|
Veldor -> (4/20/2003 2:04:53 PM)
|
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
[B]Veldor, trying to impress grognards with your prog-talk? Sure it's likely you can get away with it but there are some of us who do understand you and you make an *** out of yourself. Less marketing hype and more good reasons would remedy the situation but I guess you like we all are too lazy to look up for facts before spewing out baseless accusations to support your view. Some newbie Java programmer displaced you or where's the angst coming from?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I made very few programming related remarks before a bunch of programmers joined this thread. As now there are at least 4 programmers contributing to it it is not an out of place thread. The "grognards" can read another thread if they don't like or follow this one. More-over I have been continuing the original topic in a parallel fashion here.
I am not too lazy to look up facts. This is hardly a high level debate we have been having. In fact, if any one thing does upset me right now, its that I could argue the JAVA side better than anyone else has. Stating LINUX support is hardly the "gem" of the Java language. But my take on the thread was never that debating JAVA was this threads prime purpose. Nor did I ever say that Java doesnt have its place. Nor did I even say it should never be used for games. All I ever stated was it is not the "DESIRED" preferred choice for commercial games.
---
[QUOTE][B]
Even though I agree with you on that C++ has more merits than Java you have not yet even come close to my reasons. In fact your so called reasons are quite irrelevant.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm glad we agree. As stated before this thread is not an attempt to build some case against Java and for C++. As for my reasons being irrelevant, unless I'm forgetting something the only reason I ever even gave was that it was the "preferred choice" for games. Certainly a generic statement and as you already pointed out, this is not a software development forum so I have not qualified the specifics further nor do I see a need too. Since you agree with me, go ahead and spell out why if you feel I haven't done a good enough job at it.
[QUOTE][B]
Getting the product done is the biggest problem, no matter what language. What does it matter in the end if the product works? I have observed that many hobbyists go for Java so it must be easier to get into programming with Java than with C++. I have also experienced that somewhat myself. Productivity is better for some types of applications. C++ is not an easy language.
[/B][/QUOTE]
No doubt the debate got sidetracked by a comment on JAVA. I do believe VASL is a great program and really all I mean (as ive stated now 10 times but everyone seems to ignore) is that id RATHER see VASL expanded and have all these new features than some seperate effort that borrows all the VASL graphics. And that if that isnt or cant happen that I'd rather see a FULL authorized commercial like product to replace VASL.
[QUOTE][B]
AI has little to do with the language. You are true in that many games neglect AI but that's the way business world has worked in this case.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Depends, thats why I asked about methodology and sources. More AI has been done both in the business world and in game with C++. Anyone who says they don't "borrow code" is a flat out liar and I will not even debate the issue. It's simple fact. Just like no programmer "knows" all the syntax for the language he/she is using (or even 50%) without looking up a lot of things. That means its going to be more difficult to write a good AI in something else. No not impossible, No not necessarily with a worse end result. But more difficult yes, in my own opinion, which I am intitled to have on a forum.
[QUOTE][B]
Business world is using a lot of Java succesfully, don't you agree? However, saying all of X uses Y does not make Y any better. It's more an indication of business realities. The best solution does not always win (and C++ isn't always the best either).
[/B][/QUOTE]
The Business world uses mostly VB, Access, SQL and the like as that is what is most pertinent to the form/data based needs of most organizations. Java is used there yes, though you will not find many organizations that dont use VB,Access, or SQL but you will find many that dont use Java.
[QUOTE][B]
Many games use some kind of scripting language for most code. Performance is not the problem and I'm sure I bore you if I quote the 80-20 rule or state that for most code performance doesn't matter and you can very well optimize just the code where it matters.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There is no right answer here. But I will say that DirectX offers so many simple "effects", "manipulations", and overall "bells and whistles" not too mention simplicity in network game programming etc that while absolutely a lower priority than a good base game, certainly does help the game "look" better and more professional, and aside from all that many of those tools simply provide more interface options or more playing options (such as DirectPlay). DirectX and such are not "JUST" about performance.
[QUOTE][B]
MFC is good? Please. I'm no expert in it having only worked on a couple applications with it years ago but what I've seen and done does not convince me. In fact I find MFC a terrible antique library I wouldn't touch without significant compensation. AWT/Swing might not be as fast but that's not the issue for these types of games. Try GTK, wxWindows or what's better Qt for some other perspectives. Those are even free (Qt for Windows not) and portable. Oh and btw. I'm not satisfied with any one of those so I'm writing my own user interface library but many would call me crazy and most do not have the luxury.
[/B][/QUOTE]
It continues to evolve, and as already pointed out, is one of the best documented libraries out there. It is also widely used, not in gaming but in the business world. The newest versions of MS Visual C++ do a wonderful job at implementing it and in "writing the code" for you for much of what MFC is useful for. I don't wish to start yet another debate on MS Visual C++ vs others or MFC vs whatever, but as you well know MFC is widely used. No it doesnt make it better than xyz, but it DOES mean there are more code references, examples, documentation, peer support, professional level classes, and on and on which in the end helps a whole lot more in getting your program done, which as you already said is what is most important after all anyway.
[QUOTE][B]
Wouldn't you rather have the (you say) few Mac and Linux people be able to use your product too than leaving them out in the cold? Despite my handle I'm primarily a Linux user nowadays (in fact never been a Mac user). Java is very portable. C++ with SDL/OpenGL and the GUI libraries I mentioned is too. MFC and DirectX are not.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yep. They are well accustomed to that stance already. If supporting a half dozen Mac and Linux potentials means sacrificing higher productivity options, absolutely. You have a Linux machine great. But are you actually going to try to tell me that you don't also have a Windows machine or at least dual boot the linux pc?
[QUOTE][B]
VB is not really a higher level language. It doesn't offer any useful constructs C++ doesn't have. It just doesn't enable you to do low level programming like in C++.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Trust me, the statement I made about VB being a higher level language was not meant in any way as a compliment for it. VB is great for form building and simple business apps in front of access or sql etc. Thats about it. I would rarely use it anywhere else. But you can find that statement in many books on the topic. Simply because the "language" of VB is a bit more English like whereas C++ is a bit more "cryptic".
[QUOTE][B]
Your idea of JASL and VASL somehow eating each other or doing some other harm seems funny to me. Copyright must be respected but having two or more similar programs isn't always a problem but a Good Thing(tm). An application doesn't have to be complete or commercial quality to be fun to its creator and others. Many such projects are commercially unfeasible. I wouldn't talk about fragmenting the few users but reaching a wider audience instead. Sometimes diversity however is bad like you say but the chess analogy was nice :).
[/B][/QUOTE]
You agree or disagree? Most of your post is taking both sides at the same time yet also neither. I agree that sometimes diversity is good, but supposedly its already been established that ASL players arent generally the most technically advanced. One PC product is plenty for them to learn, install, and be good at. Two can only make things more complicated, and Three gets to be insane. Since VASL and JASL both use the same graphics and both use the same development language, it is THAT that I find funny. When it just could be a collaboritive effort like VASL has always been since day one.
And the copyright issue has not been dealt with. It is a clear violation though that certainly doesn't mean MMP or Hasbro will ever do anything about it.
[QUOTE][B]
Maybe you spoke hastily in the beginning and are now slowly agreeing or changing your mind and we can spend our time discussing something more productive. Hope you get results with your project, that's what everybody wants after all. And hope I didn't upset you too much because you also made some good points.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I haven't changed my mind that I would prefer one PC ASL product instead of two, or that if there are two that I'd prefer the second to be a fully approved near-to commercial quality version whether sold or not.
Your post is by far the most technical thus far so any further distraction from the seperate conversation you've only encouraged further.
I'm glad you see value and/or agree with some of the points I've made. But if you think we should switch to a slightly more productive angle on this talk, why don't you start that off yourself by telling everyone what you think we should be discussing...
[/B][/QUOTE]
|
|
|
|
