RE: Game Suggestions (Full Version)

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vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 6:46:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cf_dallas


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

And a bit more. Within this same game I just posted, I changed patrol zone to persecution zone, CAP responded to MIG-21s, then responded to Flagons (northeast). I change patrol zone back to single reference and CAP didn't respond to identified (not bogey) Flagons within persecution zone. I change patrol zone back to persecution zone reference points and CAP responded again. So there's definitely something going on with the persecution zone logic.


Based on the screen grabs I suspect you missed the manual line Wood hilighted.

You have to set up a patrol box (or a line, or a single point), then set a box for the prosecution area, AND you have to check "Investigate Contacts Outside Patrol Area." That tells your patrol "go to this location and loiter, then if contacts come within your area of responsibility, investigate."

I very much doubt you've found a logic or programming flaw, unless your copy of the game is very different from mine. It's worked very well for setting up literally hundreds of missions for me. And for dozens of other players.


Ahhhh....that's it then. I thought of persecution zone as it's own entity. Assign it and go, separate from Patrol zone. The investigate has to be clicked in order for the persecution zone to come into play. Even though reading the above makes better sense, I was thinking that investigate would ignore both zones. So now, if I investigate AND I have a persecution zone, I need to drag that zone or create a new one for other contacts.





vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 6:49:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
My experience so far is that the game in some ways is very smart and enables me to simply put my assets in the right locations at the right time, so I feel like I'm in charge of an operation. Then the game gets not so smart and I'm having to get involved in manual control of many little aspects.

.....like real-life commanders.

CMANO is not chess. One of our goals, from the get go, was to accurately represent the semi-organized chaos that unfolds during even the most successful military operations of the post-WW2 period. Quite often the side who wins is the one who adapts on the fly and "plays speed chess" better (yes, even with near-textbook ops like the first days of Desert Storm). That's real life. That's CMANO.


I'm ok with that. The question comes down to the level of manual involvement. It's the reason I stopped playing the original Harpoon (long long time ago) and never bothered to buy the new Harpoon on Matrix.




ComDev -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 6:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cf_dallas


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

And a bit more. Within this same game I just posted, I changed patrol zone to persecution zone, CAP responded to MIG-21s, then responded to Flagons (northeast). I change patrol zone back to single reference and CAP didn't respond to identified (not bogey) Flagons within persecution zone. I change patrol zone back to persecution zone reference points and CAP responded again. So there's definitely something going on with the persecution zone logic.


Based on the screen grabs I suspect you missed the manual line Wood hilighted.

You have to set up a patrol box (or a line, or a single point), then set a box for the prosecution area, AND you have to check "Investigate Contacts Outside Patrol Area." That tells your patrol "go to this location and loiter, then if contacts come within your area of responsibility, investigate."

I very much doubt you've found a logic or programming flaw, unless your copy of the game is very different from mine. It's worked very well for setting up literally hundreds of missions for me. And for dozens of other players.


Yeah had a look too, since I'm the last guy to fiddle with this part of the AI/Mission code. It works exactly as designed, ref cf_dallas's post [8D]

Oh and yeah, Rule #1 around here is to never post a bug report without a savegame. Not doing so will very easily get you tagged as a troublemaker, not a problem solver. We're an active developer who hang around in our support forum and interact with our players. There aren't very many such developers around. As such, our forum rules are also different from what you're probably used to elsewhere, and we do not tolerate certain behaviour, ref Mike's posts.

Posting a savegame in your first post, starting with small scenarios, reading the manual, and reading all of thewood's explanation would have saved this thread from going haywire.




vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 9:39:04 PM)

Honestly, this forum feels a bit hostile. I've read through quite a few posts now, and there's definitely some defensiveness, though I don't know why. It's a good game. If the developers do not have time to answer, let the users answer. The users answered my questions. The developers didn't even need to get involved.

I've already received PMs from others since I started this thread about how people are treated on this forum. That's not something you should be proud of. There's no such thing as a dumb question and this is coming from someone who has been in business side of software for 30 years now. Kill them with kindness. It's a good motto to learn.

I do thank everyone for their answers.




ComDev -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 10:01:24 PM)

Thanks, noted [8D]

Work on Command 1.12 is already underway, and I'm diving back in. Think you'll like [:)]




Rudd -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 11:03:48 PM)

You're right I guess, there are no dumb questions.

The problem is, you didn't ask any questions in the first post, you just were saying here's a bunch of issues with the game, that aren't really issues.

That's what irritates some of us, we may reply in not such a pc way so the devs don't have to repeat themselves over and over. Stay on here for a while and you'll see what I mean.






mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/2/2016 11:39:21 PM)

Jeebus how dramatic. Seems we've been invaded by a bunch of mean ones. How will we survive?

Answer: Focus on who and what's important!

Mike





mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 12:21:14 AM)

By the way has anybody found forum utopia yet? I hear it's a wonderful place for exactly one person.

Mike




USSInchon -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 2:01:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Jeebus how dramatic. Seems we've been invaded by a bunch of mean ones. How will we survive?

Answer: Focus on who and what's important!

Mike




So, Mike is important then?




mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 2:08:42 AM)

No devs need to focus on folks interested in the game and not poster's screwing around on the forum or trying to troll the devs.

Mike




USSInchon -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 3:26:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

No devs need to focus on folks interested in the game and not poster's screwing around on the forum or trying to troll the devs.

Mike

Sorry, it was poor attempt at humor.




mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 3:35:42 AM)

No worries[:)]




vicberg -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 5:53:39 AM)

Ok, tried playing nice.

Game has been deleted. Not enough information on what's going on under the hood and no desire to get answers from this forum

1) The Persecution section in the manual is buried within pages 137-164 of the Addendum to the rules. The addendum is organized more like a set of patch notes rather than instructional information. You obviously didn't have time or interest in incorporating into the manual but you certainly expect others to spend hours wading through 27 pages of patch notes to find a critical piece of information.
2) The inability to escort early warning or a SEAD patrol is a design gap
3) Patrols in general are a mess because there's not enough understanding of what the AI is going to do on Patrol. There's nothing stated in the manual or within the plane/weapon in-game descriptions what the target prioritization or best use. This is especially true for SEAD patrols and based on loadout of a plane or varied loadouts including cluster bombs, etc.,.will the AI use cluster bombs to hard kill a SAM of on SEAD? No idea. But certainly not interested in asking on this forum.
4) WRA is too generic. Should be more tailored for the mission type
5) Not only is WRA generic, interface is clunky at best, almost impossible for a large scenario at a global level and time consuming on a mission by mission basis.
6) Your information about planes and weapons is haphazardly presented. Sometimes a picture and full explanation and purpose/role of the plane or weapon, sometimes just a data dump. There's little to no explanation of key terminology or acronyms, unless I google it. Little explanation about key information concerning best use of weapon and no idea if AI is going to use that weapon in best role or even how to configure WRA in order to use it in best role
7) I'm guessing your target market is people who've been in the Air Force and/or Navy or otherwise are military technology enthusiasts. Forget everyone else right? I've got a better idea. Ridicule! Another idea. Label as trouble maker if you don't like what you read. That's smart
8) Game doesn't scale to large battles because of the degree of manual involvement. Harpoon had same issue and for same issue, removed it.

In summary, you haven't figured out what you want to be when you grow up. A CinC type game or a detailed hands on WITP type game. You've mixed both and thrown in real time on top of it, so it's a mish mash of all worlds. Was going to play nice to try to help, but after this, no thank you. The degree of professionalism from some of those involved in it's development is lacking at best.

Good luck.




Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 7:50:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I've already received PMs from others since I started this thread about how people are treated on this forum.


It's not news to us that there are people here more interested in forum drama than playing the game and helping others.




Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 7:50:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudd

You're right I guess, there are no dumb questions.

The problem is, you didn't ask any questions in the first post, you just were saying here's a bunch of issues with the game, that aren't really issues.

That's what irritates some of us, we may reply in not such a pc way so the devs don't have to repeat themselves over and over. Stay on here for a while and you'll see what I mean.


This.




Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 7:55:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
By the way has anybody found forum utopia yet? I hear it's a wonderful place for exactly one person.

Mike


It's funny though. No one who's actually in the trenches of developing wargames/sims has ever criticized us of being "rude", "unprofessional" or whatever is the chestnut accusation of this week. Likewise, no-one who's doing any serious forum moderation has ever told us we're doing it wrong. And I hardly think it's because they're afraid of retribution.

Dunning-Kruger much? [:)]




Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 8:23:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Ok, tried playing nice.

Game has been deleted. Not enough information on what's going on under the hood and no desire to get answers from this forum


If it fits your narrative, sure.

quote:


1) The Persecution section in the manual is buried within pages 137-164 of the Addendum to the rules. The addendum is organized more like a set of patch notes rather than instructional information. You obviously didn't have time or interest in incorporating into the manual but you certainly expect others to spend hours wading through 27 pages of patch notes to find a critical piece of information.


How dare we expect users to read and be informed about the stuff we're adding/improving.

quote:


2) The inability to escort early warning or a SEAD patrol is a design gap


The inability to understand design priorities is a PEBKAC.

quote:


3) Patrols in general are a mess because there's not enough understanding of what the AI is going to do on Patrol. There's nothing stated in the manual or within the plane/weapon in-game descriptions what the target prioritization or best use. This is especially true for SEAD patrols and based on loadout of a plane or varied loadouts including cluster bombs, etc.,.will the AI use cluster bombs to hard kill a SAM of on SEAD? No idea. But certainly not interested in asking on this forum.


There are a million different things that can happen in a patrol based on the combination of tasked assets, their platform capabilities, opposition and other factors (weather etc.). If you expect a "here's what's going to happen" documentation for each possible combination then you clearly don't get the scope.

quote:


4) WRA is too generic. Should be more tailored for the mission type

Who will pay for that? Oh wait we should do everything in free updates.

quote:


5) Not only is WRA generic, interface is clunky at best, almost impossible for a large scenario at a global level and time consuming on a mission by mission basis.

Given that most users find the WRA interface suitable for their needs, this comment speaks more about you than the game.

quote:


6) Your information about planes and weapons is haphazardly presented. Sometimes a picture and full explanation and purpose/role of the plane or weapon, sometimes just a data dump.

How dare we not include information obtainable through a 30-sec Google search, and which will inevitably be stale if stored on the game whereas when externally queried it always remains currents. And of course photos (which have to be paid for handsomely unless we want to become every copyright vulture's plaything) for every single platform.

quote:


There's little to no explanation of key terminology or acronyms, unless I google it. Little explanation about key information concerning best use of weapon and no idea if AI is going to use that weapon in best role or even how to configure WRA in order to use it in best role

"You're not spoonfeeding me enough!"

quote:


7) I'm guessing your target market is people who've been in the Air Force and/or Navy or otherwise are military technology enthusiasts. Forget everyone else right? I've got a better idea. Ridicule! Another idea. Label as trouble maker if you don't like what you read. That's smart

Our target audience is smart, respectful and no-nonsense people. Your confusion is understandable though.

quote:


8) Game doesn't scale to large battles because of the degree of manual involvement. Harpoon had same issue and for same issue, removed it.

It scales just fine if you let go of the need to micromanage everything. Chuck Horner was not checking the fuel state of every F-16 over Iraq and neither should you. We understand this is not possible for everyone though. Many users stick to small/medium-scale scenarios and are just happy.

quote:


In summary, you haven't figured out what you want to be when you grow up.

Condescending know-it-alls? We may face some stiff competition on that path. Better find something else.

quote:


A CinC type game or a detailed hands on WITP type game. You've mixed both and thrown in real time on top of it, so it's a mish mash of all worlds.

Or the best of both worlds, as our tens of thousands of happy customers (plus pro users) attest.

quote:


Was going to play nice to try to help, but after this, no thank you. The degree of professionalism from some of those involved in it's development is lacking at best.

Having lost the argument, you can always bring out the "professionalism" staple. Never saw _that_ coming.

quote:


Good luck.

Take care.




thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 11:05:34 AM)

"I'm not very smart and I'll admit that, but I did play GDW Air Superiority and Air Strike so I have an understanding of the overall mechanics. For 2010 technologies, not so much."

This quote from Mr. vic says it all. This is a perfect textbook case of a troll. There is no way a real player is going to come in and talk like this or say the other things he said. He is either not very smart or had a non-game goal in mind when he set out. There was a lot of effort expended to help him and he basically said he wouldn't do anything to learn the game. That is just not a normal person.




mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 12:04:53 PM)

I understand his frustration with lots of people not agreeing with him. I think we've seen it before[:)]

Filtered the noise out and just grabbed what was useful for us to look at.

Mike




mikmykWS -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 12:05:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I've already received PMs from others since I started this thread about how people are treated on this forum.


It's not news to us that there are people here more interested in forum drama than playing the game and helping others.



Ever seen the movie Mean Girls?

Mike




Kitchens Sink -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 12:17:24 PM)

I've had this simulation for over 2 years, and it took me 4 months of screen-time before I felt smart enough to even ask a question on the forum. Most of the questions I would have asked were answered by just reading the manual, playing the simulation, and experimenting.

THIS GUY comes in after a few days of playing with a long laundry list of "non-issues" and says he's gonna help y'all. Then he deletes the game and says bye-bye when there is some pushback on the forum.

[8|]





USSInchon -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 1:33:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitchens Sink

I've had this simulation for over 2 years, and it took me 4 months of screen-time before I felt smart enough to even ask a question on the forum. Most of the questions I would have asked were answered by just reading the manual, playing the simulation, and experimenting.

THIS GUY comes in after a few days of playing with a long laundry list of "non-issues" and says he's gonna help y'all. Then he deletes the game and says bye-bye when there is some pushback on the forum.

[8|]




^^This. I have been lurking in the forums for years before I finally had the funds to purchase on Steam when it was on sale. I have loved this genre of game since the early days of Harpoon. This game is deep, it will take years to understand how things work, and how to get them to do what you want. I applaud the devs for making such an in depth simulation rather than just a contemporary version of Command and Conquer with fancy visuals but no depth. It is intimidating for most, but for those that will give it a go, there are great rewards.




MarkShot -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 2:41:38 PM)

I didn't play much HC/H3/ANW. However, I see big improvements in this game both in terms of the game and technology.

There is one area of the UI which should be changed. Windows only come to the foreground when they are first opened. If they are open already and hidden, then hitting then appropriate key or menu option does nothing. They should always come to the foreground. I am using two monitors and the absence of this greatly negates the secondary monitor and free floating windows.

Thanks!




thewood1 -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 2:54:09 PM)

Probably best to put that in the request thread, not buried in this one.




stilesw -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 5:09:58 PM)

Thank the Powers That Be! Another forum troll dispatched, no longer (hopefully) to antagonize and frustrate the dedicated CMANO development staff, followers and satisfied users!




StellarRat -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 6:35:15 PM)

I hardly think that you should gloat about this like it's a victory of some kind.




Dimitris -> RE: Game Suggestions (6/3/2016 7:10:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

I didn't play much HC/H3/ANW. However, I see big improvements in this game both in terms of the game and technology.

There is one area of the UI which should be changed. Windows only come to the foreground when they are first opened. If they are open already and hidden, then hitting then appropriate key or menu option does nothing. They should always come to the foreground. I am using two monitors and the absence of this greatly negates the secondary monitor and free floating windows.

Thanks!


If you can open a new thread for this on the Tech Support forum and provide a step-by-step it would be great. (UI issues are very hard to reproduce without precise retrace of the steps).

Thanks.




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