mean getting some Chinese out to Burma, or some Indian forces into Burma. Lots of other, better uses. The Dutch AF is a one-shot asset pretty much. No pilot backstopping either. My comments are for PBEM. In my non-Ironman AI games the AI never tried to land in Oz, anywhere. Don't some of these reform as RAF units anyway? I thought this was the case, which has largely informed my strategy with the RNAF. I treat them as disposable and disband them when I run out of supplied bases. The only thing that strikes me as useful/worth saving from the DEI are the HQ units and the engineers for their support values--both naval and air--which are kind of hard to come by for the allies in 1942.

btd64 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 6:51:39 PM)
I simply select a few support units and move them to Oz. Select about 4 fighter, 4 bomber and 6 patrol squadrons. I buy out the support units to ABDA for maybe 180 pp's. The air units appear at Aden in about 90 days on average. I believe they show up in ABDA hq. if they don't it's about 200 pp's to buy them out. Then just ship em out....GP

btd64 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 6:58:06 PM)
Also, Dutch air gets new fighters and bombers. Not a lot of them so you have to be careful about how you use them though....GP

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 7:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Revthought Don't some of these reform as RAF units anyway? I thought this was the case, which has largely informed my strategy with the RNAF. I treat them as disposable and disband them when I run out of supplied bases. The only thing that strikes me as useful/worth saving from the DEI are the HQ units and the engineers for their support values--both naval and air--which are kind of hard to come by for the allies in 1942. About a dozen do, in dribs all the way to 1945. All over the place, from Canberra to Ceylon. Most of the airframes are junk. It's just a matter of scale. Too many Allied players have played the first year over and over. By 1943, and especially 1944/45, the Dutch anything don't amount to germs on the fleas on the dog. They're just irrelevant. Early game PPs are not irrelevant, however. The LCUs are a mixed bag of white and non-white restricted. Some of the yellow restricted are pretty cheap to buy out at circa 15 PP. But you then have to transport them. In my PBEM experience it's a poor Japan player that lets transport TFs operate deep in the DEI where a lot of the Dutch land forces begin, after the first two weeks, if not sooner. And the LCUs worth having, of course, aren't 15 PP. They're a significant hit to the old PP bank, and take multiple ships to lift out, plus the load time when the TF is exposed to the IJN. And even if you do get them out, the replacement pools are basically non-existent. They're one-shot assets.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 7:32:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: General Patton Also, Dutch air gets new fighters and bombers. Not a lot of them so you have to be careful about how you use them though....GP Not a lot is an understatement.

Revthought -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/7/2016 11:04:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Revthought Don't some of these reform as RAF units anyway? I thought this was the case, which has largely informed my strategy with the RNAF. I treat them as disposable and disband them when I run out of supplied bases. The only thing that strikes me as useful/worth saving from the DEI are the HQ units and the engineers for their support values--both naval and air--which are kind of hard to come by for the allies in 1942. About a dozen do, in dribs all the way to 1945. All over the place, from Canberra to Ceylon. Most of the airframes are junk. It's just a matter of scale. Too many Allied players have played the first year over and over. By 1943, and especially 1944/45, the Dutch anything don't amount to germs on the fleas on the dog. They're just irrelevant. Early game PPs are not irrelevant, however. The LCUs are a mixed bag of white and non-white restricted. Some of the yellow restricted are pretty cheap to buy out at circa 15 PP. But you then have to transport them. In my PBEM experience it's a poor Japan player that lets transport TFs operate deep in the DEI where a lot of the Dutch land forces begin, after the first two weeks, if not sooner. And the LCUs worth having, of course, aren't 15 PP. They're a significant hit to the old PP bank, and take multiple ships to lift out, plus the load time when the TF is exposed to the IJN. And even if you do get them out, the replacement pools are basically non-existent. They're one-shot assets. I pretty much evacuate what I'm going to evacuate in the first 2 weeks, and then really stuff on the two big islands. Anything deep in the DEI isn't worth it to me as, besides the PP it's a crap shoot if I can actually manage to evacuate any of it, or lose the LCUs + transports to the IJN instead.

jmalter -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/8/2016 6:28:57 PM)
Hi Moose, I disagree w/ your criticism. But I am playing DBB-b scenario 30, it's likely that the HQ transfer-cost is different for your game-play. I was able to change many undeveloped bases in North Oz for 50 PP each, & neither Port Hedland nor Darwin cost more than 250 PP. Now in Oct 43, I've got multiple Dutch BFs in North Oz for air-support, I've got 31 Dutch air-groups w/ ample reserves of PBY-5 (38)& B-25C (24) Mitchell conversion/replacement airframes, staffed w/ high-exp cross-trained pilots. The Dutch Dorniers are still bringing the hurt in the LowN role, and they're still receiving 1 new pilot each month. quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: jmalter Most of the North Oz bases can be converted to ABDA for low PP cost, then Dutch airgroups can transfer to them. To each his own, but your PP numbers are off. Darwin alone is 600 PP. The other north coast bases are 200-400 each. My comments are for PBEM. In my non-Ironman AI games the AI never tried to land in Oz, anywhere. Just lately, my Oz forces boiled out north & captured Saumlaki, an undeveloped base. It was a mere 40 PP to convert it to ABDA command, now my saved Dutch airgroups can transfer there & participate in the continuing offensive.

geofflambert -> RE: Rebuild destroyed Dutch units - or not? (5/9/2016 12:28:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: General Patton Also, Dutch air gets new fighters and bombers. Not a lot of them so you have to be careful about how you use them though....GP Not a lot is an understatement. Right. The Dutch? When I was playing the Allied side I was always wondering when the British/Commonwealth equipment and pilots were going to start showing up. [&:] That is why you would be wise to send plenty of US engineers and air squadrons and infrastructure to the Indian Ocean part of the theatre. Just do it.

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