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larth -> (4/27/2003 5:09:40 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B].NET is the latest edition of C++ from Microsoft.
[/B][/QUOTE]

No, ".NET" is not a programming language as I think you should know.

Since you bring this up time after time: how does the .NET based C++ compare with standard C++, especially for people considering moving a large codebase, does it break existing code and can they use all the benefits of .NET?


[QUOTE][B]Perhaps you should get back to debate the original issue which wasn't which was better but that C++/DirectX is whats predominately used in the development of Commercial Games, by a landslide factor. Convince us all that it is really something else.[/B][/QUOTE]

Most commercial games are written in C++ / DirectX (if you say so, I haven't checked). I've never contradicted this, I only stated that just because it is not common yet to write games in Java it doesn't mean it cannot be done.

Actually, your original issues were - roughly in order of appearance :

1) legal matters

2) complaining on MMP (but this was more like you whining, perhaps OT and related to your Up Front project)

3) Why supporting JASL when there is VASL already? ("... I do not feel supporting yet another crappy JAVA version of ASL is good for the hobby")

4) JASL competing with VASL (not really as you know now).

Leaving out other stuff here, since I entered the thread I believe you have been all around the block no with "why-nots" to JASL in general and Java in particular.

I addressed your concern that C++ and DirectX would be required, and you still haven't made an argument why 80 frames per second would be required, but have promoted MS at every opportunity instead. So, please tell me, which aspect of an ASL playing program requires that kind of real-time video capability?

/Lars



larth -> (4/27/2003 5:31:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
[B][B]Veldor[/B]

I get the feeling you don't want to discuss the pros/cons of programming languages for various purposes but want to draw this discussion into corporate MS vs. the rest of the world -war. That's ok, I'll just shut up if you are not interested.

[B]larth[/B]
I don't agree with all of your Java remarks but had you listed some in your FAQ I'd been more pleased ;). You seem to be the all too common C-programmer doing C++ case ;).
[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, mac, shoot! :) Which don't you like? Just because Java is simple to [I]learn[/I] doesn't mean it is not powerful.


[QUOTE][B]
Let me just say that abstractions is what programming (or any kind of useful formal notation) is about and creating programming languages is possibly the most powerful abstraction method and templates promise some of that. If C++ didn't have templates I'd have lost my interest years ago. Templates make it possible to do a level of meta-programming. It may be like what object oriented programming is in C (i.e. not pretty) but it sure has its uses. The impression I have of the Java generics is that they are nowhere near as powerful but that's something I'm not terribly interested about.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Templates serve to abstract programming technical issues. Abstracting code issues means that as a programmer you can concentrate on [I]what[/I] you are trying to achieve with the program. So do libraries IMO and I think we can agree on that Java has a huge advantage in the standard libraries that come with it, for examples for collections, networking, threads, regexp (since 1.4) and so on [1]. This was the biggest cause for me not to proceed in C (which was my fav language for many years), namely that I had to spend so much time on how to implement program structures and game mechanisms in C. C++ alleviated that a lot, but still had to much IMO.

see you,
Lars

[1] http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/index.html (scroll down to the picture)



Peterk1 -> (5/4/2003 6:38:50 AM)

It's a bit of a shame that this thread has degenerated into bickering over which programming language is better rather than encouraging an effort to bring a much beloved wargame to the computer.

Regarding Java and other programming languages:

I have been a programmer for 10 years or so...my experience ranges from doing apps for the medical research field, television on-air 3-D graphics (animated scoreboards for ESPN sports and graphics for CNN and Fox news shows) and the electrical power industry (I have worked on energy control systems controlling electricity running through New York City, Boston, Melbourne and Brisbane Australlia, Iceland and Thailand among others). I have worked in Visual Basic, C++, and most lately Java.

I used to be a "Java sucks" person myself but it has matured incredibly in the last 2 years or so.

Other than perhaps execution speed and the inconvenience of not being in total control of the machine's memory, there really is no compelling reason to say that Java is less mature or inferior to any of the other languages. In fact, overall, I would have to say that I have personally found VB far more cumbersome and difficult to deal with in a large app than anything written in C/C++ or Java.

Thailand and Boston will very soon have their electrical systems being almost entirely controlled by Java applications which will be deployed by my group in coming months. These are large multi-million dollar projects and the software is industrial strength and pretty much iron-tight. The electrical industry is a very difficult customer, because basically a bug may very easily equate to an electrical worker on the job getting killed. Thus far, we have passed initial customer testing with far less bugs and issues than when we provided similar apps in the past written in C/C++.

Saying that Java is not suitable for games when it is already being used for things which are much more serious is just ridiculous.



Veldor -> (5/4/2003 12:22:25 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peterk1
[B]It's a bit of a shame that this thread has degenerated into bickering over which programming language is better rather than encouraging an effort to bring a much beloved wargame to the computer. [/B][/QUOTE]

Pretty much why I abandoned the thread and stopped responding to comments.

[QUOTE][B]
I used to be a "Java sucks" person
[/B][/QUOTE]
Since that is quoting something I said let me rephrase it. "Java sucks for games". Its plenty fine if not even better for other purposes. But we were talking about games here, at least initially.

[QUOTE][B]
Thus far, we have passed initial customer testing with far less bugs and issues than when we provided similar apps in the past written in C/C++.
[/B][/QUOTE]
No offense meant but irrelevant. I have many examples within US Fortune 500/1000 of the exact opposite as well as that. Some of that depends on the skills and experience of the individual programmers, perhaps the project management, and most importantly the specific app, its requirements and so forth.

[QUOTE][B]
Saying that Java is not suitable for games when it is already being used for things which are much more serious is just ridiculous. [/B][/QUOTE]
You can make a game with Java. But the fact remains the majority of commercial games are developed with C++ and for DirectX. And for that matter with the PC platform specifically in mind over Linux or Mac. Sure there are commercial Java games and ones that also are made for Linux and/or Mac, but thats a pretty slim number in comparison.

Ironically you complain about how the thread diverted off topic but choose not to post about the original topic yourself.



larth -> (5/4/2003 6:53:09 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]Pretty much why I abandoned the thread and stopped responding to comments.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm, seemed more like you were not intrested in answering the questions.


[QUOTE][B]
Ironically you complain about how the thread diverted off topic but choose not to post about the original topic yourself.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Well, you took us there to start with.

To get back to computer ASL as an application let us ask this

1) Can computer ASL do something for ASL the boardgame?

a) I think so. Just look at the number of scenarios out there. For someone new to SL / ASL it must be huge to discover that there is such a wealth of gaming material available. A player (maybe even ex-SL player or a ex-ASL player) that gets hooked can be directed to the players list or clubs list where he can pick up face-to-face opponents and if he likes it can invest in the "real stuff".

b) Also assuming some kind of subscription on scenarios where a new scenarios is published and available online to registred users on a monthly basis may also mean that players check out the real ASL stuff.

c) JASL can easily serve as an introduction to ASL. Implementing programmed instructions as in Squad Leader is possible. Attempting to break the rules causes a rules reference to pop up. Or the rule text itself, if embedded.


Any opinions / ideas?

/Lars



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/4/2003 7:41:46 PM)

In the interest in opening the window and getting some fresh into the thread (and recognising Sarge has nothing intelligent to offer on Java or C++, because I would not be able to identify either hehe :) ).

I am wanting to know, in addition to supporting an electronic window to ASL (which has a price tag you just don't want to add up), I am wondering, if anyone thinks having a genuine downloadable demo has any merit.

By dowloadable demo, I am specifically referring to the demo that was done for Lock N Load.

http://www.locknloadgame.com/

Sure ASL basically requires the manual, Beyond Valour and Paratroop to get a "taste" of the game. But lets look at the price tag involved.
Manual 2nd edition copy new. $60 bucks US (approx, no price current, but this is the standard price for in stock primary modules there it seems).
Beyond Valour $60 bucks (same comment on price).
Paratroop $33 bucks US (same policy on price, this being for minor modules).

That means, just to "taste" ASL, you better have 153 bucks US handy, plus the cost of shipping (which out of the US for a product that I can let you know, is a good bit of weight in pounds), is hardly anyone's idea of an easy thing to arrange.

Add to this, the fact only Paratroop is currently in stock (logic would have me say, new items have priority on getting old items into sale).

Now in comparison, it takes a couple of minutes to download Lock n Load's demo, and then assuming you actually want to print out the items decently, and then cut out the items so that the materials amount to something, it will cost you maybe a bit of small change at a good printer, and a hour or so gluing to some card stock so you can actually enjoy the experience.

MMP would have to actually provide a credible map image, one they intend to give away. An assortment of test counters, some misc counters and a micro copy of the bare bones rules.

This would be simple enough to do. But I think it won't happen, until we step up and say, "hey, we want some downloadable tool to increase the ASL gaming crowd".

The demo would require at least a few hours on someone's part, and would have to initially begin as a physical real product (I am not interested in using imagery from computer images, because I want to sell real ASL not computerised copies).

Soooooooo, is there any support for getting MMP to take this notion seriously?



Peterk1 -> (5/4/2003 8:08:21 PM)

> Ironically you complain about how the thread diverted off topic > but choose not to post about the original topic yourself.

OK. Fair enough. I didn't comment on the game really because I felt that no-one new would really read it after 9 forum pages of tech-talk. If anyone who is an ASL player gets this far I whole-heartedly encourage them to try out JASL. It's a wonderful initiative and is an impressive start at finally converting the game to PC. It will be a wonderful learning tool when 100% done.



larth -> (5/4/2003 11:13:28 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I am wanting to know, in addition to supporting an electronic window to ASL (which has a price tag you just don't want to add up), I am wondering, if anyone thinks having a genuine downloadable demo has any merit.

By dowloadable demo, I am specifically referring to the demo that was done for Lock N Load.

http://www.locknloadgame.com/
[/B][/QUOTE]

I did a quick peek only; is this a computer game or a board game with a computer demo? The counter are looking good!

[QUOTE][B]
Sure ASL basically requires the manual, Beyond Valour and Paratroop to get a "taste" of the game. But lets look at the price tag involved.
Manual 2nd edition copy new. $60 bucks US (approx, no price current, but this is the standard price for in stock primary modules there it seems).
Beyond Valour $60 bucks (same comment on price).
Paratroop $33 bucks US (same policy on price, this being for minor modules).

That means, just to "taste" ASL, you better have 153 bucks US handy, plus the cost of shipping

[/B][/QUOTE]

One of the projects in the works is an Intro ASL that is to allow new players a taste of ASL without spending a lot of money. Check http://users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ/FAQ1.htm for a snippet on it (or google for more). See "[2.0] WHAT DO I NEED TO PLAY ASL?"

Does this do what you want except for it not being downloadable?

As for counter and map quality in JASL there is no technical reason why not real artwork can be used.

see you,
Lars



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/5/2003 12:04:41 AM)

Lock and Load is most assuredly a board game.

The demo is for graphics you download and the assumption is you will print them out and in the case of the counters, the image is specifically intended to be printed, mounted to card stock, and folded in half to get matching reverse side images.

They also have a VASL module out currently.

Have not encountered that FAQ link before though, so I am going to look at it more.



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 12:15:59 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B] A player (maybe even ex-SL player or a ex-ASL player) that gets hooked can be directed to the players list or clubs list where he can pick up face-to-face opponents and if he likes it can invest in the "real stuff".
[/B][/QUOTE]

So your saying JASL should be like the "demo" version of ASL the boardgame? I think that idea is a little silly. If I'd never played ASL the boardgame and played JASL and liked it.... The main thing I'd want is more JASL scenarios/modules/whatever not something a person like that would perceive as quite different altogether.

[QUOTE][B]b) Also assuming some kind of subscription on scenarios where a new scenarios is published and available online to registred users on a monthly basis may also mean that players check out the real ASL stuff.
[/B][/QUOTE]

If there is an electronic version you've bought there is little need for the real thing for many (youll probably buy just one or the other). No doubt any computer version of any board/cardgame will inspire some to checkout the things it was based on.. but to assume as much is assuming someone will pay money for the SAME THING twice and its usually hard enough to get them to pay it once. This question does imply some commercial nature to the game.

[QUOTE][B]
c) JASL can easily serve as an introduction to ASL. Implementing programmed instructions as in Squad Leader is possible. Attempting to break the rules causes a rules reference to pop up. Or the rule text itself, if embedded.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely awesome and just one little example of where a computer is better for such a complex game. Why put a boardgame on hold for 15 minutes while everyone tries to find the rule needed when the computer can do it for you. Unfortunately that area of inclusion or even support is highly illegal without MMP's direct support.



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 12:21:02 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Soooooooo, is there any support for getting MMP to take this notion seriously? [/B][/QUOTE]

I will make little attempt to speak for anyone else but myself, but I thought that was the stupidest idea ever thought up.

And even if it has merit for a simpler game I don't think its practical for a game like ASL. There are simply too many components needed even for the smallest of scenarios to cut it all out and paste it together yourself.

I think it would only hinder purchases as the complexity of just putting the game together would add to the already complex nature of learning it. And supposedly the FTF community is teaching new players.

Computers are excellent teaching tools and ASL would best be learned (and demoed) on a computer. However, as already stated, Id imagine those that fell in love with ASL at that point would really rather continue playing on the computer than switch back to cardboard and paper....



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/5/2003 1:52:45 AM)

Hmm well I am not sure it is widely held as a bad idea Veldor, or at least the response to Lock and Load doing it has been met positively by others myself included.

Myself, I continue to feel, that VASL JASL or any other venture will always be supportive, but never an alternative choice.

Sure ASL on the computer will have certain advantages, but in the end, I prefer the game on the table.
I think a table top demo has some merit myself. But currently none exists. That might just be a reflection of limited resources and not limited interest.

As for component overload, the game plays well in some scenarios, with a shockingly small counter force pool. And I guess I was not too clear, but I had figured the game would shy away from vehicles and other 5/8th counters for the demo, and stick to a Chapter A and B only arrangement.

Remember, I meant demo, not ASL Lite.



Peterk1 -> (5/5/2003 4:26:03 AM)

> I will make little attempt to speak for anyone else but myself,
> but I thought that was the stupidest idea ever thought up.

Maybe. But even so...it's already been done.
There is a doc out there that has everything someone needs to play guards counterattack.

[URL=http://www.vftt.co.uk/whatsasl.pdf]What Is ASL? PDF[/URL]

It contains a brief explanaton of the rules as well as some pages containing the maps, tables and counters required.

I couldn't ever see myself going through all the work to produce a mini-ASL this way, but I can see it being useful if I'm playing someone who already has all the stuff and I want to get a feel for it before actually sitting accross the table from them.

I see JASL's main advantage as providing an AI to play against. I still play a turn or 2 of Guards Counterattack at work during lunch from time to time. It may also replace VASL as the preferred means for PBEM or TCP/IP play - some aspects are already superior to what VASL does like tracking the phases, the UI that shows the contents of buildings floor by floor; the maps are already configured for the chosen scenario and the pieces ready selected.

What MMP will think of all of this - I have no idea. But the hobby is dying and they can't be as aggressive as they have been with their copyright as they have been in the past - the player-base is drying up and they have lost a VAST amount of players to games such as Combat Mission and to a lesser extent Steel Panthers. Avalon Hill tried twice unsuccesfully to commission exactly the program which Lars is writing (one became CM and the other became Close Combat), so Lars has a great chance of making something of it when it is done and delivers the prospect of a finished product to them.

Part of me actually hopes that it pushes ASL away from the model where one pays a great deal of money to obtain the scenarios. The CM and Steel Panthers communities have really set the tone here - user pays for the system ONCE and then can d/l a vast amount of scenarios and campaigns for free; with exceptional work (such as the Mega Campaign systems) having the possibility of going commercial. I think the current system of using magazines and modules as the delivery system for scenarios is bad - it pushes the cost of the system through the roof and makes it very difficult to get new players started and also results in large amounts of the system going out of print never to be seen again.



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 4:55:24 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peterk1
[B]Maybe. But even so...it's already been done.
There is a doc out there that has everything someone needs to play guards counterattack.
[/B][/QUOTE]
So the question would best be posed to the author as to how many people have emailed him saying "Thanks I never knew how great ASL might be until I downloaded your PDF spent hours glueing it all together and then had a blast playing it by myself!" I would argue that anyone with interest in playing ASL "OFF" the computer already knows someone who has ASL or plays ASL. Anyone else is going to be just as short on opponents to play as they are components to play with.

[QUOTE][B]
It may also replace VASL as the preferred means for PBEM or TCP/IP play - some aspects are already superior to what VASL does like tracking the phases, the UI that shows the contents of buildings floor by floor; the maps are already configured for the chosen scenario and the pieces ready selected.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I would agree but currently the authors says those features aren't even intended. I think it would be smart to make JASL to include everything VASL does and do it better along with an AI and whatever else. I think the author doesnt want to **** off the VASL author in part because he is borrowing all his artwork from that project. But it creates a less than favorable result that way.

[QUOTE][B]
What MMP will think of all of this - I have no idea. But the hobby is dying
[/B][/QUOTE]
Some refuse to believe this (Les for one) and recent talks with MMP make me think MMP may be in that same boat. Perhaps its because MMP's original purpose was to keep ASL and a few other titles "alive". I think perhaps some at MMP are too "old school" themselves and probably don't understand the computer wargamer or computer wargaming business. I'm not aware that ANY of them play any computer wargame on any semi-regular basis. Does anyone else know different?
[QUOTE][B]
....and they can't be as aggressive as they have been with their copyright as they have been in the past - the player-base is drying up and they have lost a VAST amount of players to games such as Combat Mission and to a lesser extent Steel Panthers. Avalon Hill tried twice unsuccesfully to commission exactly the program which Lars is writing (one became CM and the other became Close Combat), so Lars has a great chance of making something of it when it is done and delivers the prospect of a finished product to them.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Doesn't appear that Lars intends to do any of that "Pursue a commercial version or finished product". So said he earlier in the thread. Correct me if that has now changed Lars...

[QUOTE][B]
Part of me actually hopes that it pushes ASL away from the model where one pays a great deal of money to obtain the scenarios. The CM and Steel Panthers communities have really set the tone here - user pays for the system ONCE and then can d/l a vast amount of scenarios and campaigns for free; with exceptional work[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep you keep hitting on advantages of a computer version of anything. Highly mod-able by the fans.. the best mods and scenarios become part of the playing community for free... Building scenarios keeps diehards interested and provides others a "fresh" and "free" additional experience.

You seem to agree with all my thoughts on VASL/JASL. That ideally the "next" Computer ASL should be full featured having an AI and all that VASL does as well. That it should be commercial. That it should be mod-able with a scenario editor and so forth. All that you would expect of a "professional" computer wargame. Most of that got slammed here before though. Especially the part about replacing VASL's functionality...



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 5:08:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peterk1
[B]What MMP will think of all of this - I have no idea. But the hobby is dying and they can't be as aggressive as they have been with their copyright as they have been in the past - the player-base is drying up and they have lost a VAST amount of players to games such as Combat Mission and to a lesser extent Steel Panthers. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually the "hobby is dying" part is exactly why they do have to be more aggressive in protecting their copyrights. That is because when they realize that a computer version has more merit than a boardgame version, they may not have anything to actually realease as "freebie" versions are already all over the place. Perhaps the next version of "Siege of Jerusalem" will only be on the computer. Even "Up Front 3rd Edition" can't seem to be affordable to print. Could it end up only in a PC version as well? Only time will tell but if they keep letting just anyone do whatever they want in regards to their copyrights and the computer... Its not going to help them.

Lets say Lars continued as a non-authorized ASL project and finished up everything as he wanted. And VASL is already out there. All that is great and probably will get some new players (how many is certainly uncertain). Now lets say MMP decides to "computerise" their whole product line or even just ASL and works with a development company to bring it to the PC as a full featured app. Certainly you would hope that commercial app would be better than JASL and VASL both. If it wasn't they would have even bigger problems. But lets assume it will be. Is every JASL and VASL player going to run out and buy it? HECK NO.. many will have all they are looking for in the freebie versions or at least not be willing to spring for a little more when less is free.

VASL/JASL can only hurt a commercial PC effort (however unlikely or likely it is) but at the same time I Personally don't care about that because I'd like to see a full PC version regardless (Id just prefer one game instead of two to accomplish that). But I do think MMP should care ALOT about it. And if they don't I think they SHOULD publicly approve and sanction any "freebie" efforts.



Peterk1 -> (5/5/2003 5:44:18 AM)

> I'm not aware that ANY of them play any computer wargame on > any semi-regular basis. Does anyone else know different?

At least one of the MMP guys (Curt Schiling) has played CM a little bit. More than that I have no idea. All they have to do is monitor traffic on the ASL mailing list and compare it to traffic on the CM board to know that they are hurting.

Hard to say what Lars should or shouldn't do. Right now it's a hobby pursuit, a labor of love - if he approaches them now and they are interested, you know it's going to start all the stuff that programmers hate to deal with - schedules, commitments, deliverables etc, etc. MMP shouldn't be too bad though - they are the kings of Lax as far as schedules go.

Ultimately it's his and maybe MMP's call as to what happens to it and how fast.



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 5:59:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peterk1
[B] MMP shouldn't be too bad though - they are the kings of Lax as far as schedules go. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it takes about a month for a good response to an email. And I've been told I should be flattered by that type of turn-around from most of them. Normal is like 2-3 months... or no response at all.

[QUOTE][B]
Ultimately it's his and maybe MMP's call as to what happens to it and how fast. [/B][/QUOTE]
It should solely be MMP's. I've already stated I don't believe it is morally correct or more importantly legal to freely violate copyright laws. If MMP doesn't mind they will say so and then that response can be posted on the website and so on.

I was just thinking though. Combat Leader and other such games are not too far from release. Combat Leader is sure to have a better AI than JASL could have (at least I'm assuming Matrix programmers have more experience in programming AI's no offense Lars). So why play ASL against the computer at all when you could just play Combat Leader??

I won't be able to answer personally until I can try Combat Leader out. Perhaps I'll play it and think there is nothing left that ASL gives me that Combat Leader doesn't (from a computerized wargame standpoint). Combat Leader being designed specifically with a pc in mind is also bound to make certain things about the system just plain better for play on a computer.

Perhaps the whole idea of playing ASL against an AI is flawed in the first place? You say ASL has already lost many players to existing games... what about when Combat Leader is out and its the best %$#^@ tactical warfare game of all time? Where does that leave ASL?

How many times should you kick something before you just accept that its dead?

Only time will tell...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/5/2003 6:18:15 AM)

Not so sure "the hobby is dying".

The numbers are hard to track out here on the sidelines.

MMP sold out their first print run of ASL rulebook 2nd edition. That much is a fact.
MMP is still making new product. That much is a fact.
ASL is friggin expensive as hell. That much is a fact.
But they are still selling it.

Steel Panthers is a great game, but today you can't sell it.

In 50 years when all the 40's age group wargamers are fertilizing the soil will there still be wargaming? Who knows.

When I think of all the web sites I have seen, I realise half are for board games that are old, and half are for computer games that are old.

Common thread there, is people are still insisting on playing old wargames regardless of whether they are board games or computer games.

But it is all basically my age group playing them.

So everything is somewhat linked to my age group.

When I go into Eyeball Soup in Peterborough (near where I live), I can see brand new board game wargames. I just the other day saw the Afrika Korps add on to Panzer Grenadier. And I liked the looks of it a lot.

Normally when I visit Electronic Boutique, all I see are shooters, and RTS type games. The electronic industry really could care less for me as a gamer in some ways it seems. Because I am not into shooters and RTS games. They have nothing in common with the wargaming I grew up on.

Most of the cool games I have found, I only see as marketed online. Maybe our niche is to specialised to merit shelf space.
I also never buy my books in stores, I only buy my military literature through specialised Military Book club bulletins.

Some games can be converted to computer and done well.
But the most important question is always, does your customer actually want it done?

Is a computer wargame sort of like selling an eskimo an igloo?

When I count up the numbers of people I know that wargame the numbers just don't add up to the hobby dying.
But the hobby does appear to be evolving.

The future for grognard wargaming might well take a path that separates the real time graphically intense crowd from the software as a tool for online board gaming crowd in the future.

The wargaming crowd could just as easily "walk away" from the computer option for being to removed from economically viable.

Yes ASL is expensive, but Lock and Load is not.
But as we speak, my computer is out of date to run games made since 2002 for the most part.

I don't think it will be unable to employ future software to run connectivity options for board games via the online experience though.

If in 5 years my computer is completely and totally unable to run the latest computer wargame, but still perfect for everything else, I can't picture myself spending another 2000 bucks just so I can.
That essentially adds 2k to any wargame made in the next few years to me.

But with a board game, you never need buy anything to make it playable.

That will ALWAYS be the undisputable hole card for board games.



Peterk1 -> (5/5/2003 8:20:46 AM)

> It should solely be MMP's.

Yeah, you're right. But there's nothing stopping Lars from doing it just for himself because it's fun and he will use it for himself. Which is probably pretty close to where it's at now.

> I won't be able to answer personally until I can try Combat
> Leader out. Perhaps I'll play it and think there is nothing left
> that ASL gives me that Combat Leader doesn't

I'm looking forward to it too. But we'll see. I kind of got that rush with Steel Panthers too when it came out...and only after quite a bit of play did I realize that the depth wasn't even close to ASL.

CM came really close to doing it for me and I played it almost exclusively for 3 years...and then I went back to learning ASL (tried 4 times, can't say I ever really learned it from top to bottom properly) because I found CM was not quite giving me enough control and I missed that sort of chess-like puzzle-solving attribute that ASL has.

> MMP sold out their first print run of ASL rulebook 2nd edition.
> That much is a fact.

And they're taking for ages to get it back on the shelf. In that period of time the number of new players (barring e-bay and 2nd hand purchases of RB v1) is cut to vistually 0 due to newbies not being able to get the rules.

Meanwhile CM may sell 1000 units in that same interval.

It's definitely a niche, but I have a feeling the niche is now far bigger for the computer games than the board games. Glad I was born in the generation where exposure to boardgame gems was easier and I'm looking forward to showing my little nephews how to play ASL ehen they're old enough.



Veldor -> (5/5/2003 9:06:51 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]That essentially adds 2k to any wargame made in the next few years to me.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well that is one BIG difference between older computer users and younger ones. There aren't as many things or reasons older people have computers in comparison to younger ones. And the reasons for people to have them will only increase. All the other things you need a computer to do require newer pc's as well if you want to stay up to date. Perhaps the video card itself is the only portion you could attribute purely to gaming, but even that is not always true. And even if it is its about a $150.00 difference.

This is the funny paradox about old people(not referring to anyone in particular here mind you). They just don't ever understand why younger people INSIST on doing something the newer way.

Like I would NEVER balance my checkbook without something like Microsoft Money. I would never even take a photograph anymore without a digital camera or digital camcorder and all the software to edit and print it.

But you could very well find that funny as well, probably disappointing. Who needs computers at all, just get your typewriter out and send your wargame turns through the postal service. Heck just write it. Throw the calculator away too.

No, sad or not, people adopt and lean on the newer ways of doing things. Generally they are faster and more efficient, certainly more powerful. Technology is part of what continues to evolve our society.

I wonder if any high school kid even knows what "carbon paper" is? If they do they probably have never even seen it.

That will eventually happen to most board wargames. At least the complex ones. Simple ones may well stick around for more "group" social experience. Your Risk and so on.. But the rest will die out once the generation that played them dies out. Everyone else will look upon that like anything else that can be done with a computer now..

But I wouldn't expect you to agree with that. Even I am a remnant of the boardgame era. But the "youngins" just aren't going to grow up to be boardgame ASL'rs...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/5/2003 7:54:29 PM)

Well like I said, and will continue to support (let the best argument win hehe).

Board gaming might take over wargaming, or in 50 years it might just suddenly disappear.

Today's youth is tomorrows adult (might be stating the obvious). But the kids of today often grow into us. And if "us" turns into grognards, then a lot of this argument is pointless. As some of "us" will always prefer board games.

It is a annoying fact though, a new computer system is no different than a new anything. The price remains about the same, but the item always improves.

I paid the same price for my 386, that I paid for my 486 and my 300MMX system. I used upgrades to get the system to where it currently is though. But upgrades are not "always" possible.
I needed a new motherboard to get a new hard drive. I needed a new case to get a new motherboard.
I have found, that if your system is 3 years old, you might as well just by a new case entirely. The only things that are a constant, are the keyboard and mouse, oh joy oh bliss.

Monitors are likely transferable, but they are prone to being replaced, simply because the latest thing needs the latest thrilling monitor, or the fun factor suffers (don't tell me you want to settle for your old 14 inch I am not listening).

I have found, that when a user gets a new case, the old case tends to walk off with the current monitor as well, including keyboard and mouse.
Soooooo that said, I have no reason to accept, that "upgrading" is defacto always a relevant statement.

Most power users buy a new system on average every 3-4 years.
Most power users buy a new major component every 6 months. Don't tell me this isn't so, I have no friends it "doesn't" apply to.

This all leads into my assertion, board gaming might eventually take over once more. It only requires the wargaming community tiring of the endless need to upgrade a computer, when this is not required of the board gaming option.

If every board game computer gaming hybrid wargamer suddenly dumped the computer wargaming option, the hobby would evolve to be FPS and RTS games only, with the other aspect of wargaming appearing on computers only as fan based home made options for past games.

It is not cheap to make a computer wargame. And the price is only going to likely go up as the tech needed to make them interesting rises.
The price of a board game wargame in the mid 70s was dramatically cheaper than a game from the mid 80s.

This is because they went from simple looking games, with simple looking materials, to complex looking games, with intense imagery and computer assisted designs.

You can see the difference when comparing Russian Campaign with Russian Front both by AH. ASL is also a good example of a game much changed through the ability to employ a computer to make it. Original Squad Leader was a one box game for a modest price.

I have seen Panzer Grenadier and it's add on Afrika Korps. Sure it won't have a massive print run. But then NO wargame has EVER had a massive print run. Only a nut seeks to get rich on wargames. It's possible to make a viable business, but you won't be living high off the hog.

I could be happy wargaming with just board games. It IS after all an option. And it need not just be an old guy option. It is up to us "old guys" to show new blood that board games can be fun.

Heck if the hobby dies at all, it will likely only be because we let it. Not because computers are better, but because no one cared to give anyone a choice.

So the young guy buys a nice shinny new computer that can play anything. It is comical to assume, that just because his nice shiny new computer can play the nice shiny new wargame, that he won't be interested in a board game.
With that logic, I should refrain from reading books, because obviously movies are better.



larth -> (5/6/2003 7:07:15 PM)

Sarge / Peter / Veldor,

Sorry for this lengthy reply, but answering a lot here: ;-)

[QUOTE][I]Sarge wrote:[/I][B]
Not so sure "the hobby is dying".

The numbers are hard to track out here on the sidelines.

MMP sold out their first print run of ASL rulebook 2nd edition. That much is a fact.
MMP is still making new product. That much is a fact.
ASL is friggin expensive as hell. That much is a fact.
But they are still selling it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, this aspect of ASL is amazing! I also doubt that boardgames will be gone anytime soon due to computer games. Sitting together and playing with your family and/or friends is not by far the same when done in front of the computer. Even a hardcore strategy game like ASL is seeing new (young!) players each year, in spite of the price tag and complexity. The ASL tournaments I know stay stable or increase in size each year. This is also a reason someone perhaps encountering ASL in the form of a computer program would be intrested in the cardboard version as well. It doesn't mean the person has to start dishing out money for cardboard ASL just because he is intrested, he can do so if he wants. Is this possible with any other strategy game of some complexity today?

[QUOTE][I]Sarge wrote:[/I][B]
So the young guy buys a nice shinny new computer that can play anything. It is comical to assume, that just because his nice shiny new computer can play the nice shiny new wargame, that he won't be interested in a board game.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Indeed. Chess, for example, is only one example where the computer game has not killed of the "real" version, even when possessing an AI much better that any ASL AI can hope to be! In my opinion the human element is missing and that allows the coexistance. Also: how many times have you read about players playing this or that computer game and really likes it, but stops because the play (e.g. the game engine) is not challenging? Voila! With ASL you only have to go to an ASL club or tournament to meet the ultimate in ASL "AI", namely real human players!

Internet today is sorely underused in promoting or enabling non-computer games. The Lock 'n Load download you mentioned is perhaps common but it is new for me and a refreshing idea! Someone thinking outside the box. Cool. Peter mentioned the intro to ASL which contains all needed to play The Guards Counterattack and there is the Intro ASL kit comming up so there is hope that the "demo" aspect for ASL will be cowered by these.

[QUOTE][I]Veldor wrote:[/I][B]
Correct me if that has now changed Lars...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Re. commercial version of JASL; it wasn't the intention of it when I started thinking about writing an ASL program 10 - 11 years and three programming languages ago and it still is not the main reason why I do it. However, it is increasingly being suggested to me in emails and on other forums and I am certainly not opposed to it. It would be nice to give something back to the family for the time invested. Certainly it is not possible without a legal agreement. And no, I am not planning not to include the VASL functionality in JASL to avoiding harsh feelings from Rodney. I mean this functionality [U]is already[/U] available in VASL, why on earth should I spend time reinventing it? I have enough on my hand as it is... IF, and that is a big IF, that would be a requirement for a commercial version of JASL I will think real hard about it (and probably ask Rodney about combining JASL with VASL). Note that it is relatively easy to use scanned images instead of the VASL art (which would probably be a requirement in a commercial version anyway). I will take another approach to counter art with the next version of JASL, but not for this reason.

[QUOTE][I]Veldor wrote:[/I][B]
Now lets say MMP decides to "computerise" their whole product line or even just ASL and works with a development company to bring it to the PC as a full featured app. Certainly you would hope that commercial app would be better than JASL and VASL both. If it wasn't they would have even bigger problems. But lets assume it will be. Is every JASL and VASL player going to run out and buy it? HECK NO.. many will have all they are looking for in the freebie versions or at least not be willing to spring for a little more when less is free.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Should MMP do this I fully expect to be required to take the JASL program offline, so I don't see a case here. As long as no other is working on this - and as Peter mentions there has been two (failed) commercial attempts already - well, are not JASL / VASL creating additional interest in ASL?


[QUOTE][I]Peter wrote:[/I][B]
Hard to say what Lars should or shouldn't do. Right now it's a hobby pursuit, a labor of love - if he approaches them now and they are interested, you know it's going to start all the stuff that programmers hate to deal with - schedules, commitments, deliverables etc, etc. MMP shouldn't be too bad though - they are the kings of Lax as far as schedules go.

Ultimately it's his and maybe MMP's call as to what happens to it and how fast.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You hit the head of nail here, Peter! Setting up a schedule for a software project like this would be tricky. Though there is one thing that ASL has in its favor compared to creating a new game and that is that rules are already in place and are well tested already so the whole task is to realize those. Thus the goal is well defined which is rarely the case in software projects! :-) Not only that, since the rules are well known testers will also know them.


[QUOTE][I]Veldor wrote:[/I][B]
I was just thinking though. Combat Leader and other such games are not too far from release. Combat Leader is sure to have a better AI than JASL could have (at least I'm assuming Matrix programmers have more experience in programming AI's no offense Lars). So why play ASL against the computer at all when you could just play Combat Leader??

...

Perhaps the whole idea of playing ASL against an AI is flawed in the first place? You say ASL has already lost many players to existing games... what about when Combat Leader is out and its the best %$#^@ tactical warfare game of all time? Where does that leave ASL?
[/B][/QUOTE]

No offence taken. Certainly a choice that players would have to make. Since a company would have to make sure they get their money back perhaps that is an additional reason why commercial companies are not jumping on the chance of doing a computer ASL? Rules complexity, limited market (or?) and other almost-same games competing for buyers.

I don't know Combat Leader so I can't comment on it or it replacing ASL, but perhaps one reason to choose JASL would be because it is ASL compatible? Peter said as much that he came back to ASL because of the possibilities offered by the rules and I believe ASL is a unique game in many ways.


see you,
Lars



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (5/6/2003 7:30:03 PM)

Hmm everyone knows I prefer boardgaming wargaming (I think everyone knows that at least).

Not sure if it is entirely clear "why".

There is a term that has meaning to me. It might have been lost to many gamers, as it has no relevance to computer gaming.

Metagame

Some might have heard the term, it is certainly known to most my age (and so many wargamers are my age).

You can make a computer game so good. But regardless of how good, you can simply not give me any portion of the Metagame currently.

So what the heck is Metagaming?

Metagaming is all the intangibles present when that other dude is sitting opposite you at the table (if I have the definition correct). It's the aspects of gaming that transcend the actual game itself.

When I game, I chat, I banter, I appeal to the great dice god frequently. I enjoy listening to background ambiance sound tracks relevant to the game. I have even dressed up to some extent during a good game.

I am sure I could ramble on further.

I am not alone here though.

Just as there will always be those that do something one way, there will always be those that insist on doing it another.

Take rock climbing. We have all seen the neat commercial walls created for this to make it a sport. So why risk life and limb out on a real rock face? Because there is more to it than just climbing a difficult surface of course.

ASL is a great game. It might be a cool game if made entirely into a computer game where not one iota of the game was lost in the process. But the actual board game will remain the original experience it is now.

Sometimes, you have to play a wargame on a table to get the experience you are looking for.

I like playing the solitaire game Patton's Best. I can freely admit though, that Panzer Elite is likely a great deal better choice though.

Computers can most assuredly do some things better.

But some times, a computer CAN'T do what a board game CAN.

That's why they are still making board games.



Challerain -> (5/7/2003 9:33:02 AM)

[QUOTE]I think perhaps some at MMP are too "old school" themselves and probably don't understand the computer wargamer or computer wargaming business. I'm not aware that ANY of them play any computer wargame on any semi-regular basis. Does anyone else know different?[/QUOTE]

I don't think they play many computer wargames anymore, but years ago Brian and I would fire up the old SSI classics (Knights of the Desert, Kamfgruppe, etc) and go at it for hours. I know Brian and Curt have messed around with CM a little, but I just don't think they have much time with working fulltime, raising families, and running MMP.



Veldor -> (5/7/2003 10:09:30 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challerain
[B]I don't think they play many computer wargames anymore, but years ago Brian and I would fire up the old SSI classics (Knights of the Desert, Kamfgruppe, etc) and go at it for hours. I know Brian and Curt have messed around with CM a little, but I just don't think they have much time with working fulltime, raising families, and running MMP. [/B][/QUOTE]

Though, as last I heard, Curt Shilling was still an Everquest Addict.



Veldor -> (5/7/2003 10:25:24 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]
IF, and that is a big IF, that would be a requirement for a commercial version of JASL I will think real hard about it (and probably ask Rodney about combining JASL with VASL). [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think you need to be a computer game publisher to realize that it WOULD have to be included. Playing vs a real opponent online and an AI. Perhaps you see a little more my point? It IS required for a commercial version and even if it'll never be a commercial version why settle for less? No one (Id hope not even Rodney) would fault you for trying to make your game the absolute best. Even if it makes VASL far less attractive an option. Any artist, writer, developer, etc. would do the same.
[QUOTE][B]
Note that it is relatively easy to use scanned images instead of the VASL art (which would probably be a requirement in a commercial version anyway). I will take another approach to counter art with the next version of JASL, but not for this reason.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What approach might that be? Not using scanned images was one of the ways VASL originally escaped the attention of Avalon Hill's lawyers. That and the fact that there is next to no logic implemented in the game makes VASL a nearly impossible target for copyright infringement (Ask Rodney yourself.. He stated this is more than one interview as well). So I'd be careful with scanned images and I'm not sure what "other" approach there might be.

Perhaps it is the gamer and thus the competitor in me that would seek out to always "attempt" the greatest success with anything I undertake. I think that may just be where I see differently on this than you. I would seek a commercial product, I would seek a PC ASL game that is the "end all" of PC ASL games, I would want my product to be as big a shiny gem as it can be. Sure those things may not end up happening, but not attempting them in the first place is any even bigger failure....



Mac_MatrixForum -> (5/9/2003 4:09:36 AM)

Sorry took a while to answer but I was busy. Bring it on ;).

[B]Les[/B]

I surely liked the demo game idea because I have very little possibility of observing somebody playing the real thing and I'm not so in that I could immediately tell if one game is worth buying or not. Also to Veldor, printing out the maps and counters really isn't a big trouble. Only takes hours if that's what you want. Also, if one can't condense the basic game into fifteen pages, I would be skeptic.

[B]Veldor[/B]

Computer opponent is not a requirement for a succesful business (or fun game). Just think all the (massively) multiplayer games, or games like DBAOL. AI doesn't [B]have[/B] to be included in every game. Subscription based business models can offer better service.

Competent AI would be great but sadly it's not usually affordable (or possible). I would wager that it's actually easier to write an AI to ASL than say Combat Leader since ASL has stabilized and been played for years so there are talented people who would know how to play it well. Not so easy with new games.

Does [I]"best is the enemy of good"[/I] ring a bell? Aiming for the best in the first place [B]will[/B] make you fail. What use is a great game if it's not completed? When something stops being fun it wont get completed unless you get paid a lot. What's wrong in competition? In an ideal world there is one product that satisfies everybody but real world isn't ideal and even attempting to be perfect usually ends up worse. What's with the monopoly-wish then? I for one am guilty of megalomania when it comes to games but I do it because it's a fun hobby and can get things done when it's my job.

As why board games have a place it's because they are often more convenient, there is real social interaction going on (aka metagame), you're having fun with friends, you're not stuck sitting at a tiny display, they have neat things you can touch/craft (miniature games even more so). Can't say if ASL is fun because I have never played it but I would expect it beats many computer games since people still play it. But also computer games have their place since they do a different thing. It's not like you have to pick one or the other.

[QUOTE][B]No, sad or not, people adopt and lean on the newer ways of doing things. Generally they are faster and more efficient, certainly more powerful. Technology is part of what continues to evolve our society.[/B][/QUOTE]

*sigh* This has very little to do with computer and board games. You cannot see that both [I]"technologies"[/I] have their use. Really obsolete technolgies will get replaced but there are always some things to consider:
[LIST]
  • Digital cameras are not perfect, plain old cameras just have better picture for comparable price.
  • Young people have also other reasons for doing things. Certainly not all old people are like you imply but stay up with the latest tech. In fact they finally have the time to do it.
  • Technology for technology's sake is something I could've said since I'm very much a technocrat but most of your stuff in this thread is more capitalist to me. Also an unhealthy negative attitude for a technocrat ;).
  • C++ has flaws too.
  • Commercial quality has sometimes to do with good, not always. Most commercial quality games we would probably find boring and uninteresting so what's the reason to follow the standards they set?
  • Technically best solution does not always win. Bad products get put out to the markets.
    [/LIST]

    [B]Lars[/B]

    1. What is so good about a [B]garbage collector[/B]? For good design you need to work out the responsibilities anyway and that helps explicit resource management. Also garbage collector works only for memory not other resources. RAII is nice and works for other than memory too. I practically never use arrays so the different delete does not matter. Neither do I use arrays in Java. I just finished a project where a mysterious bug crept in because the garbage collector didn't do its job. Sure it's one nice tool if used properly.

    2.[B] Standard libraries[/B] are a blessing and a curse. You cannot fix the interface (or certain bugs) when they are carved into stone. Or if you do like has happened (Enumeration/Iterator anyone?), you end up with a lot of incompatible code (or just plain bloat). Showing HTML might be something I'd use at some point too but I'm not sure it should be standard functionality. What does it do in my Palm? Undefined behavior?. Optional libraries called for? For example the Java3D API is IMO problematic because 3D is nowhere done yet. Is there going to be Java3D 2 some day? C++ standard library with a few additions is very capable. Before you go platform specific too, which I don't do in my code. Only if you have problems you need to roll out your own code.

    3. Heard of debuggers? [B]Stacktrace[/B] is not enough by itself but for simplest bugs. It's still the same work to create cleaner logs in both languages. java.util.logging isn't that great.

    4. [B]What You See Is What You Run[/B] *gasp* How can I be sure that a.b(c) does what I want it to? What if it throws an exception? So overloading must be bad because a = b + c can be a meaningful operation for vectors too? Again I must bring the point of abstractions. You have to trust something at some point. Why does Java String have operator+? Because many times it's convenient and cleaner. You can use any feature wrong.

    5. Java has some [B]undefined behavior[/B] too... it crops up in any program regardless of language because you have a lot of pre-/postconditions you cannot validate statically. Undefined behavior due to the language is something C++ has and it's problematic because you need to know the standard well.

    6. [B]Filenames relate to classnames.[/B] That's what I've done for years in C++.

    7. Java is not the only language with [B]tools[/B]. I don't have very positive comments about some Java tools. Usually it's the terrible performance and the bugs. Bugs I can find in C++ tools too.



    • larth -> (5/9/2003 4:14:52 AM)

    Sarge,

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
    [B]Metagame

    Some might have heard the term, it is certainly known to most my age (and so many wargamers are my age).

    You can make a computer game so good. But regardless of how good, you can simply not give me any portion of the Metagame currently.

    So what the heck is Metagaming?

    Metagaming is all the intangibles present when that other dude is sitting opposite you at the table (if I have the definition correct). It's the aspects of gaming that transcend the actual game itself.

    When I game, I chat, I banter, I appeal to the great dice god frequently. I enjoy listening to background ambiance sound tracks relevant to the game. I have even dressed up to some extent during a good game.

    I am sure I could ramble on further.

    I am not alone here though.
    ey are still making board games. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I agree 100% with you. And just for the record I don't think playing against a computer ASL program will ever be as enjoyable as a good game of ASL. Sorry, I think I am your age :) but I did not know the term "metagaming" before, but know what you mean with it. Going to tournaments is all about this. I'd like to add the mutual fun of talking through a game after it is finished or having your opponent watching as you surprise him. Perhaps it can be summarized as the "human factor" which is sorely missing from PC games.

    see you,
    lars



    larth -> (5/9/2003 4:33:38 AM)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
    [B]I don't think you need to be a computer game publisher to realize that it WOULD have to be included. Playing vs a real opponent online and an AI. Perhaps you see a little more my point?
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    No. Why is it imperative that I [U]start[/U] with recreating the functionality of VASL when JASL is doing something diffrently?

    [QUOTE][B]What approach might that be? [/B][/QUOTE]

    Sorry... I'll let you know when the next version is released.

    [QUOTE][B]Perhaps it is the gamer and thus the competitor in me that would seek out to always "attempt" the greatest success with anything I undertake. I think that may just be where I see differently on this than you. I would seek a commercial product, I would seek a PC ASL game that is the "end all" of PC ASL games, I would want my product to be as big a shiny gem as it can be. Sure those things may not end up happening, but not attempting them in the first place is any even bigger failure.... [/B][/QUOTE]

    Perhaps you are to fixated on earning $'s, that might be the difference between us. Why do you believe I would not want JASL to be the best?

    Measuring success can be done in different ways: How would your rate a less-than-perfect JASL compared to a planning table full of great but unrealised ideas?

    /Lars



    larth -> (5/9/2003 5:40:02 AM)

    Mac,

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
    [B]As why board games have a place it's because they are often more convenient, there is real social interaction going on (aka metagame), you're having fun with friends, you're not stuck sitting at a tiny display, they have neat things you can touch/craft (miniature games even more so). Can't say if ASL is fun because I have never played it but I would expect it beats many computer games since people still play it. But also computer games have their place since they do a different thing. It's not like you have to pick one or the other.
    [/B][/QUOTE]


    If you happen to be anywhere close to the Parola Armor museum (near Helsinki) later in August I am sure you can get a free taste of ASL at the annual Finnish tournament held there! The homepage is at http://www.hut.fi/u/tjlukkar/fiasl/ and yes, the metagaming includes sauna! ;)

    And now we dive into this!

    [QUOTE][B]
    1. What is so good about a [B]garbage collector[/B]? For good design you need to work out the responsibilities anyway and that helps explicit resource management. Also garbage collector works only for memory not other resources. RAII is nice and works for other than memory too. I practically never use arrays so the different delete does not matter. Neither do I use arrays in Java. I just finished a project where a mysterious bug crept in because the garbage collector didn't do its job. Sure it's one nice tool if used properly.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Well, if you like RAII then you know it is good about a GC! It allows you to concentrate on the coding and not about when to return memory to the machine.

    Was the bug in a Java GC or in RAII?
    [QUOTE][B]

    2.[B] Standard libraries[/B] are a blessing and a curse. You cannot fix the interface (or certain bugs) when they are carved into stone. Or if you do like has happened (Enumeration/Iterator anyone?), you end up with a lot of incompatible code (or just plain bloat). Showing HTML might be something I'd use at some point too but I'm not sure it should be standard functionality. What does it do in my Palm? Undefined behavior?. Optional libraries called for? For example the Java3D API is IMO problematic because 3D is nowhere done yet. Is there going to be Java3D 2 some day? C++ standard library with a few additions is very capable. Before you go platform specific too, which I don't do in my code. Only if you have problems you need to roll out your own code.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Certainly libraries are not cooping well with all situation. One example is for example when later "standard libraries" add functionality previously available in third party libs, like logging. One advantage of the standard Java libs is that you get the source code for them when you download the JDK's so you actually have a chance to fix the bugs (perhaps by defining a new class when you can't fix it by inherit and overide).

    If there is a bug which prevents a library on a specific platform to perform as intended that is bug only and not a weakness in the concept itself. The same if a lib is unfinished. But you always have the possibility to use others if available.

    For me "undefined behavior" is the defined result in the C language and as far as I know C++ for certain cases. There are no undefined behavior in Java [I]the language[/I] as far as I know, e.g. like what strlen(NULL) does.

    [QUOTE][B]

    3. Heard of debuggers? [B]Stacktrace[/B] is not enough by itself but for simplest bugs. It's still the same work to create cleaner logs in both languages. java.util.logging isn't that great.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    But there is a huge difference between using debuggers and getting a stacktrace, namely that to use the debugger you have to start it! Obviously! :) A backtrace can be returned to you from a user which don't have a debugger.

    Creating logs is a different matter; I have not used the logging classes though I know some say the log4j are better.
    [QUOTE][B]

    4. [B]What You See Is What You Run[/B] *gasp* How can I be sure that a.b(c) does what I want it to? What if it throws an exception? So overloading must be bad because a = b + c can be a meaningful operation for vectors too? Again I must bring the point of abstractions. You have to trust something at some point. Why does Java String have operator+? Because many times it's convenient and cleaner. You can use any feature wrong.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    No you get me wrong here. WYSIWYR (tm) says that if you a problem in the doWork() method:

    int doWork(){

    int a = getX() + getW();

    a = a * 10;

    return a;

    }

    it is likely that you need to look in getX() and / or getY(). You [B]know[/B] that there is nothing funny implicit calls hiding behind a [B]possible[/B] overloading the '+' or the '/'. When you allow overloading you have to check all these becuase they may be overloaded and you don't know that if you do not check in a different place.

    This may seem trivial for this piece code, especially if you have written it yourself, but eventually you end up reading others code or your own from three years ago.

    There are some implicit calls in Java, true, and the String '+' is one of them, then there is a super() in each constructor and a finalizer call as well. However, these are defined and a programmer cannot add arbritarily to these.

    [QUOTE][B]

    5. Java has some [B]undefined behavior[/B] too... it crops up in any program regardless of language because you have a lot of pre-/postconditions you cannot validate statically. Undefined behavior due to the language is something C++ has and it's problematic because you need to know the standard well.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    When is there undefined behavior in Java? Note that exceptions are defined behavior.

    [QUOTE][B]

    6. [B]Filenames relate to classnames.[/B] That's what I've done for years in C++.

    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Se we agree this is good!
    [QUOTE][B]

    7. Java is not the only language with [B]tools[/B]. I don't have very positive comments about some Java tools. Usually it's the terrible performance and the bugs. Bugs I can find in C++ tools too. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I did not say java was the only. But the tools available adds to the attraction of the language and the plattform. Some I haven't seen for other languages (not that I have searched for them!) like refactoring.

    see you,
    Lars



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