What are HARPOON missiles good for? (Full Version)

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Meiktila -> What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 5:12:54 PM)

I can't get these to hit anything, SAM always take them down.

64 fired, one hit, medium damage.

Do they actually work or have a use? Makes me wonder what their point is if the thing they should be good at, taking down surface combatants, they can't do so well.

Of course it could just be me?



cns180784 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 5:18:03 PM)

Well they're anti ship missiles so only target surface ships. Sounds like you're targeting a modern SAG with high missile defence values. If you look at a ships' database entry, it shows its missile defence value so if it has 10 Harpoon, then thats how many harpoons you'd need to fire at it to overwhelm its defences...but if that ship is part of a group and the rest have good missile defence values then they multiply its missile defence value...pretty much. But can depend on how spread out the SAG's formation is and the range of its SAM's.



Coiler12 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 5:18:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meiktila

I can't get these to hit anything, SAM always take them down.

64 fired, one hit, medium damage.

Do they actually work or have a use? Makes me wonder what their point is if the thing they should be good at, taking down surface combatants, they can't do so well.

Of course it could just be me?


What's the target/context? Sounds you were firing them at an ultra-capable opponent. For lower-end targets or in situations where you can overload the defense, they do fine. Keep in mind they're a 70s design, so if the opponent is from a later period and is intended to take on ASMs, it makes more sense.



mikmykWS -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 5:22:27 PM)

If you could post a save file we can give a breakdown of what might of happened. Posting the log would be helpful as well.

Thanks!

Mike






DWReese -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 5:39:16 PM)

Shoot one at an unarmed ship. If it hits, then you know that they work.

If you shoot at a heavily defended Group of ships, or an AEGIS-type ship, then unless you find a way to overwhelm it, it's doubtful that anything will get through.

Doug



Dysta -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 6:51:19 PM)

That's no doubt why LRASM will soon replace it. But again, I need to know what kind of opponent you're encountering, and a savefile can let us examine.



Nightwatch -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 7:20:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meiktila

I can't get these to hit anything, SAM always take them down.

64 fired, one hit, medium damage.

Do they actually work or have a use? Makes me wonder what their point is if the thing they should be good at, taking down surface combatants, they can't do so well.

Of course it could just be me?

Yes and no.
Harpoons have been around for decades and even after multiple upgrades, its just an unimpressive subsonic AShM.
Against first rate adversaries today just throwing Harpoons wont do. You need to attack from multiple angles with massive oecm support. Make sure to throw in a couple of HARMs, AARGMs and SLAMERs.
Different weapons at different heights and speeds mess up targeting and when you knock out some radars, its usually enough to overwhelm the defenses.

But no matter what you do, you'll always need a ****load of ordnance to get any hits. LRASM cant come fast enough.



Dysta -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 7:32:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightwatch

But no matter what you do, you'll always need a ****load of ordnance to get any hits. LRASM cant come fast enough.


I didn't say LRASM was made to be drastically superior to Harpoon. I was about to say it can be hugely loaded inside MK41 VLS for fewer ships, as well as the air-launch variants for stealth aircrafts to reduce the risk being intercepted.

Still, a single fleet with 200 of them, is more than enough.



ExNusquam -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 8:03:58 PM)

A couple of points:
1. In C:MANO A/R/UGM-84's are pretty much useless against anything that displaces greater than 2-3000 tons, unless it's part of a mass attack comprised of ARMs, Decoys and OECM. Ever wonder why the USN gave up the Harpoons on DDG 79+? C:MANO scenarios also rarely have you attacking a surprised target. Since you can set unit proficiency via lua, I might play around with that idea...

2. In real life, almost every ASM fired at a target that did not detect the launch has hit. This paper should almost be considered mandatory reading to play Command (The only ASM launch that has occurred since this paper was written was INS Hanit/SACCADE exchange, which doesn't challenge any assumptions in the paper). While I doubt the Harpoon will be part of the US's opening salvo against a near-peer opponent, there are plenty of other (probably more likely) cases where the missile can be employed successfully. The Harpoon, SWITCHBLADE and Exocet have been exported to a stupid number of countries that could employ them against smaller surface combatants that lack both defenses/countermeasures but also the sensors to detect ASMs at a useful range.



cns180784 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 8:12:22 PM)

I managed to sink the Soviet Kiev helicopter cruiser in the Duelists scenario with 12 Sea Eagles but this was due mainly to the Soviets having no air search radars to see them well before the Sea Eagles went active at just 5nm out.



Dysta -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 8:43:37 PM)

I kinda understand the doctrine of "Blind, Cripple and Maim": Jammer and HARM first to take out the detectability (blind), until it's completely ineffective to return fire (cripple), when the mission demands, or the target still can do harm to your units, ASM will ensure they won't do it (maim, possibly kill but wasting missiles for sinking a blind ship is unwise).

For the cheaper and non-asymmetrically prepared units, the only option is "Kill", by launching as many ASMs to saturate the fleet as possible to force them passively react for their defense, while the offset attacks (air units and submarines) are overwhelming them at the same time. But the modern vessels are very good at multi-tasking with general combat and engagement systems, this left the offensive two options by either drastically increasing more missiles to over-saturate their maximum defense (as LRASM for MK41, 200 of them to at least overwhelm 2 destroyer-protected fleet with lots of SAMs and CIWS), or, consider an asymmetrical countermeasure.




Nightwatch -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 8:47:28 PM)


quote:


I didn't say LRASM was made to be drastically superior to Harpoon. I was about to say it can be hugely loaded inside MK41 VLS for fewer ships, as well as the air-launch variants for stealth aircrafts to reduce the risk being intercepted.

Still, a single fleet with 200 of them, is more than enough.

Yeah well, LRASM has to things going for it. Stealth (obviously) and range. There is no way for an opponent to detect an LRASM strike from far out. Any task force going up against LRASM equipped adversary will have to maintain full air defense alert levels 24/7. Thats kinda har to do.

The best thing about it is not the shipborne version however. Just like with the JASSMs, the real deal is the LRASM - Strategic Bomber combo.
Within two years the US Air Force will have the capability to deploy dozens upon dozens of LRASMs anywhere in the Pacific theatre using B-1Bs from CONUS. And if you think thats bad, try imagining how you would defend your Task Force against a B-2 hauling LRASMs or (a decade or two down the road) against a B-21.
You essentially cant, not without switching to shipborne air defense lasers.

The bad news on the other hand, the US military will most likely need many, many years to procure the LRASM in meaningful numbers. Especially the shipborne version. And pray they dont screw it up by selecting JSM or some upgraded Tomahawk for some mission segments.





Dysta -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 9:01:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightwatch

The bad news on the other hand, the US military will most likely need many, many years to procure the LRASM in meaningful numbers. Especially the shipborne version. And pray they dont screw it up by selecting JSM or some upgraded Tomahawk for some mission segments.


Real-time satellite imagery with SAR is a thing, so US is truly is running out of option. If they know it's expensive and take time to produce, then they should focus on upgrade current ships with MK41, then use bigger budget for tooling to mass-produce missiles to suit with this doctrine. Unlike they're making Russian monstrosity, the price should be controllable consider they're smaller and less complicated design for subsonic speed.



mikmykWS -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 9:04:59 PM)

Most advanced missiles cost 1.25 million so any attack is a sizable investment which as defenses get better is getting worse and worse.

Strategies are:

1)More advanced including targeting, nav, stealth and active/passive defense. Uber costs. Think LRASM, SCALP, Krylon etc)
2)Joint missile. Higher cost but spread across different mission areas. Think like Klub or Tomahawk (once it gets its ship capability back in a couple years).
3)Less advanced but larger salvos. Cost per unit lower but need big ships/aircraft to carry bigger loads. Think Chinese and Indian C-80x and SS-N-25 mounts.
4)Go with something totally new. Railguns, lasers etc.

Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 9:09:44 PM)

As far as figuring out what's the right combinations of missiles etc. Figuring out that is what's part of what's fun about the game!
[:)]
Mike



Nightwatch -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 9:42:51 PM)


quote:


Real-time satellite imagery with SAR is a thing, so US is truly is running out of option. If they know it's expensive and take time to produce, then they should focus on upgrade current ships with MK41, then use bigger budget for tooling to mass-produce missiles to suit with this doctrine. Unlike they're making Russian monstrosity, the price should be controllable consider they're smaller and less complicated design for subsonic speed.

First and foremost, SAR satellites are problem for ships trying to hide, not aircraft. But it'll take an awful lot of them to achieve decent coverage of the Western Pacific region at any time. And they (and its uplink stations) wont last long in a general conflict anyway.

Anyway, what you are suggesting would be possible of course. A great many things would be possible with the current budget. If the stars align and the US government would start thinking about actual defense needs instead of sucking up to defense contractors.
As things stand, not likely to happen anytime soon. It will eventually though, after the next big war.





cns180784 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 9:45:40 PM)

In Canarys Cage i used a combo of HARMS, Harpoons and OECM to sink an enemy SAG that comprised of Perry class frigates, went down pretty well though it did take i think about three airstrikes with my Hornets.



KungPao -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/3/2016 11:00:39 PM)

it depends on which scenario. In a 1970's or early 80's scenario shooting 1 or 2 rnd Harpoon is enough sink a Kolin class or a Type 051 class . you need 7 to 10 rnd to overwhelm the Type 42 or Sovremenny class' Air defence. But if you are facing modern destroy like Type 052C or Burke, well, good luck. You will probably need 100 rnd Harpoon.

But there is an art of warfare called combined arms. Like cns180784 said, a combo of HARMS, Harpoons and OECM can defeat modern DDG . Please note HARMS speed is almost 4 times faster than Harpoon. So how to coordinate the attack is the tricky part. If you shoot the HARMS and Harpoons at the same time and same distance, the target ship will have enough time to defeat HARMS first, then take care of Harpoons later.

My favorite tactics : fire all the Harpoons first, airplane carry HARMS stay as low as possible, follow the Harpoons to infiltrate. Wait until you see the red emission, target ship turn on their fire control radar, then you release all your HARMS. In most case, first salvo of SAM will target Harpoons , but HARMS will be shield from the damage. HARMS will bypass the Harpoons in short time and impact the target ship with very limit time for reaction, it is enough to damage the FCR. And the Harpoons will get the job done.



Rory Noonan -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 1:23:25 AM)

In the spirit of combined arms above, I often try to use ISR resources to identify the big defensive assets (DDGs, Aegis etc) and then take them out using subs. In general ships are optimised for one or two roles at the expense of others. Ships that are a 'jack of all trades' are generally less effective than specialists, so there's often a rock-paper-scissors type arrangement to take advantage of.

Where getting a sub through the screen isn't possible, OECM and SEAD really comes into play. Studying the DB helps too, you may be able to identify a weakness that you hadn't thought of (e.g. SAM engagement envelope, old hull sonar suite, etc).

Finally, if you are not getting anywhere with an attack, it's worth considering whether its mission critical to actually destroy the SAG in question. Is there another way to mitigate it without wasting resources? Simply avoiding a SAG is not always convenient, but can sometimes be enough to let you get the mission done.



thewood1 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 2:07:55 AM)

The first thing I check is the war of missile attrition. How many tubes, estimate of SAMs, types of CIWS. You can quickly get at how many platforms and missiles you'll need. Harpoons are slower than some other ASMs, but if you have a lot of them, you attrit SAMS, and maybe damage or sink some screen ships. And then you can follow up with more conventional weapons.

Of course, if you don't have the platforms of missile numbers, you'll have to hope for a silver bullet or golden BB.



Dysta -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 3:50:30 AM)

Either combined arms, or oversaturation, numerous solutions can be used and hardly can tell them all in few paragraphs.

Or, I am still waiting for the savefile to see the actual situation. I hope Meiktila make few more posts so he can upload it sooner.



Meiktila -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 10:16:32 AM)

Thanks for all your great replies - you have given me lots of ideas for future attempts at taking down a SAG.

Unfortunately I don't have a save file - I wasn't really thinking of it in that way. But it was a strong missile heavy mid 90s Soviet SAG and I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s).

I really like this idea of OECM plus HARM in combo with Harpoons. Co-ordination and timing does seem to be the huge issue.



Excroat3 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 6:19:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meiktila

Thanks for all your great replies - you have given me lots of ideas for future attempts at taking down a SAG.

Unfortunately I don't have a save file - I wasn't really thinking of it in that way. But it was a strong missile heavy mid 90s Soviet SAG and I was probably lucky that even one Harpoon got through (64 fired from 8 B-52s).

I really like this idea of OECM plus HARM in combo with Harpoons. Co-ordination and timing does seem to be the huge issue.

Can you give us the scenario name? Sort of sounds like my scenario: The Seventh Battle, 1992



Meiktila -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (9/4/2016 7:58:45 PM)

Ha - yes indeed it was. I thought those Harpoons were going to be my ace up the sleeve, but bombed it (pun). Great fun playing it btw, thanks.



SheperdN7 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/16/2016 12:04:47 AM)

I've only played this game for about an hour (recently bought it off of steam) but I played the OLD Harpoon games (yes the pen and paper one's) as a kid and remember my dad always telling me that harpoons were useless against modern warships with high defence systems, incredible against older ships and merchants. Harpoons have pretty high accuracy ratings and I guess that is the trade-off for its lower damage properties. Its all about philosophy, would you rather a weapon that only hits 30% of the time but does massive damage (shipwrecks) or would you rather have a missile that hits 85% of the time but does low-medium damage (harpoons).



StellarRat -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/19/2016 5:15:56 PM)

The rail gun is the new ASM. Cheap to use, hard to defend against, good range. Of course, it can't be carried by smaller ships or subs, but it's going to be a game changer in surface warfare.



SheperdN7 -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/23/2016 10:06:57 PM)

quote:

The rail gun is the new ASM. Cheap to use, hard to defend against, good range. Of course, it can't be carried by smaller ships or subs, but it's going to be a game changer in surface warfare.


+1




Rory Noonan -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 1:52:56 AM)

Getting a bit OT but what kind of range would we expect a rail gun to engage at?



StellarRat -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 5:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

Getting a bit OT but what kind of range would we expect a rail gun to engage at?

I've read up to 100 miles. They will have seeker rounds, but are such high velocity that no explosive is used. Additionally, supposedly, they can target incoming missiles and AC at shorter ranges.



mikmykWS -> RE: What are HARPOON missiles good for? (10/24/2016 5:32:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat


quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

Getting a bit OT but what kind of range would we expect a rail gun to engage at?

I've read up to 100 miles. They will have seeker rounds, but are such high velocity that no explosive is used. Additionally, supposedly, they can target incoming missiles and AC at shorter ranges.


We are looking at this soon.If you guys can find some stats somewhere we'll try and get them in there.

Mike



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