RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (Full Version)

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shania -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 9:36:00 AM)

In last red flag, F-35 with support (like growler, etc) can get close enough (and not been targeted) to drop GBU-31 on advanced IADS, like s-300/400.

This is in limited space, with aggressors carrying IRST pods, multiple lives.



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 10:16:00 AM)

Hi there,

As the latest reports from Red Flag stated that the F-35 in its current configuration where taking out the most modern Russian SAM systems with just free fall weapons, I decided to run some tests in Command.

I tested one on one engagements between a Jamming F-35 (although with some extra Growler support) and the most modern Russian SAM systems and the outcome was quite interesting.

Proficiency of both sides: regular. Conditions: daytime, no clouds.

F35 v. Sa-23 Gladiator- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 60 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-23 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-26- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 32 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-26 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-17 Grizzly- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 31 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-17 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-25- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 69 miles, F-35 detected at 8 miles via IR camera, AC and SBD/LJDAM destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-20a Gargoyle- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 81 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-20a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-12a Gladiator- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 81 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-12a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-10b Grumble- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 42 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-10b destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-21a Growler- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 116 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-21a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-21a/b Growler- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 120 miles, F-35 detected at 36 miles, AC and SBD/LJDAM destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-22 Greyhound- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 15 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-22 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-8b Gecko- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 10 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-8b destroyed.

So we can basically conclude that the in a one v. one situation, a jamming F-35 with some growler support can take out over 80% of the most modern Russian SAM systems with just bombs. Only the systems with the best radars and self-guided radar homing missiles (Sa-21a/b) or with extremely good IR systems (Sa-25) can stand up to it in a one v. one situation.

I personally think this is very useful to know while planning operations.

W.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 12:46:25 PM)

Thanks. In your testing, what was the ratio of the number of incoming F-35's to the number of available individual outgoing missiles (SAMs)? The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin

Edit: I forgot to asked if any of those pesky Manpads were deployed?



Raptorx7_slith -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 1:01:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin


Thats a really good point, why does the air force rely on the growler? They have compass call and the like but my understanding is that the growler is the best dedicated OEW platform right now. F-35 is obviously a choice but its strange that a dedicated platform doesn't exist.

Does anyone know why an EF-15 been made or drawn up, or the growler pods being put on some other air-frame for the USAF?



mikmykWS -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 1:03:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Thanks. In your testing, what was the ratio of the number of incoming F-35's to the number of available individual outgoing missiles (SAMs)? The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin


F-35 seems to have some internal OECM capability. We've updated the latest db to reflect that.

US Navy has 13 (maybe 14) Growler Sqdns in service with 5 Aircraft per squadron/carrier.

I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.

Mike



Cik -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 1:27:20 PM)

the real question is: are growlers the best OECM platform in existence right now, and if so, why is that? you'd think anything the growler could mount ECM-wise the F-35 could as well. perhaps the F35 can't output enough power with it's single powerplant, or the capability just isn't integrated yet due to early stages?



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 1:28:49 PM)


quote:

I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.


That would be cool. Thanks.



lowchi -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 3:35:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin


I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.

That would be cool. Thanks.


I always notice the lack of jamming options when playing pure USAF scenarios. Just look at the numbers. As mike said the navy has about 100 Growlers. The main flying branch has about 14 EC-130H Compass call...
There are rumors in aviation forums that the secretive RQ-180 will have jamming capability, but than again nobody knows if this thing really exists.

I wouldnt be suprised if the USAF has some aces up theire sleeves. We will have to see when and if something emerges from the "black world"...



DrRansom -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 4:08:48 PM)

The USAF now has expressed interest in a penetrating EW capability. That would indicate that the USAF doesn't have the capability that it wished for.



Gunner98 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 4:30:55 PM)

This article is a bit dated but I recall that in the 90's the USAF was playing with EA-6Bs, and it seems that at least in the schoolhouse and limited operations it is doing the same with the EA-18Gs.

Lost but not forgotten perhaps.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2012/September%202012/0912whidbey.aspx

B



peterc100248 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 4:32:36 PM)

For those of you so inclined to read, this is an interesting discussion with a former Prowler/Growler EWO:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/confessions-of-a-us-navy-ea-18g-growler-electronic-warf-1694954599

The EC-130 Compass Call works differently in that it is very specialized in disrupting the inter-node communications between integrated air defense assets. There are some rumors that F-35s have quite a bit more jamming ability than other fighter/strike aircraft.

One lesser known fact about jamming. "Pure" signal jamming is an activity that requires very large amounts of electrical power since you are running high power RF systems. USAF systems all utilize AC generated by the engines - thus their available power is more limited than USN systems which all use external pods with ram-air generators. In other words USN jammer pods each generate their own power and do not draw from the aircraft itself.

I believe the only exception to this was the systems in B-52s during the cold war era.



Sardaukar -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 5:24:22 PM)

SA-21 (S-400) and similar are often with SA-15 Tor or Pantsir-systems, for close-in protection against guided weapons attack. So, test against only S-400 might be bit misleading.



mikmykWS -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 5:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

SA-21 (S-400) and similar are often with SA-15 Tor or Pantsir-systems, for close-in protection against guided weapons attack. So, test against only S-400 might be bit misleading.


Yeah lot of times I'll set up a nearbye battery with WRA's set to shoot down guided weapons only. Very effective. In general you should set your WRA's to shoot at about 90 percent the range anyways so you'd have some curb rider bumping in and out of range trying to the get the AI to waste missiles etc.

Mike



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 5:47:46 PM)

I may have posted this elsewhere. But should be here too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pYoivVByMc

US Pacific Fleet's Electronic Warfare Commander on Capabilities and Threats Jan 2017



peterc100248 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 6:17:52 PM)

I thought I might post the test scenario I've been using. It highlights some things that I think are not generally known. A couple of quick notes:

I created a fictional "super jammer" out of an EC-130H because I wanted one consistent on-station aircraft to jam without having to run off and refuel. So you can assume a heavy jamming situation using NGJ technology.

There are 4 fictional F-35As (headed away, closest to base) equipped with NGJ capability and armed with 2 JASSMs each. Of course these should be launched at 200ft AGL. These 8 missiles are sufficient to take out the SA-21 almost every time.

There are 3 fictional F-35As (inbound to the target sites) equipped with NGJ capability and armed with 8 SDB IIs each. The SDBs should be launched at 10,000 feet as the aircraft are descending. These 24 missiles fail to reach the target every single time as they are shot down by the SA-21s.

Here are some unusual things I discovered. Draw your own conclusions.

1. Offensive ECM in CMANO appears to only protect the platform the pod is on. An SDB coming head-on presents a very small RCS. That, plus the jamming, should render even very advanced radars almost incapable of detecting it until it is very close.

2. In CMANO, weapons and aircraft below the radar horizon are masked, which is correct.

3. In CMANO, weapons above the radar horizon appear to not be protected by ECM - even when right next to the jamming platform.

The best tactic to attack advanced IAD systems, like the SA-21, is still terrain masking.



stilesw -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 6:37:06 PM)

Gunner98, peterc100248,

Thanks for the information. I've posted these items in the "reference" library.

As always, anyone wishing to get access to the library please PM me with your email address and I'll add you to the Dropbox access list.

-Wayne



wild_Willie2 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 7:50:21 PM)

quote:

all use external pods with ram-air generators. In other words USN jammer pods each generate their own power and do not draw from the aircraft itself.

I believe the only exception to this was the systems in B-52s durin


In this scenario it was one F-35 and one Growler v. a single individual SAM system.

W.



kevinkins -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (3/6/2017 10:18:45 PM)


quote:

single individual SAM system.


It's not you. I am just very new to all this. To me "system" is loosely defined. Maybe post the DB reference number(s) to what the F-35 and Growler are attacking or the actual scenario file. It will bring your nice testing results to life. To me a "system" could be entire battalion or something less if well integrated at a level having fewer missiles than a full battalion. You must be engaging something far less than a S-400 battalion.

Thanks.

Kevin




50caliberGhost -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/11/2020 1:52:36 AM)

NakedWeasel has the cheapest and safest solution to destroying vs s400 that i have seen using f22/sdb. I was able to lock onto s400 at 52 miles with sdb. It is cheaper than jassm/b1 and safer and more effective than bol launched harms. The "you brexit you fixit" scenario with overlapping a2ad defense had 4 s300s and 2 s400s. I destroyed an s400 in it and rendered a second s400 useless as it had no missiles left. Didnt lose a single pilot or uav just sdbs.

The key was first establishing a fire control track from a triton mq4c at 31 miles from s400, passing the info to an f22 strike package then ducking down to the deck and turning off radar. There is only a minute to dump altitude and no other elint/stealth combination seems as good at fire control tracking. 2 well placed growlers are critical as well. Of course i havent planned for how fast the s400 can shoot and scoot but they would have to move in less than 5 minutes i think. Didnt find maldj useful vs s400. I attached a screenshot.

The sa21 is not yet visible in the screenshot as this is before the triton picks it up.



SeaQueen -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/14/2020 12:50:40 AM)

Without watching the scenario play through it's hard to say what you're doing wrong, but I'll offer some suggestions:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK
Scenario 1, I had two F-22s with all radars off and only internal AAMs flying at 35,000 feet. An SA-21b launch was detected (actually a bunch) from a site and radar in southern Crimea about 150-175 NM from the F-22s and the missiles started heading right for me. I ordered the F-22s to turn perpendicular to the missile vector but they kept tracking. Eventually the missiles struck (1st missile in one case and 2nd in the other) both F-22s and destroyed them.



By turning the aircraft perpendicular to the incoming missiles you actually made their radar situation worse by exposing their side RCS. The SA-21 only needs a sniff of them to fire, depending on what the ROE are. If they're set to "engage unknowns"/"Weapons Free" then it's very likely that they'll open up with minimal provocation. Once the ground based radar has guided the missiles to a sufficient range, their seeker head turns on, and at that point RCS probably won't help you.

SA-21s were specifically designed with countering stealth aircraft in mind, so one ought not to expect to be able to easily confront them with stealth aircraft alone. Significant support is necessary. Even that is subject to problems. Was the SA-21 looking into the EA-18G's jamming beam or were they out of alignment? The effectiveness of jamming is much decreased when out of alignment. You want the SA-21 to have to stare right into the jamming beams of the Growlers and the MALDs in order to engage the F-22s.

quote:


So same question, how does a ground based radar 100 nm away detect low observable missiles at 30ft altitude. Wouldn't the curvature of the earth prevent that? Also, how are the migs seeing them from 150-Nm away? I should add that the hit probability for the SA-21s was about 75%. The AA-12s used by the Migs was about 80%. I get the latter as IR is IR and it is a missile.


If the curvature of the earth was always an issue, you'd always be horizon limited. That is not necessarily the case.
Depending on the frequency of the radar and its output power, however, the atmosphere actually functions as a waveguide, allowing for much longer radar propagation. The MiG-31 has a very powerful radar, and the SA-21 does too. Scenario 2 leaves me with the same questions regarding jammer alignment.




50caliberGhost -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/14/2020 12:55:17 PM)

Seaqueen is right about confronting sa21 with far more aircraft types than stealth. ea18g is necessary. maldj from any platform is very useful too i see that now. A global hawk can get a weapons grade track on sa21 by observing the missile site defend against maldj. Then the f22's or f35's can fire from extreme range, again with ea18g close jamming.

I could only guess that an f22 could get picked up at the 100nm+ ranges mikeCK mentioned by having radar on and no jamming in the area, though you said it was off.



SeaQueen -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/14/2020 1:36:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50caliberGhost
Seaqueen is right about confronting sa21 with far more aircraft types than stealth. ea18g is necessary. maldj from any platform is very useful too i see that now. A global hawk can get a weapons grade track on sa21 by observing the missile site defend against maldj. Then the f22's or f35's can fire from extreme range, again with ea18g close jamming.


I smack 'em all the time with F-35s w/SDB. Bonus points if you can do it with GBU-12. [sm=sterb011.gif]

Also, think in terms of combinations of weapons. Maybe the solution isn't just one thing? Maybe you could do it with shots of GBU-54 and AARGM timed to arrive simultaneously, for example, just to name one option. The God of War rewards creativity. Play with it. Different speeds, different flight profiles, different altitudes...

RJs are great for locating SAM sites. Maybe fighters + JASSM/CALCM is an option?

As I mentioned before, geometry matters. Timing matters. There's always saturation when style fails (i.e. How many have I got versus how many have you got?).

I like to think of Predators as a decoy system, but people frown on that... just sayin'

[sm=00000619.gif][sm=00000619.gif][sm=00000619.gif]



LargeDiameterBomb -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/15/2020 3:55:06 AM)

I don't think it's a coincidence that the AARGM-ER is just starting to be integrated and procured for US assets, and I think that the emergence of very long range SAMs such as the SA-21 and radar complexes (Not used here in the Russian sense of the word) such as the Nebo-M with it's VHF-Band (A-/B-Band) and UHF-/L-Band (C-/D-Band) and S-Band (E-/F-Band) AESA radars is not a coincidence either.

I have no doubt that
using the VHF radar, which is able to detect and track the target from very long range (Since fighter-sized aircraft cannot be designed as VLO with such a huge wavelength), although it's track is very non-precise,
and then using info from that radar to control the emissions of the L-Band AESA which then focus a lot of it's radiated energy by digital beam-steering into that "box of uncertainty" where the radar operator knows the stealthy aircraft is (I might be mistaken but I have gotten the impresion that the L-Band version can develop a weapons quality track) and to an extent also using the Nebo-M S-Band AESA in the same way.

Nebo-M might be crap, I am pretty sure the Russians are overhyping it's capabilities, but there is little doubt the principle is sound, and I would guess that the Chinese will be able to make a much better version of a system comparable to the Nebo-M in concept in 2-5 years.

It seems pretty obvious that this is a sound concept, using different radars transmitting in different spectrums working together and using each spectrum's strengths to complement each other and with ever better computer hardware and more available processing power and the emergence of different AI-techniques that will give unparalleled radar processing capability and a whole new level of sensor fusion accuracy (It's only a question of time before the Chinese military-industrial complex master very advanced sensor fusion - but we in the west can probably keep up at least for the next decade but a lot of radars will have to be replaced).
I suspect the era of "stealth rules the battlespace" is over.

Most probably we will now no longer see any more focus on making aircraft with smaller and smaller radar-cross sections, ie 6th gen aircraft will not have smaller effective RCSs than 5th gen aircraft, unless a revolution in materials science that gives a couple of orders of better absorbtion of radar signals over a much, much wider electromagnetic spectrum is right around the corner (Which seems very unprobable).



goldfinger35 -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/15/2020 8:32:35 AM)

My brief testing:
Sa-2, Hawk: Cannot get a lock on F-22/35 even at 10nm (no jamming)
Sa-5: detects F-35 at 33nm and fires at 26nm, ECM F-35 has no effect
Sa-6: detects F-35 at 4nm
Sa-10a (S-300) detects F-35 at 20nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire
Sa-20a (S-300) detects F-35 at 20nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire
Sa-20b (S-300) detects F-35 at 35nm and fires at 14nm, if F-35 uses ECM, SAM cannot fire




50caliberGhost -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/15/2020 5:14:48 PM)

Largediameterbomb: "I suspect the era of "stealth rules the battlespace" is over."

That is why i find cooperative engagement networking so important. An f35 getting a weapons lock on its own to some missile sites is dicey, but have the best surface search radars do it from a standoff distance and hand it off to an f35 package and they can fire from max distance without losses. repeatedly. And i found the late 2010s sensors of global hawk even safer than older 2000s sensors rivet joint. stealthier too. p8 poseidon has super modern sensors too but not as stealthy to avoid detection. I tested a lot of elint platforms.

Granted jassm/aargm works well once you have weapons lock but more expensive than sdb's and f22's can get away safe at max launch distance.



LargeDiameterBomb -> RE: SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22 (4/15/2020 7:55:43 PM)

I wholeheartedly agree with you. CEC is one of the most revolutionary and promising technologies that has been introduced for a very long time.

I see four relatively new important trends that becomes more powerful as time passes intersecting,
1) Increased computer power and the ability to store ever larger volumes of digital data allowing more and more autonomous vehicles, drones, drone-missiles and everything in between of all sizes getting "smarter" for the first time in history,
2) Miniturization driven by increased computing power per watt, higher output sensors per unit of volume and smaller electronics with greater precision (Which means less weight to carry and more range per fuel unit)
3) Ever faster and more robust communications between all decision-making subjects, whether machine or human
4) More precise targeting allowing smaller warheads to create more costly or deadly effects


With the above mentioned thing in mind and what you say I guess we will eventually see things along the lines of swarms of 120 very small LO electric drones with maybe 1/4 to 1/2 lbs warheads but excellent targeting capabilities being released from two low-flying F-35 forty miles from a S-400 site which has been mapped by a Global Hawk with SAR with the SAR image converted in very near real-time to a 3D-photorealistic environment which the drones use for navigation and targeting with their IR and visual light sensors, flying at maybe 40 kn one meter above ground level until they near the SA-21 site where they will spread out and attack very specific points on the vehicles to achieve mission kills, all the while communicating with each other and noting targets taken out - small shaped charges destroying missile canisters and the missiles inside them, blast-frag charges impacting radars and EO-sensors, EFP charges impacting vehicle engines, blast-frag charges impacting shelters and higher commanders by recognizing their rank insignia. That sounds like science fiction but I guess 10-15 years.

The intermediate stage is as you say something like swarms of slightly larger drone-missiles (Think a swarm of 64 short 2" inch mid-subsonic missiles with a micro-turbojet, an relatively low resolution non-cooled IR sensor and a 1 lbs HEDP warhead) released from only two F-35s in an area mapped by a Global Hawk and the F-35 and Global Hawk and drones communicating constantly (Drones predominantly communicating with other drones) for optimal targeting based on sensors on the Global Hawk or F-35s and targets already destroyed. I guess 5-7 years.

On the other hand we will eventually see the introduction of VVSHORAD micro-SAMs with 2-4 km range with around 250 to a battery that are optimized for intercepting these drone-missiles most probably using radar-based ACLOS for cost effectiveness and a very clutter- and multipath-resistant tracking-radar mounted on a high mast.

And on it goes.

However, I think AI will eventually decide the empire of the future. Not in the singularity kind of way - that's a non-important fantasy, but that the first nation to create a superintelligent AI will forever rule the world since it will make such fast progress in research and be able to stop aany other countries from achieving a Super Intelligent AI unless a country isolates it's internet pre-emptively. Right now my bets are on China even though I live in the west.

BTW, I think we will see a greater amount of weapons that are classified and whose specifications or even existence will not be made available to the public in the next decades. The AIM-260 JATM is probably only the start of that (Yes, I know, highly unorthodox systems have always been classified and their existence denied - but this I think will include systems used by regular 5th/6th gen fighters or armor, mechanized infantry and light infantry - we will see a shift to more regular weapons having the same restrictions as things that used to come from the Skunk Works.


PS. The way to destroy a SA-21 battalion is by using SDBs, lots of SDBs as distractions.
Use as many SDBs as SA-21 missiles that are available. Add another 16 SDBs for destruction of the battery or 4x JSOW A:s that are released last.
If you suspect there are Pantsir point-defense units on hand to defend the SA-21 battery, add 8x HARMs and/or 8x JSOW-As, if you have aircraft that can carry four of them each, otherwise add 32 SDBs or about 12 Tomahwks or JASSMs if available, set to arrive approx one minute after impact of other weapons to make use of their large warheads.

Always use standoff jamming support of the latest type you got access to and keep all aircraft on a straight line just in front of jamming aircraft with all aircraft pointed straight towards the SA-21 battalion until impact of weapons.

Coordinate weapons for presumed first enemy detection and destruction of SDBs and HARMs, then depending on terrain JSOW A:s or Tomahawks and JASSMs - Having Tomahawks and JASSMS impact last only if you can use terrain masking so they have a large chance of reaching their target without being destroyed - otherwise plan for impact of JSOW A:s last.
This works, but you need a hell of a lot of firepower to destroy a SA-21 battery.



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