RE: Four Seasons with Models (Full Version)

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ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 7:36:48 AM)

auto upgrade is when you via the OOB screen click on a button to upgrade everything that can be upgraded.

EDIT: Perhaps this is a bug Vic introduced with his new version?



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 8:11:01 AM)

OK, now I know what you mean. I never really used that feature as I kind of like to keep track of the supplies.

I did a test with this, and it worked as I think it is supposed to. That is, I started a random game and made a light tank model. I produced it and made a unit. I then researched Light Tank II and upgraded the model. In the OOB screen, I clicked the "Auto Upgrade" button, and it upgraded both the standard Light Tanks and the model. I also checked with improvements, and it seems to be working. I also checked if it was a unit identified in the TOE, and it also worked. If you want, you can send me the file, and I can take a look. Send me a PM and we can interchange contact info.



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 11:54:14 AM)

A complete use up of your supplies could happen if the SFT is set to upgrade to itself...



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 1:34:37 PM)

This time when I set up the game I remembered to change it to loadable for the editor.

Checked game.

Combat Engineer I is set to upgrade to Combat Engineer II. Combat Engineer II is set to upgrade to -1 (cannot be upgraded--I have not researched so the upgrade is not available yet).
My light tank is set to upgrade to itself.
My modeled dive bomber and fighter are set to upgrade to -1. (have not researched so upgrades are not available). Will research the upgrade and recheck to see if it upgrades correctly--is this done in the event code?.

EDIT: Checked the event code and SFT upgrade to is set in event code. Don't know what the error is as I did not really look at the coding. Just found where it says to change upgrade to for preexisting model to new model. I'll let the original coder correct it--as my fix would not be "official".

EDIT2: Restarted turn twice...
First time I upgraded model from NAMEFighter I to NAMEFighter II....old model points to new model...new model points to -1. Researched Fighter II.

Second time I upgraded model from NAMELITETANK I to NAMELITETANK II...old model points to new model...new model points to OLD model. Researched LIGHT TANK III. (NAMELITETANK I had been made with Light Tank II researched.)




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 2:38:30 PM)

Actually, the new model pointing to -1 is not a problem. When you start with a model, say it is the Light Tank Faust, the model doesn't actually have a path to upgrade to yet, so it to will point to -1 for the upgrade. When you research Light Tank II, then in the modeler, you upgrade the Faust to Faust II. At this point, Faust I will show that it can upgrade to Faust II, and Faust II will have -1 for its upgrade. When you research Light Tank III, and upgrade the model to Faust III, then Faust II will show that it can upgrade to Faust III, and Faust III will have -1 for its upgrade. This is because the Faust IV SFT doesn't exist yet. The same should be for your Combat Engineer II.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/28/2017 7:28:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

Actually, the new model pointing to -1 is not a problem. When you start with a model, say it is the Light Tank Faust, the model doesn't actually have a path to upgrade to yet, so it to will point to -1 for the upgrade. When you research Light Tank II, then in the modeler, you upgrade the Faust to Faust II. At this point, Faust I will show that it can upgrade to Faust II, and Faust II will have -1 for its upgrade. When you research Light Tank III, and upgrade the model to Faust III, then Faust II will show that it can upgrade to Faust III, and Faust III will have -1 for its upgrade. This is because the Faust IV SFT doesn't exist yet. The same should be for your Combat Engineer II.


But that is not what is happening. I agree that -1 is not the problem--what it is pointing to is the problem.
When I first upgrade to Faust I it points to Faust I as the upgrade NOT -1.
Faust I is pointing to Faust II after I research Light Tank X and upgrade to Faust II. Faust II is pointing to Faust I...not -1..
Combat Engineers work but tanks do not. It appears that Fighters also work.

EDIT: that means somewhere in the coding tank is set to point to itself instead of -1...and new versions are set to point to the wrong place.

Not sure why Dive Bombers are even in the model area since the model only uses the dive bomber research to upgrade the Dive Bomber Model...and does not use any of the improvements available in the research area (although ground attack might be nice).



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/29/2017 4:50:59 AM)

Funny, I don't see this behavior. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen though. The only thing I can surmise is that it could be an initialization issue. My assumption is that as the model is created, several variables are copied over. Or they have an initial value, say zero, but in some cases, this isn't the actual default. At any rate, I modified things to v1.1.9b, which I have uploaded, where I explicitly set "upgrade to" for a new model to be -1. This hopefully will fix this issue.

As for dive bombers, when I get back in three weeks, I'll look at improving dive bomber capabilities. Right, now, the reason for them being models is the carrier dive bomber and carrier torpedo bomber alterations. This allows you to make "lighter" dive bomber to use on carriers as well as torpedo attack plans, which are specialized in attacking surface ships.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/29/2017 5:51:03 PM)

I downloaded version 1.1.9b and tanks still point to themselves to upgrade...



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/30/2017 2:54:03 AM)

Sorry, I don't see anything like this. Or I am completely misunderstanding you. When I create a light tank model, the first one has no upgrade possible. When, I research Light Tank II, I upgrade the model, and the previous SFT can be upgraded to this new SFT. Pretty much as I expect it to. Could you send me you save file to [edit: removed edit]? I can't guarantee that I can do much though, as I am kind off and on right now for the next three weeks. But, I will look.



ernieschwitz -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/30/2017 6:11:49 AM)

I think he is talking about the Light Tank I, before a model is made.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (7/30/2017 1:13:47 PM)

My email program seems unable to handle a file in a timely manner or my ISP keeps failing. I will be calling tech support today so I can email it to Ormand. I zipped it to lessen it's size to 1.8M but that seems to big...but will be checking on that.

Here is the email text that I will be sending if I can work out the problem.

Note the attached game was played with my own version of 1.1.9b US ...the only things I changed were the initial production (produced only supplies and PP)...and added some of my own units to the start Rules (artillery only unit, HQ unit for all cities--wanted to make just a few extra like about 1 for every 5th city but could not figure out how to do that--outside of an event). I also used CHEAP research since that was what I wanted to test. BTW--I ignored what was happening on the front since I was not testing that--normally I move all my units to the border as fast as I can.

As you can see that all the I's point to the II's and the II's point to nothing plus the II's point to the III's and the III's point to nothing...this is as it should be BUT

Chamberlain Heavy Tank points to itself....and the SP-Art points to itself.

When I first developed the other ORIGINAL tanks (first models) they also pointed to themselves after a new turn started--example not visible since model II has been developed.
The Ames MT I and the Forrest SPAA I both pointed to themselves instead of to nothing. NOTE: the I was not there until the II was developed.

NOTICE: zipped file to make it smaller...it unzips as normal at2 file.



MnrSnor -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/1/2017 10:49:36 AM)

Hey there! I really like to use your mod, the depth and effort you've put in it is really amazing!
I have a small request, though. Would it be possible to instead of using the NAVO symbols, use the symbols present in the vanilla game instead? A simple toggle or something? You see, I'm a military noob so to say, and the NAVO symbols don't mean anything to me and thus feel a bit... empty...? So I'd like to be able to use the vanilla symbols instead (on the campaign map, and in the battle screen).

If you don't have the time, or don't wish to spend it on this, that's fine! It's your mod after all, but I'd be grateful if you'd give it a thought.

All the best!



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/1/2017 10:47:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

My email program seems unable to handle a file in a timely manner or my ISP keeps failing. I will be calling tech support today so I can email it to Ormand. I zipped it to lessen it's size to 1.8M but that seems to big...but will be checking on that.

Here is the email text that I will be sending if I can work out the problem.

Note the attached game was played with my own version of 1.1.9b US ...the only things I changed were the initial production (produced only supplies and PP)...and added some of my own units to the start Rules (artillery only unit, HQ unit for all cities--wanted to make just a few extra like about 1 for every 5th city but could not figure out how to do that--outside of an event). I also used CHEAP research since that was what I wanted to test. BTW--I ignored what was happening on the front since I was not testing that--normally I move all my units to the border as fast as I can.

As you can see that all the I's point to the II's and the II's point to nothing plus the II's point to the III's and the III's point to nothing...this is as it should be BUT

Chamberlain Heavy Tank points to itself....and the SP-Art points to itself.

When I first developed the other ORIGINAL tanks (first models) they also pointed to themselves after a new turn started--example not visible since model II has been developed.
The Ames MT I and the Forrest SPAA I both pointed to themselves instead of to nothing. NOTE: the I was not there until the II was developed.

NOTICE: zipped file to make it smaller...it unzips as normal at2 file.



Got it all. And, I think you RAM is definitely good enough. I will have to try and sort this out. So far, none of my quick tests show this. Unfortunately, as I indicated last week, I have entered a three week period where I don't have much time to work on this. But, come August 22nd we can look at this in detail. What we should do is follow the exact same procedure on our own computers and try to reproduce the issue. I'll get in touch when I come back.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/1/2017 10:52:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MnrSnor

Hey there! I really like to use your mod, the depth and effort you've put in it is really amazing!
I have a small request, though. Would it be possible to instead of using the NAVO symbols, use the symbols present in the vanilla game instead? A simple toggle or something? You see, I'm a military noob so to say, and the NAVO symbols don't mean anything to me and thus feel a bit... empty...? So I'd like to be able to use the vanilla symbols instead (on the campaign map, and in the battle screen).

If you don't have the time, or don't wish to spend it on this, that's fine! It's your mod after all, but I'd be grateful if you'd give it a thought.

All the best!


This is probably doable. Although, it couldn't be a switch, but an alternative set. It would apply to both the SFTypes and the TOE system since I am using the same set of NATO symbols. I have to say that I never like the hockey player engineers! I'll look at this in three weeks.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/2/2017 2:59:00 AM)

I'll be heading out to see the eclipse on the 14th and will not be returning until the 24th. My computer weighs about 25 lbs and requires a plug and other stuff so it's not portable. So I will be computer less for the time I am away...I'll be doing some white water rafting and other stuff -- like going to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons...and other stuff--have not really looked at the trip itinerary but I will before I leave. All I am sure about is that on the 21st (eclipse day) I will be somewhere near Jackson Hole WY.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/6/2017 3:43:51 PM)

Models problem seems to be related to improvements. Whenever I make an improvement it points to itself for upgrading. If I create a unit, improve it, and then upgrade it it seems to point correctly to -1... If I upgrade with improvements most of the time it points to itself. So I get around the problem by improving the model and then upgrading. I can do this in the same turn by researching the upgrades AFTER I model the improvements. So the order is

Research Improvements.
Model Improvements.
Research Upgrades.
Model Upgrades.

I wonder if the problem can be resolved by changing the order the models are created by the events code???



As a side note I've created a new "factory"--I call it Military Academy...it produces only staff..I restricted it's use by making it it's own item type and setting the distance between Military Academies to 99. I added the new staff category to cities so they can still produce staff via something like Officer Candidate Schools (OCS).



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/7/2017 1:17:45 PM)

Other models:

Fighter alteration to Fighter Bomber keeps same name as fighter making two models with same name.
No Carrier variant for fighters...only dive bomber to carrier torpedo bomber and carrier dive bomber.
SP-AA says that you will get to modify Light Tanks to SP-AA but you don't...need light AA model (like the M-16 (quad 50 cal on halftrack).
May need more names to eliminate the duplication of names for different models.



ArmouredLion -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/12/2017 7:24:44 PM)

Hey, playing a Four Seasons game and Pine Woods has build road as false. But the starting map had roads on Pine Woods... so, I'm uncertain if dem' Pine Woods are roadable or not roadable..



ArmouredLion -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/13/2017 7:19:01 PM)

On a side note, Ormand. What is the stack max on a hex before you suffer over stack penalties? When I click on the rules tab, it says 120. Is taht correct? Thanks....



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/15/2017 6:09:57 PM)

Just a quick check in. Thanks for the info and feedback. I thought i had fixed the pine woods problem. At any rate, I will be back to fix things on the 21st.

As for stacking, yes, 120 is the maximum stack penalty. The idea was that 60 stack points might make an optimal unit, and allow you to stack two in a hex. This helps the AI out some. Generally, you can have 120 stack points in defense of a single hex. If you limit attacks to 60 stack points from a single hex, then you run into the problem that the AI has trouble attacking a double stack hex, and had a tendency to commit suicide with poorly coordinated attacks as it has a hard time picking a point where it should go all-in with a heavy attack to create a breakthrough. At least, this was an observation I had. With newer versions, the AI tends not to do the suicide attacks, but then the front goes static.

Anyway, off again, and back to work on this after the 21st.



KPACHblN -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/21/2017 11:50:36 PM)

I'm always getting these error messages for every AI player while they are taking their turn. What am I doing wrong?


---------------------------
Advanced Tactics : Gold Edition
---------------------------
Error in Check command in event # 43 on line nr # 159
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

AND

---------------------------
Advanced Tactics : Gold Edition
---------------------------
Error in Check command in event # 43 on line nr # 163
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/25/2017 3:12:59 PM)

I have uploaded v1.1.13 (8:00 AM PDT Friday 8/25 - and removed the one I put up for ATG v225, which is too obsolete now). This version requires ATG v227 or higher. Sorry it took a little while, this has some changes and tweaks:

List:

1. Fixed self-update issue. This did indeed have to do with improvements and upgrades. Improvements are applied to each model. An upgrade is like a new model, so the upgrade happens and then all the improvements are applied, except that the SFT number doesn't change. I was expecting the improvement to be based on a new SFT.

2. To be consistent with the concept, I made it impossible to conduct amphibious assaults and paradrops on storm hexes.

3. The roads in pine woods was fixed before, and is here.

4. Increased production cost of halftracks and trucks.

5. Decreased carry capacity for trucks from 6 to 4.

6. Weight for artillery is 2 for Artillery I & II, it is 3 and 4 for Artillery III and IV. This way you can use horses for I & II, but not for III & IV. The idea being that III & IV introduce bigger guns that horses will have a hard time with. This will affect how you go forward with artillery. No I & II are effectively separate SFTs with Artillery I as the reinforcement model for TOE purposes, while III & IV use Artillery III as their reinforcement model for TOE. However, you can upgrade from II -> III, so beware with auto-upgrade.

7. Self-propelled infantry guns and artillery and mobile anti-aircraft are no longer alterations to a tank model, but their own SFT and item, without a model. I did this because of the improvements issue (no point improving tank combat for artillery) and the fact that I couldn't control upgrades with new technology for the guns. The advantages of self-propelled are that they don't need a truck to move them, so fewer stack points, and more hitpoints.

8. I tweaked hitpoints for vehicles. I grew concerned with the structure that I borrowed from DC2, where the hitpoints against infantry were 1/2. For halftracks this caused a strange feature where the halftrack could absorb a hit for the infantry it was carrying, but actually have less hitpoints than the infantry it was protecting.

9. I think the Carrier fighter alteration is working OK, check again.

10. Introduced a new SFT "Tracked Landing Vehicle" that requires "Halftrack II" and "Amphibious Assault Theory" techs. This is essentially a slower (90%) and slightly more expensive Halftrack I that has combat doubled on beach hexes, so it can be useful in an amphibious attack.

Other notes.

1. For now, the mobile AA is based on the Möbelwagen or Wirbelwind concept, which uses a Panzer IV chasis, as opposed to mounting AA on a halftrack. I may bring this in at some point.

2. Due to a quirk in the model system, it is possible to have old models that get improved and are still buildable, but are dead ends. So, watch out for this. If you upgrade a model, lets say Tiger C, this will make the previous model a Tiger iC and the new one Tiger iiC. At this point, you will have old Tiger iC tanks that you can upgrade to Tiger iiC. Also, you can no longer produce the Tiger iC; only the Tiger iiC. However, if you research an improvement, such as Tank Combat III, you will be able to apply the improvement to the Tiger iC, making a Tiger iD model that can now be produced. However, it cannot be upgraded and is a model dead end. In general, the upgrade path is through the model improvement path A -> B -> C, and then to iiC. There is this quirk that I don't see a fix for by modding.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/25/2017 3:15:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KPACHblN

I'm always getting these error messages for every AI player while they are taking their turn. What am I doing wrong?


---------------------------
Advanced Tactics : Gold Edition
---------------------------
Error in Check command in event # 43 on line nr # 159
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

AND

---------------------------
Advanced Tactics : Gold Edition
---------------------------
Error in Check command in event # 43 on line nr # 163
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------



As for this please download v1.1.13 and try again. Also, be sure to use ATG v227+. The event this quotes should be the one where the AI gets free upgrades to raw and oil hexes. However, it only has 149 lines.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/25/2017 3:17:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

As for stacking, yes, 120 is the maximum stack penalty. The idea was that 60 stack points might make an optimal unit, and allow you to stack two in a hex. This helps the AI out some. Generally, you can have 120 stack points in defense of a single hex. If you limit attacks to 60 stack points from a single hex, then you run into the problem that the AI has trouble attacking a double stack hex, and had a tendency to commit suicide with poorly coordinated attacks as it has a hard time picking a point where it should go all-in with a heavy attack to create a breakthrough. At least, this was an observation I had. With newer versions, the AI tends not to do the suicide attacks, but then the front goes static.



Correction -

The maximum stack points for attack from a single hex is 60. The maximum stack points before penalties is 110.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/26/2017 3:44:05 PM)

I'm back...saw great but fast eclipse. White water rafting was lots of fun...only one of our 80 some people in my group was thrown out of the rafts (we had `12 of them) and they had only minor problem pulling the person back into the raft--I got drenched but it dried quickly (I was not the one thrown out of the raft). Jet boat white water was interesting but no match for the rafting. Saw some awesome landscape and Old Faithful and waterfalls.

I'll be checking out the new version and reporting any problems I run into.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/26/2017 6:28:40 PM)

For some reason, the v1.1.13 file I uploaded was missing some face pictures. UGH! I uploaded a fix, and gave it a new version name v1.1.14 so that there would be no confusion in the atzip files. The at2 files are the same, but some graphics had to be added.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/26/2017 6:58:28 PM)

Okay....

Problem 1: Researched Flak I, Medium Tank I, Mobile Anti Aircraft Theory....still don't get mobile AA units.

Problem 2: Research Artillery I, Medium Tank I & Heavy Tank I, Self Propelled Artillery Theory....still don't get SP Artillery.

Problem 3: Fighters still cannot make Carrier based Fighters (can still make DB versions).

Don't know about the others since I did not research the theories...

Nor do I get research things so I can research them although I don't think research is needed for mobile AA and SP Artillery...other than the above researched items.



Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/26/2017 8:13:04 PM)

Thanks for the quick feedback. I have uploaded a version v.1.15.

I am not sure, but perhaps the reason you didn't find the self-propelled pieces is based on a question of what are they: guns or vehicles? When they were based on a tank model, they were vehicles as this was what they were based on, and couldn't be changed. In this version they are still vehicles. So, they should be available under the vehicle tab.

That said, I see that I accidentally left self-propelled arty requiring heavy tanks. I changed this to medium tanks.

A few other fixes:
1. Engineer weight changed from 1 -> 2 (this was the original intention). Changed the start unit to have 8 trucks.
2. Cavalry weight changed from 3 -> 4.
3. Fixed the EU file as some of the SFT pictures and peoples got out of whack.
4. Introduced an error in SH implementing the climate event.

As for carrier fighters. I don't understand the issue. I start a game, research carrier operations, create a fighter model, and then can chose to alter the model. I get two options: increase ground support, and carrier fighter. Then, when I make the model, I go to a city and can produce the item. I have tried several combination of possible ways to make the model, and it seems to work. How about sending me an scenario (making it editable) where you have this problem. I'll get to it tonight.



LJBurstyn -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/27/2017 2:13:18 PM)

I wish I could send you a scenario but right now I cannot seem to upload ANYTHING--even emails. DARN. another call to tech support of my ISP in my near future..
Can the amphibious halftrack move on the sea hexes on it's own or does it require being loaded onto cargoships and unloaded like marines? Oh well, I guess I could just try.

Well I can now build SP Artillery and Mobile AA units...thanks for the quick fix.




Ormand -> RE: Four Seasons with Models (8/27/2017 3:11:31 PM)

Unfortunately, the LVTs are land units, and can't move at sea. This is something I tried a year ago and it seemed to work at first, but if I recall the units get trapped at sea and unmovable. It seems that the game is pretty binary in this regard. Land or sea. But, I'll have to remind myself what happened. The main feature for them is to provide protection to infantry and have higher combat on beach hexes. Op[timally, it would be done for amphibious assaults themselves, but this can't be done in the game. This is controlled by a rulevar so it affects every unit the same.



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