Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (Full Version)

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Macclan5 -> Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/10/2016 9:26:10 PM)

Being a relative newbie myself I am now far enough along to pass along my epiphany.

I read it posted on these forums once before (*source forgotten) but it is so very very true.

"The greatest enemy of good is perfect"

--

Before I purchased I have read much about the huge learning curve, the clickfest, the micromanagement. Further the challenges with AI, the lexicon of terminology, and of course the necessity to be able to recite the entire order of battle for each regiment, battalion, and division in the pacific theater.

All of which is at best only partially true and may or may not make the game more enjoyable depending upon your style. To a certain type of war gamer some of the truest aspects (like OOB) may be highly appealing.

I now approach mid 1943 in my first game. Historical difficulty, Player Defined Upgrades off, "no reload challenge due to unfavorable results", and escorts required for off map convoys.

I think I am winning the war. [:'(]

This has simply been one of the most intellectually stimulating computer hobbies I have ever had. Worth every penny a hundred times over.

I have now learned so much I have done "wrong" [8D] ; and still this game is simply amazing.

I am constantly fighting the urge to restart actually. But the adage is correct. I don't need to be perfect to enjoy the game.

I'll be perfect 'next time' on a harder level or when I can dedicate time to be a thoughtful PBEM partner. [:D]

---

The community on these message boards is also incredibly helpful, informed, and often humorous.

Do yourself a favor and buy into this game:

1) Read the manual.

Print it from PDF at work, or pay $6.25 (CAD) at the UPS store for the color print out off your USB stick. You don't need to recite line by line but it answers the most obvious of questions ; and surprisingly it sticks when you play.

2) Play the Coral Sea / Guadalcanal tutorials.

Shorter in scope, less stress, so educational. Don't sweat it when your audacious 1st landing is destroyed by air power and pushed back into the sea.

3) Ask this helpful community if still stumped

4) Abandon yea - your spouse and children.... Ooops <edit> that part out.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/10/2016 10:49:46 PM)

I have to say this game, and its reliance on concentration and thinking at a very deep level has got me through some difficult moments in my life by providing the need to forget all the rubbish going on around and focus for a while on the intellectual immersion.

Best wishes

Roger



btd64 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 12:47:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

I have to say this game, and its reliance on concentration and thinking at a very deep level has got me through some difficult moments in my life by providing the need to forget all the rubbish going on around and focus for a while on the intellectual immersion.

Best wishes

Roger


PLUS ONE. Many times the deep thought needed for AE ahs helped me as well....GP



dave sindel -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 1:00:50 PM)

I'm in July 42 of my first GC game, and it's my first PBEM game as well. One of the highlights of my day is getting to sit down and do a PBEM turn in the evening. That allows me to unwind from the RL stresses of work. I've made some silly mistakes and lost a bunch of ships, but I am still having a lot of fun with it.



RayYoung -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 2:43:48 PM)

This thread hits me where I live really.

I have been playing and replaying the GC for over a year. Seeking perfection over the good.

I admit to the frustration of the early stages of the war. It brings home to me the difficulties those who had to deal with RL at the time faced.

But, somehow, I don't know why, I have come to sort of enjoy restarting from scratch once I have accumulated enough experience and new information to justify doing so. I feel that doing so early enough in the game (I have never made it past Feb. 1942) that I don't lose too much in the process and still have a lot of un-experienced events yet in the "future" to keep me interested.

But, I have to agree with the original post, there is a danger in trying to create the optimal start knowing that the odds are overwhelming against your being able to alter the circumstance (I play the AI vs Allies).

I consciously try to absorb the body blows along the way and avoid the temptation for a "do over".

I don't restart the campaign without qualms over the 4 to 6 hour set up period following the Japanese Initial Moves. So, it takes more than losing a particularly sensitive TF or even a single ship to initiate my doing so. Generally it has to do with a recognition that I have made an error in overlooking some detail of the game that is haunting my strategy or leading me in a direction that seems doomed to fail.

Yet, I know that, playing as the Allies, victory will come due to overwhelming superiority in men and material as time progresses.

Overall, I have to agree with all that has been posted in this thread before me.

I thoroughly enjoy the game. I find that it is so involved that I am essentially forced to forget RL for a time and concentrate on the problems inherent in something this detailed and complex.

I can't believe more followers haven't appreciated this game or that Matrix hasn't recognized the following this game already enjoys enough to merit their considering AE2



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 3:44:12 PM)

"The perfect is the enemy of the good" is a translation of a saying by Voltaire from the French. In the Wiki the following also appears:



[image]local://upfiles/37002/41B1E526A51E4B84B7115BEA40F86B5A.jpg[/image]



Macclan5 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:12:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RayYoung

I have been playing and replaying the GC for over a year. Seeking perfection over the good.

....

But, somehow, I don't know why, I have come to sort of enjoy restarting from scratch once I have accumulated enough experience and new information to justify doing so. I feel that doing so early enough in the game (I have never made it past Feb. 1942) that I don't lose too much in the process and still have a lot of un-experienced events yet in the "future" to keep me interested.

But, I have to agree with the original post, there is a danger in trying to create the optimal start knowing that the odds are overwhelming against your being able to alter the circumstance (I play the AI vs Allies).



This is exactly the struggle I am faced with each turn... based on my own house rules.. [8D]

(i.e. no reloads, etc)

1) I could of managed Philippines and Singapore much better
2) I could have saved many more ships early and used mines more effectively
3) I could have counter attacked here and here and there and so paused the Imperial march and set myself up for easier victory's now in 1943
4) I could have managed my ship upgrades better
5) I could have merged my Marine / Army OOB better to have more divisions upgrade together...
6) Ad nauseum

[8D]

I consol myself that I will be perfect "next time" when I play Ironman and then Japan and then PBEM

[:D]



Macclan5 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:17:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

"The perfect is the enemy of the good" is a translation of a saying by Voltaire from the French.


Thank you my reptilian friend.

Indeed and I have also seen Voltaire quoted here on these forums many times by this community. I think actually it must be the underlying rationale of Sardukhaur's (spelling) tutorial AAR which is invaluable.

That is actually a microcosm of this community and the great support and humour..

WITP-AE ~ more Voltaire less Machiavelli

[:D]




geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:35:53 PM)

Less Machiavelli? You know very well politics is not allowed on this forum! [:D]



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:37:48 PM)

I know, I know, he wrote The Prince of Wales



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:44:28 PM)

No more Sun Tzu or Clausewitz Have any of you tried to read their stuff? I cannot imagine anything more boring (except my own posts). Don't subject yourself to such.



Macclan5 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 5:47:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

No more Sun Tzu or Clausewitz Have any of you tried to read their stuff? I cannot imagine anything more boring (except my own posts). Don't subject yourself to such.


Limited - Mostly due to Polly Sci 201.6 and History 220.3 circa 1985...

In the midst of an Economics / Accounting degree I thought to read the old masters as 'easy credits' [8D]

Of course I also play WITP-AE because I simply dont get enough computer time at work [:D]



HansBolter -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 7:57:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

"The perfect is the enemy of the good" is a translation of a saying by Voltaire from the French. In the Wiki the following also appears:



[image]local://upfiles/37002/41B1E526A51E4B84B7115BEA40F86B5A.jpg[/image]



I have personally always had a difficult time accepting this.

Perfect is the enemy of good only if one deludes oneself into believing one can attain perfection.

If one treats perfection as a mathematical limit that can never be achieved, but one should always keep striving to half the distance to, then one can continually improve on the status quo of what is good.

Once one stops striving to half the distance, ie...accepting good as 'good enough' one give up all progress toward improving on that status quo.

Perfection is something we should all rationally accept we can never attain, but should also never stop striving toward.



rustysi -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/11/2016 10:57:04 PM)

Philosopher eh?[:D]



Quixote -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 12:48:19 AM)

Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good.

An appropriate quote here, and points for style if you know who said it (without Google, anyway.)

This game is the perfect canvas for those who always strive to get better, as there is no such thing as perfect in AE. You can learn to play it well. A few people learn to play it very well, but no one is ever perfect at it. Which is awesome (unless you happen to be OCD... [:'(])



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 1:08:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


ORIGINAL: geofflambert

"The perfect is the enemy of the good" is a translation of a saying by Voltaire from the French. In the Wiki the following also appears:



I have personally always had a difficult time accepting this.

Perfect is the enemy of good only if one deludes oneself into believing one can attain perfection.

If one treats perfection as a mathematical limit that can never be achieved, but one should always keep striving to half the distance to, then one can continually improve on the status quo of what is good.

Once one stops striving to half the distance, ie...accepting good as 'good enough' one give up all progress toward improving on that status quo.

Perfection is something we should all rationally accept we can never attain, but should also never stop striving toward.


My second CO used to say this to us officers. And he was in charge of a nuclear reactor and a whole bunch of nuclear weapons. I usually took it to mean, "get it buttoned up so we can get to sea before the end of time."



sanch -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 4:52:32 AM)

Ever since I was a little kid, my mantra has been "shoot for the stars; you may miss and land on the moon"



Macclan5 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 3:36:21 PM)

Its contextual...

I do not disagree with Hans / BW / Quix / Sanch in this either.

I think (as I recall debates from Poly Sci) the context of Voltaire is "not to use perfect as an excuse to accomplish nothing".

i.e. in my instance continually restart the game and never see it through because I could be more perfect in 1941.

To Hans point of view 'striving to achieve' something perfect is indeed a worthy goal so long as the abstracted vision of perfect does not interfere with accomplishing something.

However I am an economics guy and not a philosopher.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 5:32:27 PM)

If you're Econ just think of it as diminishing returns per unit time.



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/12/2016 7:54:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

"The perfect is the enemy of the good" is a translation of a saying by Voltaire from the French. In the Wiki the following also appears:



[image]local://upfiles/37002/41B1E526A51E4B84B7115BEA40F86B5A.jpg[/image]



I have personally always had a difficult time accepting this.

Perfect is the enemy of good only if one deludes oneself into believing one can attain perfection.

If one treats perfection as a mathematical limit that can never be achieved, but one should always keep striving to half the distance to, then one can continually improve on the status quo of what is good.

Once one stops striving to half the distance, ie...accepting good as 'good enough' one give up all progress toward improving on that status quo.

Perfection is something we should all rationally accept we can never attain, but should also never stop striving toward.


I don't think you're getting it. What you are saying is what it is saying, in other words don't try to be perfect.



BBfanboy -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 12:19:34 AM)

Not so much don't try, as don't wait for perfection before taking action. At some point you must go with what you have, perfect or not. I got two kids that way!



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 3:45:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Not so much don't try, as don't wait for perfection before taking action. At some point you must go with what you have, perfect or not. I got two kids that way!


No, they are perfect. It's your judgment of their perfection that is imperfect.



warspite1 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 5:57:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Not so much don't try, as don't wait for perfection before taking action. At some point you must go with what you have, perfect or not. I got two kids that way!
warspite1

Lol! [:)]

Well there's at least a couple of ways I read that sentence?!

Re-read it and then ask yourself - was the poster saying:

a) Mrs BBfanboy isn't great but time was marching on so.....
b) My...ahem.... technique isn't great but we kind of huffed and puffed a bit and... hey whaddya know? Mrs BBfanboy became pregnant!


[:D] For the record I'm sure Mrs BBfanboy is lovely - just teasing. Not saying anything about your sexual prowess however [;)]



BBfanboy -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 6:54:15 AM)

Like Richard Nixon, I want to make myself perfectly clear - and also like him I probably won't .... but the thought was that every man wants to be as well endowed as certain movie "actors", but most of us are "average" on the bell curve. Investing in various devices, potions and surgery might get me closer to "perfection", but just advancing to contact with what was available got the job done, and saved a lot of time, cash and pain! [8D]



warspite1 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 7:04:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Like Richard Nixon, I want to make myself perfectly clear - and also like him I probably won't .... but the thought was that every man wants to be as well endowed as certain movie "actors", but most of us are "average" on the bell curve. Investing in various devices, potions and surgery might get me closer to "perfection", but just advancing to contact with what was available got the job done, and saved a lot of time, cash and pain! [8D]
warspite1

Its not what you've got - its what you do with it that counts [8D]



rustysi -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/13/2016 10:24:50 PM)

OMG Warspite1, what on earth happened to your avatar?!?!?[&:]



HansBolter -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/14/2016 12:10:05 AM)

It's not the size of the boat, but the motion of the ocean![;)]



geofflambert -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/14/2016 3:24:16 AM)

warspite1's avatar is a motorized infantry division. Will he take it out on the water to get the cut of its jib?



warspite1 -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/14/2016 6:23:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

OMG Warspite1, what on earth happened to your avatar?!?!?[&:]
warspite1

Hi rustyi - see my sig line for an explanation. It's only a temporary thing - the Grand Old Lady will be back in her rightful place soon [:)]



Yaab -> RE: Semi OT - Epiphany - advice to newbies (5/15/2016 8:24:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Being a relative newbie myself I am now far enough along to pass along my epiphany.

I read it posted on these forums once before (*source forgotten) but it is so very very true.

"The greatest enemy of good is perfect"

--

Before I purchased I have read much about the huge learning curve, the clickfest, the micromanagement. Further the challenges with AI, the lexicon of terminology, and of course the necessity to be able to recite the entire order of battle for each regiment, battalion, and division in the pacific theater.

All of which is at best only partially true and may or may not make the game more enjoyable depending upon your style. To a certain type of war gamer some of the truest aspects (like OOB) may be highly appealing.

I now approach mid 1943 in my first game. Historical difficulty, Player Defined Upgrades off, "no reload challenge due to unfavorable results", and escorts required for off map convoys.

I think I am winning the war. [:'(]

This has simply been one of the most intellectually stimulating computer hobbies I have ever had. Worth every penny a hundred times over.

I have now learned so much I have done "wrong" [8D] ; and still this game is simply amazing.

I am constantly fighting the urge to restart actually. But the adage is correct. I don't need to be perfect to enjoy the game.

I'll be perfect 'next time' on a harder level or when I can dedicate time to be a thoughtful PBEM partner. [:D]

---

The community on these message boards is also incredibly helpful, informed, and often humorous.

Do yourself a favor and buy into this game:

1) Read the manual.

Print it from PDF at work, or pay $6.25 (CAD) at the UPS store for the color print out off your USB stick. You don't need to recite line by line but it answers the most obvious of questions ; and surprisingly it sticks when you play.

2) Play the Coral Sea / Guadalcanal tutorials.

Shorter in scope, less stress, so educational. Don't sweat it when your audacious 1st landing is destroyed by air power and pushed back into the sea.

3) Ask this helpful community if still stumped

4) Abandon yea - your spouse and children.... Ooops <edit> that part out.


Congrats!

I am on the other side of the fence. I never progressed past 1st January, 1942. The restarts are just too good. Still learning tons about the game in my sixth year of WITP:AE gaming.



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