Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (Full Version)

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DeZanic -> Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 10:10:16 AM)

Hello

I have had a serious disastrous war for the last 9 months in this game. It is august 1942 and I lost a serious amount of carriers because of a failed attempt to attack Rabaul.

Now I am kinda locked and can't do anything I guess. Is this the point where I should surrender and start over?

By the way.. I do not reload savegames. What has happened has happened and cannot be undone. So that is not an option. I would like what I do in this case. Hints? Because I feel kinda depressed now.

Thanks for some answers and hints.

[image]local://upfiles/47767/A2EF359F6F364B46B68DB1F776E813BE.jpg[/image]



VukyTzar -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 1:02:37 PM)

As JFB i'm having evil laugh right now[:)][:D][:D]. I'll watch this one closely and I am sorry I cant help you. Good luck! [8D]



John B. -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 1:45:10 PM)

How many carriers do you still have and has the IJN lost any?



BBfanboy -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 5:02:31 PM)

Are you playing a human opponent or the AI?
The AI does not care if you start over.
If your opponent is human, he will not be happy if his success equals your quitting - he put effort into getting the game this far too.

And If you are playing the AI, I question your policy of not reloading/replaying. Most new players are playing the AI to learn about the game. Redoing a turn is a great way to figure out what works after you have found out what does not work.

And if you have not seen the advice already, be sure to exit the game and restart it - or even restart your computer - to renew the random number settings that are used by the game for "dice rolls". I have found that making lots of changes during turn prep seems to use up all your good luck, but restarting before running the turn usually gives a reasonable result instead of a disaster.



Lokasenna -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 5:25:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Are you playing a human opponent or the AI?
The AI does not care if you start over.
If your opponent is human, he will not be happy if his success equals your quitting - he put effort into getting the game this far too.

And If you are playing the AI, I question your policy of not reloading/replaying. Most new players are playing the AI to learn about the game. Redoing a turn is a great way to figure out what works after you have found out what does not work.

And if you have not seen the advice already, be sure to exit the game and restart it - or even restart your computer - to renew the random number settings that are used by the game for "dice rolls". I have found that making lots of changes during turn prep seems to use up all your good luck, but restarting before running the turn usually gives a reasonable result instead of a disaster.


Idunno. In this case, I actually recommend NOT reloading. Call it an experiment in hardship. A learning experience! He can learn in case this ever happens to him against a human in a PBEM.


You'll be fine. Load up the "ship availability" screen from the I-key screen and filter for CV/CVL, sort by date. Just look at early 1944. You get maybe a dozen. Then look at the CVEs - you won't need your CVs to cover landings. It'll be great!

Also, August of 1942 is an awfully early time to be trying to counterpunch Rabaul. I think you just learned that. There are a lot of smaller factors that add up to that conclusion, like:

-Ship upgrades (your flak isn't very good yet, at least on most ships)
-Plane upgrades (still Wildcats, Dauntlesses)
-OOB (Order Of Battle - the CV/CVE thing I just mentioned, and you don't have m/any Fletchers!)
-No amphibious assault ships yet
-Still poor USAAF LBA choices
-LCU TOE upgrades
-LCUs in general - only a few marines, not many USMC/USA tank units yet, etc.

I'm sure I missed a few other factors, but hopefully you get the idea.


EDIT: Also, you don't have to exit the game or restart your computer to get a new set of randoms on an AI turn. As the Allies, simply load the wpae002.pws file, which is the pre-turn autosave, and it will run a fresh replay with new randoms when you exit those orders. As Japan, you can also load the wpae002.pws but it won't let you change any orders - it will jump straight into the replay.



DeZanic -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 5:26:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

How many carriers do you still have and has the IJN lost any?


One British carrier is operating in the Indian Ocean and Yorktown and Lexington are under repair in Pearl Harbour for a few weeks. Two escort carriers escorting very large convoys of 15+ ships between US and Australia.

So 1 CV in operating in Indian Ocean and 2 CVE in the Pacific is what is left.

The Japanese have lost 3 CV and 1 CVL during this period. I don't know how man they have left.

Plan is now to stay defensive and closely monitor every move of Japanese carriers and avoid. I will switch to fleet in beeing and avoid surface combat with them till February 1943. Switiching also to submarine and sending wolfpacks to hunt their carriers instead. Looks promising so far.. one carrier has been sunk this way and more have been hit but the torpedoes fail too often or else I would have had maybe 2 more sunk japanese carriers by my submarines.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Are you playing a human opponent or the AI?
The AI does not care if you start over.
If your opponent is human, he will not be happy if his success equals your quitting - he put effort into getting the game this far too.

And If you are playing the AI, I question your policy of not reloading/replaying. Most new players are playing the AI to learn about the game. Redoing a turn is a great way to figure out what works after you have found out what does not work.

And if you have not seen the advice already, be sure to exit the game and restart it - or even restart your computer - to renew the random number settings that are used by the game for "dice rolls". I have found that making lots of changes during turn prep seems to use up all your good luck, but restarting before running the turn usually gives a reasonable result instead of a disaster.



Playing against AI. I have promised myself from the beginning to play this game without reloading because in real life during the second world war the generals can't reload battles they made mistakes at. A loss is a loss and a victory is a victory. The AI does not either reload a battle when he makes a mistake. So I think it is cheating the AI by doing so.

I am trying to be positive and see this as a challenge... war ends in 1946 so I hope I have time to rectify my mistakes.



Lokasenna -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 5:28:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeZanic


quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

How many carriers do you still have and has the IJN lost any?


One British carrier is operating in the Indian Ocean and Yorktown and Lexington are under repair in Pearl Harbour for a few weeks. Two escort carriers escorting very large convoys of 15+ ships between US and Australia.

So 1 CV in operating in Indian Ocean and 2 CVE in the Pacific is what is left.

The Japanese have lost 3 CV and 1 CVL during this period. I don't know how man they have left.

Plan is now to stay defensive and closely monitor every move of Japanese carriers and avoid. I will switch to fleet in beeing and avoid surface combat with them till February 1943. Switiching also to submarine and sending wolfpacks to hunt their carriers instead. Looks promising so far.. one carrier has been sunk this way and more have been hit but the torpedoes fail too often or else I would have had maybe 2 more sunk japanese carriers by my submarines.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Are you playing a human opponent or the AI?
The AI does not care if you start over.
If your opponent is human, he will not be happy if his success equals your quitting - he put effort into getting the game this far too.

And If you are playing the AI, I question your policy of not reloading/replaying. Most new players are playing the AI to learn about the game. Redoing a turn is a great way to figure out what works after you have found out what does not work.

And if you have not seen the advice already, be sure to exit the game and restart it - or even restart your computer - to renew the random number settings that are used by the game for "dice rolls". I have found that making lots of changes during turn prep seems to use up all your good luck, but restarting before running the turn usually gives a reasonable result instead of a disaster.



Playing against AI. I have promised myself from the beginning to play this game without reloading because in real life during the second world war the generals can't reload battles they made mistakes at. A loss is a loss and a victory is a victory. The AI does not either reload a battle when he makes a mistake. So I think it is cheating the AI by doing so.

I am trying to be positive and see this as a challenge... war ends in 1946 so I hope I have time to rectify my mistakes.


You literally have years. Just know that now, you can't fight the IJN if it shows up in bulk until at least summer of 1943. That doesn't mean you have to sit on your hands, though. There's plenty that you can do to nibble (even bite) around the edges.



catwhoorg -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 5:45:42 PM)

Once the Essexes come on line, you will more than enough.

Take lessons in caution and move forward slowly. Island hopping if you have to, to get land air coverage.



VukyTzar -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 6:19:46 PM)

Well I am in 21st january 1942 and have lost none, I did managed to sink lexington and saratoga. As japan player I can advise you to pull back and fortify Oz and try to lure enemy KB in your bombets naval attack range... Banshees are almost useless bud hudsons and B17 may do the work... Dont give up[:-]this is good test to see what you can do wizh cripled forces



SuluSea -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 6:41:16 PM)

Hi, You've lost nothing you can't overcome. You'll be getting tons upon tons of new toys soon. Your Essex, Fletchers, attack landing craft and infantry upgrades will carry the day eventually.

Use the orphaned air groups from the sunk carriers to assist in putting your naval air training in overdrive.






Lokasenna -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 6:48:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Hi, You've lost nothing you can't overcome. You'll be getting tons upon tons of new toys soon. Your Essex, Fletchers, attack landing craft and infantry upgrades will carry the day eventually.

Use the orphaned air groups from the sunk carriers to assist in putting your naval air training in overdrive.




This is a true silver lining. The USN doesn't have much for on-map pilot training capability.



John B. -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 7:56:57 PM)

If the IJN has lost 3 CVs then I don't think you have lost a decisive battle. Remember that by the end of the Guadalcanal battles the IJN had lost 4 CVs and 1 CVL (doing this from memory so I may be a little off) and the USN had lost 4 CVs and the Brits a CVL (the Hermes). In other words, you're at one more -- really 1/2 more since it's a Brit CV -- and the IJN is at one less loss than where things stood historically. With the flood of new production you get this is not a a catastrophe.



GetAssista -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 8:10:39 PM)

SCLS (sudden carrier loss syndrome) is a serious condition that can develop while using this game. Unpredictable and violent, it can make your life miserable for days. No known treatment exists, infected person should endure and hopefully develop natural resistance. Drink liquids, get lots of fresh air and cuddles from your family and loved ones.
It mostly strikes Japan players though.



DeZanic -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 8:38:19 PM)

Haha hey thanks guys for chearing me up. I'll try to nibble a little on the edges of the Japanese Empire and start drinking.



Macclan5 -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 8:45:19 PM)

Put in perspective you are not really much better or worse off than the Allies were at the very same stage of the war!
They lost Lex - Yorktown - Sara was laid up - and Hornet was also lost. Hermes was sunk by IJN Indian Ocean raid if I recall correctly.
You now have 'historical parity'



Macclan5 -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/14/2016 8:49:29 PM)

Note: I too am playing a no reload challenge as a relative newbie. Through luck chance perseverance I am doing well I think.
However even I broke my own imposed no reload rule twice now due to stupid omissions of orders I wanted.
At the end of th day it's supposed to be a 'fun game' so play it as such. Continue to play because you want to learn innovative tactics to win - or not.[8D]
There is little value in continuing to "grind out a win" if your heart is not in it. However this is lots of valuable lessons you will learn (before me and others it seems) about the tactics and strategies of this game.
Best wishes. Enjoy



TOMLABEL -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 1:06:18 AM)

Been there and have done that (and worse) more than you want to know.

You still have the Lex and the Yorktown - two fabulous carriers, so take care of them.

Like others have said, nibble away and don't expose them to danger. Help from USA is on the way!

TOMLABEL



crsutton -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 5:20:59 AM)

You have traded six for four. Congratulations you are winning the game...Carry on.



wdolson -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 6:49:19 AM)

You're doing a little worse than reality, but not by much. The US ended 1942 with 4 of 6 at start carriers sunk and the Enterprise badly damaged. The Enterprise spent most of 1943 being repaired. The Japanese were down 4 CVs and 2 CVLs for 1942 and ended the year with 1 of the remaining two badly damaged. Neither side was really ready for any carrier battles until late 1943 when the Essexes and Independences started to arrive. Even at that the US only raided with the carriers in late 43 to work up the crews and get them ready for combat.

1943 saw the reconquest of the Solomons and the march of the north coast of New Guinea because those campaigns could be pulled off with ground based air and without carriers.

You lost one more British carrier than they did historically, but that's not going to tip the balance of power in any significant way.

Bill



Yaab -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 8:26:17 AM)

I guess you could suppress Rabaul by auto-sinking four USN carriers in Rabaul's bay and forming an impenetrable artficial reef there. Just a thought.



nashvillen -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 3:26:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have traded six for four. Congratulations you are winning the game...Carry on.

^^ What he said!

In a 3x2 game that is into late 1942 and we have decimated each other's carrier forces. That is a win for the allies, although they can't do much without LBA covering until the shiny new stuff comes out in the middle of 1943.



nashvillen -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/15/2016 3:27:32 PM)

Of course, the IJN FanBoy in me is happy if I can sink that many without losing more than one CVL...



PaxMondo -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/16/2016 4:25:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

You have traded six for four. Congratulations you are winning the game...Carry on.

+1

Especially if any of the 4 are from Akagi, Kaga, Shok, Zuik, or Hiryu. The IJ gets only one CV with capacity over 70 after game start ...



DeZanic -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/17/2016 4:19:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


You lost one more British carrier than they did historically, but that's not going to tip the balance of power in any significant way.

Bill


Yeah the Saratoga, Enterprise and Formidable were lost because I forgot to give them orders to withdraw and stayed in dangerous waters for too long. I guess admirals and generals have forgotten about their deployed units in the field and forgot about them :-P

But yeah no reload.. regardless. Keep calm and carry (hehe) on.



SheperdN7 -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/19/2016 12:09:02 AM)

I just want to say that I extremely admire that you won't restart against the AI. In my games against the AI I have restarted only once or twice and that was because they were the first games I had played and I vowed since day 1 to NEVER reload. Since then, its April of '42 and entire KB is still kicking... I call that a good campaign so far for noobish me[:D] But I will admit right now that facing the AI and playing a PBEM are two different beasts entirely. The AI sometimes does a really cool thing that I never thought it would do (for me it was raiding convoys north of the home islands and doing a port attack on Truk in early '42) but playing against a human is so much more challenging and unpredictable.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (5/24/2016 8:49:37 AM)

Once in a while you might want to save the game, reload, try something different, and then go back to the original save once you're done experimenting. That way you'll learn better tactics.

Cheers,
CC



Alpha77 -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (6/8/2016 12:57:25 PM)

I only once reloaded an AI turn.... this was because a huge SF fleet with 2 BBs, 5-6 cruisers and a dozen DDs "reacted" into the Soerabaya hex....half of the fleet was sunk by mines and coast guns. Seems not singel ship escaped without any damage. Guess that was a bit "over the top" Firstly I did not know they would react this way and did not want them to do this and b) The mines and a not to great amount of coast guns seemed to be way to deadly compared to reality...


@ OP: can you describe the battles a bit how you lost those ships to the AI ? It seems it concetrated a lot of stuff and did good strikes then?



wneumann -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (6/9/2016 3:01:03 PM)

quote:


Use the orphaned air groups from the sunk carriers to assist in putting your naval air training in overdrive.

+1. You never have enough pilot training squadrons or trained pilots. Until you don't need more trained pilots, you don't have enough of them.



Macclan5 -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (6/9/2016 6:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wneumann

quote:


Use the orphaned air groups from the sunk carriers to assist in putting your naval air training in overdrive.

+1. You never have enough pilot training squadrons or trained pilots. Until you don't need more trained pilots, you don't have enough of them.



Reloads vs the AI seems to a common theme in this thread now...

As BBF esquire adroitly pointed out you can re-load at any time without hurting its feelings; PBEM human partners of course have different opinions.

--

I would argue that the spirit of a 'no reload challenge' is clearly a harder game because simply you must remain focused on the tactical details as CINCPAC; it makes it harder to recover from mistakes or the mistakes may delays plans.

"No reload challenge" is a very simple method to give the AI the benefit of a slight edge given it must think in linear terms; Is condition XX fulfilled Y/N then if Y = this action then if N = this action.

At the end of the day "No Re-Load challenges" really comes down to "your own house rules":

1) Pure no re-load no matter what

2) Reload due to omission of orders that had no bearing on the results ... i.e. that is I reloaded because I intended to get a CVE TF supporting supply ships TF on route to Suva and there was no impact in any combat missions with any of these ships... its simple over site.

3) Reload due to omission of order that had bearing on results of combat. i.e. I intended this LBA sq to provide LRCAP forgot to order it up. Changes results i.e. damage to ships.

--

After reading the manual, reading the newbie FAQ, reading a number of AARs and playing the tutorials... in my first GC I intended to select #1..

I thought it was the best approach to get a fair historical result and the damned consequences were on me.

I ended up playing #2.

Some players may choose #3.

Simply its a game and a hobby; I realized that striving to be perfect is not required unless <my / your> OCD shines through [8D]

'Grinding through' a self imposed house rule would have built up inside of me till I scrapped the game and re-started.

I would have never progressed - I would have been in perpetual re-start mode because I didn't 'optimize' my moves.

Perhaps that is what causes a lot of new players to drop out or loose traction in this game??

It is a long game full of patience and my personal OCD is tested every turn I fire up....

<<thanks to the regulars here - you can find so many tidbits of wisdom. The Naval Pilot training suggestion above is another way to optimize your results which appeals to the OCD behavior in me....but I would have never thought of myself >>



BBfanboy -> RE: Loss of 6 carriers. Help on moving on? (6/9/2016 9:31:57 PM)

There is a fourth reason to consider reloads - you intended to learn something by giving a particular set of orders and you wanted to test an alternate set of orders. The idea is not to keep the best outcome, but to learn how the game works in all its wonderful complexity. I have been at it for years and still find things to experiment with. e.g. I worked out that Chinese troops need a 10:1 raw AV advantage over Japanese infantry to have any chance of success. If the terrain or forts favour the Japanese, an even higher ratio is needed. If the Japanese have tanks and the Chinese have no A/T guns - fuggeddabouttit.



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