RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (Full Version)

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Lubaru -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 1:14:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Thanks guys. I like the minimalist idea. My findings conform to Wild Willie2. I am trying to do this in the context of a community scenario lasting about 1 day. Given the fire power required, my intended "skirmish" would escalate into a major conflict. Well that's up to me to design. But at least I know I am not missing something simple like the OP outlined. Glad I circled back on this. BTW has the S-400 ever engaged a hostile target? What is it's efficacy based on?

Kevin

quote:

BTW has the S-400 ever engaged a hostile target? What is it's efficacy based on?


Good question. Just what is the basis for this awesome reputation. It is difficult to glean from the internet, since there is a lot of hype and unproven information both supporting the reputation and trying to bash it. Some mention the missiles incredible speed, but couldn't that be exploited and turned to the target pilots advantage with high g maneuvers. And could the missile sensors, controls, and body itself hold up under the incredible stress and g load from a sharp turn with those speeds. With no combat record there must be some specific unclassified information about the system that confirms at least some of its reputation. Can someone-in layman's terms-list a couple of its features that make it so revolutionary.....Yeah that's the question I was looking for- "What makes it revolutionary?"



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 5:16:07 AM)

simultaneous target engagement capability
good range
reasonable mobility
probably the best self-defence capability in the world
scalable, capable of integration with many other recent russian SAM/SHORAD systems (sa-15/11/17)

what made the SA-6 revolutionary over the SA-2? it's just better, basically. way better.

edit: i should clarify that to me it's not really "revolutionary"
the SA-2 was revolutionary; it changed how both defender and attacker operated in enormous and far-reaching ways. the S-400 is just the S-300 but better, which was just the SA-6 but better, etc. it's capabilities are expanded, but it's still basically an area denial long range radar SAM system, cast in the mold of the SA-2. that doesn't mean that it's bad, or nonthreatening, but it does mean that it doesn't really qualify as revolutionary, imo.



Dimitris -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 6:27:30 AM)

It is reportedly also (at least according to the consensus in the 'Crows community AFAIK) quite hard to jam. Its SAGG guidance is essentially TVM+ (both missile and ground controller process the target data and calculate intercept course, then compare/merge their results) and TVM has a notorious anti-jam reputation to begin with.

Fun anecdote: During Odyssey Dawn, at a moment where almost half of NATO air was prowling over Libyan airspace, someone mistakenly identified a ground radar emission as a "Flap Lid" (popular tracking/FC radar on S-300P series) and spread the word. Immediately almost all aircraft exited the theater at max speed. (Yes, the "almost" part got me curious too).



Galahad78 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 12:15:21 PM)

The SA-21 family is very hard to beat...except if you are playing on the Russian side and the SA-21 is your own [:@][:@]



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 12:26:48 PM)


quote:

reputation


That's the point of it's use in an old fashion anti access area denial role geopolitically. From a game play POV, I hesitate to place a battalion on the map since they so dominate the battle space and take so much firepower to neutralize. Short of all out war, NATO would stay clear based on how they operate within Command. This may very well be the correct interpretation. I just have this nagging feeling I am missing some more efficient tactic that NATO has up it's sleeve. I sand boxed turning off their radar with a "cyber attack" for 30 mins. That was exciting.

Kevin



Dimitris -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 2:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

quote:

reputation


That's the point of it's use in an old fashion anti access area denial role geopolitically. From a game play POV, I hesitate to place a battalion on the map since they so dominate the battle space and take so much firepower to neutralize. Short of all out war, NATO would stay clear based on how they operate within Command. This may very well be the correct interpretation. I just have this nagging feeling I am missing some more efficient tactic that NATO has up it's sleeve. I sand boxed turning off their radar with a "cyber attack" for 30 mins. That was exciting.

Kevin


See a Growler-vs-Growler example from our v1.10 notes: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4091

Given that both active missiles of the S-400 system still have an uncertain operational status (9M96M is still in dev hell and 40N6 is only entering service this year IIRC), the reliance of the 48N6xx family on weapon illumination is a potentially fatal flaw which can be exploited, as in that example.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 3:57:38 PM)

Thanks. I remember reading that when I first started. Then I searched to see if the Navy and USAF were partnering and found (low and behold) http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/850587/growlers-soar-with-b-1s-around-ellsworth-afb.aspx

I guess it begs the question: are there enough Gowlers to go around to operate jointly with the AF in the case of a crisis. Interesting to see how the AF is handling EW. There seems to be a gap.

Kevin



DrRansom -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 6:35:38 PM)

Also, when thinking about US performance against a Russian system, consider that the most modern Russian air defenses the US has faced are late 1970s. The US has no combat experience against anything from the 1980s onward.

Furthermore, I think that system mobility is being underrated on an operational level. From what I've read on USAF purchasing decisions, rapid time to target weapons are becoming very popular.



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 8:55:39 PM)

well, mobility is nice of course but it still takes at least an hour as far as i know. there are mobile SAMs and "mobile" SAMs. the mobility aspect is more of a strategic boon then a tactical one. i doubt very much for instance that you could somehow pack up and move the battalion in the time it takes for a wall of SDBs to approach. the mobility is more for introducing some uncertainty into your position from an intelligence perspective, shifting to cover advancing troops and to defray steerpoint-targeted strikes within a certain window. (if you plan a strike 12 hours before it sorties the thing may have just moved within that window)

AFAIK this doesn't apply to SA-15/17/11 who are far more mobile TELAR style treaded vehicles who can quite easily shuffle around in real time to avoid incoming ordnance.

anyway the whole system is pretty threatening but there are ways to deal with it, just like it's ancestors. a competitive and recent area denial system has always been a pain, and that includes pretty much every single one of the S-400's ancestors in their own time period. see: SA-2 ring around hanoi '69



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/1/2017 9:09:33 PM)

Good point on mobility. Probably difficult to model (roads, troop training etc ...) without some sort of fudge factor. We started to look into mobility via lua code. Tedious. Not sure if S-400 is underrated per se until we see it in action. It's hard to fathom the Pentagon would not have a tactic to defeat the one and only threat Russia has apart from Nukes. That's why I scratch my head trying devise a economical strike that succeeds.

Kevin



Lubaru -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 6:02:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

simultaneous target engagement capability
good range
reasonable mobility
probably the best self-defence capability in the world
scalable, capable of integration with many other recent russian SAM/SHORAD systems (sa-15/11/17)

what made the SA-6 revolutionary over the SA-2? it's just better, basically. way better.

edit: i should clarify that to me it's not really "revolutionary"
the SA-2 was revolutionary; it changed how both defender and attacker operated in enormous and far-reaching ways. the S-400 is just the S-300 but better, which was just the SA-6 but better, etc. it's capabilities are expanded, but it's still basically an area denial long range radar SAM system, cast in the mold of the SA-2. that doesn't mean that it's bad, or nonthreatening, but it does mean that it doesn't really qualify as revolutionary, imo.

quote:

simultaneous target engagement capability
good range
reasonable mobility
probably the best self-defence capability in the world
scalable, capable of integration with many other recent russian SAM/SHORAD systems (sa-15/11/17)


Yes I agree with your analysis.Those attributes really only proves it is on a par with other contemporary systems. ie Patriot has good range can simultaneously track and engage multiple targets, etc. But the question I have is not whether or not it is a good system, but what distinguishes it and makes it a world beating system and I have scoured the internet and nothing (excluding the usual hype) in the way of real data or verifiable info that can be compared side by side with other systems is available. My gut feeling is that its capability is really about like Patriot or HQ9, but certainly not world beating to the degree of its reputation.



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 6:32:31 AM)

it's better than the competitors at all the things it's good at*

*this may not actually be true, it's hard to say. conventional wisdom says that it's the best at the things that make a contemporary SAM system good, such as all of those things i listed.



Lubaru -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 6:44:47 AM)

Good point



Lubaru -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 6:50:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

it's better than the competitors at all the things it's good at*

*this may not actually be true, it's hard to say. conventional wisdom says that it's the best at the things that make a contemporary SAM system good, such as all of those things i listed.


Would be interesting to simulate in Command a modern NATO attack against Patriot, then same attack against S-400, and then HQ9 and compare the results. If they are not kinda in the same ball park statistically that would be interesting and somewhat surprising.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 1:55:00 PM)

Getting back to the OP's question about Sa-21a/b systems engaging stealthy targets from more then 100 miles.

The OP was most likely referring to the Crimean Rivers scenario where the Sa-21a/b system is engaging F-22's and JASM's from more then 100 miles. The Sa-21 can engage these targets because they get spotted by other systems (most likely the IRST systems on the Su-35 fighters) and then the S-400 simply just lobs long range missiles at them, often with deadly results. From the front, the radar on the SU-35 can spot your stealth fighters from around 25 miles but its far worse from the rear where you can be seen by the IRST sensor from 90+ miles. So circling withing 90 miles of a Su-35 is just asking to get a long range S-400 missile up your tailpipe. IRL, the Su-35 does not have this capacity as it doesn't have a datalink, but due to game mechanics this works in game (It was actually big news when a cutting edge F-35 managed to guide a SM-6 missile to an air target just a few months ago). The trick to avoiding this is to absolutely 100% kill all Su-35's, within 45 degrees of pointing their nose at you, within 90 miles before turning your backside at them (hint, sneak up on individual fighters, launch 4 AMRAAM's at them from max range and then keep on flying toward the target at 350 knts until you kill it).

There are several way to defeat this scenario, but these all more or less center on two phases:

A) kill OR distract the patrolling Su-35 fighters so your weapons can hit their targets more or less unseen.
B) Have the S-400 systems expend their missiles so you can engage the patrolling Su-35 fighters much more efficient.

There are several ways to achieve these goals. The most easy way I found for the S-400 to expend most of its missiles is to spam MALD's at it until it runs dry. If you use all your ready MALD loaded carrier and land based AC for this at the beginning of the scenario (including the B-52's), you can achieve this goal within 5 hours of the beginning of the scenario. After this, you can go Su-35 hunting with your F-22's and F-35's until a decent dent has been made in this population. To finish things up, have a 120 tomahawk missile strike come in from the south west to distract the remaining Su-35's while your B1's unleash a decapitation JASM strike at the Crimean based runways and radar systems FROM THE NORTH. You can then finish things up with either with a massive follow on B1 strike from the north 20 hours later or by equipping the F35's with JASM's and by striking from the south east.
Mix in the non stealthy storm shadow equipped fighters from the west (either to distract the Su-35's or if these are already decimated, to take out more targets) however you like.

I generally loose only about 10 AC during this scenario if you use these tactics (mostly F-15 and F-16 fighters in air to air combat over the Med and 2-3 stealth fighters while intercepting PAK sweeps).

W.



Kitchens Sink -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 2:43:27 PM)

I should probably revisit and revise that scenario. With all the recent System and Database changes, it could probably use some tweaking....like some random events so repeat players will still be challenged [:D]

But I do have a question, what were your results/losses the FIRST time you played it..before you figured out the tactics with the Su-35's and decoys?



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 3:03:38 PM)

Pff, cant remember precisely but I think it was in the range of 30-35 AC or so lost, mostly to the S-400 and the Mig-31 and PAK sweeps (see link). I actually had to restart it several times because I did not know if I could still win with those losses. I really like that scenario btw and have replayed it about eight or nine times by now.

You really outdid yourself on this one KS.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3934294&mpage=1&key=crimean%2Criver�



Kitchens Sink -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 3:11:47 PM)

Thanks, glad you are enjoying it.

One BIG mistake I made was to have all of the PAK-FA's blaring out their radars, shouting "I'm right here!" I think having most of them in stealth mode would make a big difference.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 3:34:36 PM)

Yes, that would make things a bit more complicated indeed. But I generally detect the PAK's on radar before they cross the Turkish coastline. The problem is that these things are really good at evading AMRAAM's and they carry a lot of weapons to shoot back with, especially at intermediate and close range...



peterc100248 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 3:43:53 PM)

I have done extensive play testing using the little "Growler vs Growler" scenario of the SA-21 vs various aircraft and tactics. Here are some of my notes:

1. The EA-18G NGJ is extremely effective (in CMANO) at preventing launch of the SA-21 system when using active jamming and at close range to the missile. I'll let you do your own measurements on my little scenario.

2. The secret to attacking any SAM system is altitude. The higher you are, the easier it is to get shot down. Take a look at the physics involved in detection with radar (horizon + 10%) or visual IR systems (horizon depending on atmospheric conditions) here:

http://www.qsl.net/w4sat/horizon.htm

This is just a simple calculator that allows you to put in varying heights for antennas to "see" each other. Set SAM height on one and aircraft height on the other. The results are absolute - beyond those distances requires OTH targeting or some other system at high altitude.

3. In this scenario, you can simulate a very near future strategy to defeat the missile by flying the USAF F-35s at MIN altitude and terrain following. They are loaded with JASSMs. Bring the aircraft to 200 ft AGL and launch. The missiles fly at 60 ft AGL. There is very little defense against such an attack without optical/laser systems. (IRST does not work well when the target aspect is head on)

Forgot - Run the scenario without the EA-18Gs and see the difference. One thing to consider. I looked high and low and cannot find a single real-world report of an authenticated SA-21 being launched in a combat setting. Until then, much of what is known about it may be correct, more likely not so good. The real world problem is far more complex.

Here is the little test scenario:




wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 4:09:11 PM)

Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult ;)




Filitch -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 6:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult ;)

And add 55Zh6M Nebo M suite (#1848, #1847, #1847 in CMANO DB) to radar support, as in real life [:)]
Modern war is not a one-on-one fight, it is a war of systems. Attacks ACs, EW ACs, air dominance fighters, AWACS ACs from one side and SAMs, radars, EW systems and interceptors ACs from other.



peterc100248 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/2/2017 10:05:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Filitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
Yes, you can approach a radar unseen by flying beneath it's radar horizon and stealthy cruise missiles are about the only way to take down an SA-21a/b system. Although put some Sa-22's around it and have some fighters flying CAP above it and things get a whole lot more difficult ;)

And add 55Zh6M Nebo M suite (#1848, #1847, #1847 in CMANO DB) to radar support, as in real life [:)]
Modern war is not a one-on-one fight, it is a war of systems. Attacks ACs, EW ACs, air dominance fighters, AWACS ACs from one side and SAMs, radars, EW systems and interceptors ACs from other.


Very true. The only countermeasure to NOE target approaches though is still antenna height. The horizon is the horizon - only by extending your electromagnetic horizon can you spot targets at very low altitudes. That demands antenna height. Even OTH systems have "blind spots" in that HF signals bounce off the ionosphere differently all the time. Kind of like skipping a stone on a pond. You can't tell exactly when the stone will finally stop skipping across the water.

The SA-21 falls rather easily when alone. I have been able to take out the missile systems with as few as 5 JASSM's using the 3 EA-18Gs.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/3/2017 12:55:06 AM)

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin



Dysta -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/3/2017 2:10:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin

I presumed the topic is about SA-21A/B (missiles used by S-400), rather than an entire system involved with Panstir-S and/or Vitayz (S-350E) accompanied.

Otherwise, there will not be so many questions about jamming.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/3/2017 12:50:14 PM)

I am interested in the entire system. Or, more specifically, what's been installed in Kaliningrad.

Kevin



peterc100248 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/4/2017 12:54:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Couple of questions: are you guys experimenting against a full battalion of the S400 system or something less? Additionally, can the tactics detailed above be applied to the computer player following a scenario designer's mission sequencing? In other words, a hands off attack.

Kevin

Sorry it took a while to reply. I have used the tactics I developed in the little Growler vs Growler scenario in a few other scenarios that have several SA-21 batteries. Nothing against much larger scale stuff.

In my opinion, the strike AI, while excellent, is really not capable of handling such intensive tactics successfully. I ingress at MIN altitude using terrain following techniques, which yields 80 ft AGL over the ocean, pop up momentarily to 200 ft AGL to launch the JASSMs, then immediately return to MIN and TFR for egress. I may have missed that in the mission editor, but then maybe someone could show how to accomplish that reliably.



Dysta -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/4/2017 3:56:35 AM)

I will spend some time on multi-SAM defense test, with intensive surges or something to make holes at them.

My estimation is the extra Pantsir and Vitzya will not make much of different, because either is too short ranged to intercept JASSM, or those supplemental radars are jammed.



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/4/2017 9:54:32 AM)

i'm interested in the results. pushing on the OODA loop instead of the self-defense capability is certainly a new and... interesting strategy.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/4/2017 2:42:00 PM)

quote:

I ingress at MIN altitude using terrain following techniques, which yields 80 ft AGL over the ocean, pop up momentarily to 200 ft AGL to launch the JASSMs


Thanks, I will give that a try both by hand and hands off (Mission editor + lua as needed).

Kevin

Edit: Those manpads are very pesky!



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